[BTS] Sid's sushi playthrough

[Fish Man]

At the suggestion of @Pedro78 and others I've finally decided to play a sushi game, with turnsets, to take my play to the next level. I rolled a big & small map with Hannibal of Carthage, and played up to t58, when I researched maths - thinking of currency and then oracle CS. Either way, I stole 2 workers so far (made a huge difference), and founded 4 cities, building a 5th settler. There's plenty of resources in the general area and I settled 2 gold cities, each with 2 food resources. So where do I go from here, and what have I done wrong so far? I'm going to attack Lincoln (and hopefully Gandhi) with elepaults ASAP, as there's ivory in the area...and then we'll see about the rest of the continent.

 

[Pangaea]

Good luck. Sushi can be fun, but requires much micro and hours to be done well. Looks like you're going for diplo in this game, with 3 of 5 AIs hating you

What difficulty level is this? From the amount of cities, it looks like the AIs are expanding slowly.

 

[Fish Man]

Good luck. Sushi can be fun, but requires much micro and hours to be done well. Looks like you're going for diplo in this game, with 3 of 5 AIs hating you

What difficulty level is this? From the amount of cities, it looks like the AIs are expanding slowly.

Emperor. I actually restarted with same map, this time on marathon, for maximum micro

Also I selected all peacemongers intentionally, so no Shaka-esque SoD coming, my way...hopefully...

 

[Pangaea]

Heh. Go for Huge Marathon. You'll have a game to play for the next 4 months!

 

[Pangaea]

Checked out the game you posted, and after a naughty look at the actual map, I believe some settings could be better if you want to go for a more typical HoF type game. What is usually picked is "Tiny Islands" and "Islands Mixed In". That means there will be a plethora of small islands, with heaps upon heaps of sea resources, which will later fuel a powerful Sushi corp. The other setting, "Islands Mixed In", means it will be/should be possible to settle many of them with galleys.

Coastal capitals also aren't so grand for a game like this. For space games, you want a powerful buro capital to power research through the entire tech tree, that can also get out an engine and such in the late game. Perhaps you're "invested" in the current map and want to play that, which is perfectly fine, but I also generated another map with the same AIs (plus a punching bag), in case you're interested in a probably more ideal setup. It took a shocking amount of regens before a non-coastal start showed up (probably ~30 ). Looks pretty decent from a first look, I'm a sucker for floodplains, and not your typical surreal and overpowered HoF map with double gold or something like that. No idea what else is around as it's been a long and tiring day at work so I'd like to play something 'light', so I'd like to try out this one myself.

Personal flavour, but I also ticked "Choose Religions" because I'm a bit bored with the 1004th game with Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism as the ever-dominant religions. Even pre-Alpha, it should still be fairly obvious when which tech has been researched and founded a religion.

Starting location:

Spoiler :

As you can see, huts are enabled but like in your games, I turned off barbs and events. A very juicy buro spot, so I'm intending to settle in place Several unforested tiles nearby, so I hope one of them has "proper" food.

 

[Fish Man]

Checked out the game you posted, and after a naughty look at the actual map, I believe some settings could be better if you want to go for a more typical HoF type game. What is usually picked is "Tiny Islands" and "Islands Mixed In". That means there will be a plethora of small islands, with heaps upon heaps of sea resources, which will later fuel a powerful Sushi corp. The other setting, "Islands Mixed In", means it will be/should be possible to settle many of them with galleys.

Coastal capitals also aren't so grand for a game like this. For space games, you want a powerful buro capital to power research through the entire tech tree, that can also get out an engine and such in the late game. Perhaps you're "invested" in the current map and want to play that, which is perfectly fine, but I also generated another map with the same AIs (plus a punching bag), in case you're interested in a probably more ideal setup. It took a shocking amount of regens before a non-coastal start showed up (probably ~30 ). Looks pretty decent from a first look, I'm a sucker for floodplains, and not your typical surreal and overpowered HoF map with double gold or something like that. No idea what else is around as it's been a long and tiring day at work so I'd like to play something 'light', so I'd like to try out this one myself.

Personal flavour, but I also ticked "Choose Religions" because I'm a bit bored with the 1004th game with Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism as the ever-dominant religions. Even pre-Alpha, it should still be fairly obvious when which tech has been researched and founded a religion.

Starting location:

Spoiler :

As you can see, huts are enabled but like in your games, I turned off barbs and events. A very juicy buro spot, so I'm intending to settle in place Several unforested tiles nearby, so I hope one of them has "proper" food.

I went back to the standard speed save because I haven't the patience for marathon =P

@Pedro78 :

At 50 BC and took out Lincoln...but already super far behind this example. I don't know what I'm doing wrong...I'm doing the right tech path, building the right improvements, oracle'd civil service, got an academy in my cap, stole 2 workers, and am conquering my way across the continent with elepaults as fast as possible. Still, I'm not even in the Renaissance, only have 10 cities, and maintenance is beginning to cripple. Gandhi should be a piece of cake, but Darius already has longbows...why am I so slow?

 

[Pedro78]

At 50 BC and took out Lincoln...but already super far behind this example. I don't know what I'm doing wrong...I'm doing the right tech path, building the right improvements, oracle'd civil service, got an academy in my cap, stole 2 workers, and am conquering my way across the continent with elepaults as fast as possible. Still, I'm not even in the Renaissance, only have 10 cities, and maintenance is beginning to cripple. Gandhi should be a piece of cake, but Darius already has longbows...why am I so slow?

The starting location isn't nearly as good in your game as in Snaaty's game, but you're still really slow, especially as this is only Emperor (right?)

To answer your last question, I'd guess wrong tech path, wrong tile improvements, wrong worker priorities, sloppy city management... All these wrong decisions do snowball into slow conquest and slow tech pace. I'm not saying you're doing everything wrong, but that you still have a lot to learn about this game. There is no recipe to a great space race -- everything depends on the map. You cannot just learn Snaaty's strategy by heart and replicate it on every map -- it doesn't work like that.

I think that your main problem is that you always play the same type of game with the same objectives (i.e. very easy maps with the goal of an early space launch). You have to play various games to learn the game mechanics. I don't know Snaaty (wasn't on the forums yet when he was still active) but I'm sure that he's played dozens games (on different maps) before he reached that level. Playing harder games help you understand the game mechanics, it allows you to get a feel for what works and what doesn't, for what's "good" and what's "better".

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not "blaming" you for wanting to play great space games, but I'm telling you that if you really want to pull off impressive launch dates you have to go through some kind of a learning path. And the best way to do that, imo, is to play forum (deity) games (not necessarily posted by you) where you compare your play to others. Personnally, it's losing games and watching people hopelessly outplay me that made me progress the most in this game.

If you don't know where to start, and are not confident with deity yet, I'd recommend playing BornInCantaloup's Elizabeth game (thread name is Just a Random map). Map is very suited for space and you'll find a great write-up by BiC himself. You can also play some games Lain showcased on his YT channel and compare with the video. And there will always be people giving you good advice and pointing out your mistakes. You just can't ask "how do you land a T200 Spaceship?" -- because there's simply no answer to this question, it's just about rolling a good map and having a good understanding of the game

If I find some motivation, I'll do a quick run to 1AD on your Hannibal map (haven't opened the saves yet)


Edit -
Played a few turns, not gonna play further.

Things about the map:

• A horrible fishing start, but a wet corn + pigs spot 2NE of starting position. And you chose to SIP??
• No horses
• Lincoln's capital on a hill
• AIs very far away
• Only 6 AIs? On a standard map, max AIs for HoF is 10. Should be 10 AIs on the map. Not sure about the setup, but it looks like it is not "massive continents", which it should be. Should also be tiny islands & islands mixed in if you want Sushi later.
• Should have at least 1-2 low-mid peaceweight tech traders (Willem/Peter) that don't give you -1 diplo penalty every time you DoW Linc/Gandhi, or have some neutral AI just to worker-farm.

Now this is still a very rich map, but it doesn't really give you the best conditions to get a super-early space victory. @1AD you should have at least 15 cities, Knights and be rolling over the map -- Oracling CS doesn't do you any good, Oracling Machinery would be much better (and less risky). Should probably be doing 400+ bpt aswell. And work on GPP...

 

[Snowbird]

Seafood start and next to no whipping.... well, does not make anyone fast, lol.

Overall, I think you fundamentally miss the point that fast space is not different from fast domination. You get to domination limit as fast as possible and then do space. (well, roughly that way). So if you Rome you should get to ~20 cities with praets or praets and cats and not with cuirassiers.

My best suggestion is to learn war and especially abusing AI in war. Or try culture, I've heard fast cultural wins do not involve wars...

 

[Fish Man]

The starting location isn't nearly as good in your game as in Snaaty's game, but you're still really slow, especially as this is only Emperor (right?)

To answer your last question, I'd guess wrong tech path, wrong tile improvements, wrong worker priorities, sloppy city management... All these wrong decisions do snowball into slow conquest and slow tech pace. I'm not saying you're doing everything wrong, but that you still have a lot to learn about this game. There is no recipe to a great space race -- everything depends on the map. You cannot just learn Snaaty's strategy by heart and replicate it on every map -- it doesn't work like that.

I think that your main problem is that you always play the same type of game with the same objectives (i.e. very easy maps with the goal of an early space launch). You have to play various games to learn the game mechanics. I don't know Snaaty (wasn't on the forums yet when he was still active) but I'm sure that he's played dozens games (on different maps) before he reached that level. Playing harder games help you understand the game mechanics, it allows you to get a feel for what works and what doesn't, for what's "good" and what's "better".

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not "blaming" you for wanting to play great space games, but I'm telling you that if you really want to pull off impressive launch dates you have to go through some kind of a learning path. And the best way to do that, imo, is to play forum (deity) games (not necessarily posted by you) where you compare your play to others. Personnally, it's losing games and watching people hopelessly outplay me that made me progress the most in this game.

If you don't know where to start, and are not confident with deity yet, I'd recommend playing BornInCantaloup's Elizabeth game (thread name is Just a Random map). Map is very suited for space and you'll find a great write-up by BiC himself. You can also play some games Lain showcased on his YT channel and compare with the video. And there will always be people giving you good advice and pointing out your mistakes. You just can't ask "how do you land a T200 Spaceship?" -- because there's simply no answer to this question, it's just about rolling a good map and having a good understanding of the game

If I find some motivation, I'll do a quick run to 1AD on your Hannibal map (haven't opened the saves yet)


Edit -
Played a few turns, not gonna play further.

Things about the map:

• A horrible fishing start, but a wet corn + pigs spot 2NE of starting position. And you chose to SIP??
• No horses
• Lincoln's capital on a hill
• AIs very far away
• Only 6 AIs? On a standard map, max AIs for HoF is 10. Should be 10 AIs on the map. Not sure about the setup, but it looks like it is not "massive continents", which it should be. Should also be tiny islands & islands mixed in if you want Sushi later.
• Should have at least 1-2 low-mid peaceweight tech traders (Willem/Peter) that don't give you -1 diplo penalty every time you DoW Linc/Gandhi, or have some neutral AI just to worker-farm.

Now this is still a very rich map, but it doesn't really give you the best conditions to get a super-early space victory. @1AD you should have at least 15 cities, Knights and be rolling over the map -- Oracling CS doesn't do you any good, Oracling Machinery would be much better (and less risky). Should probably be doing 400+ bpt aswell. And work on GPP...

Seafood start and next to no whipping.... well, does not make anyone fast, lol.

Overall, I think you fundamentally miss the point that fast space is not different from fast domination. You get to domination limit as fast as possible and then do space. (well, roughly that way). So if you Rome you should get to ~20 cities with praets or praets and cats and not with cuirassiers.

My best suggestion is to learn war and especially abusing AI in war. Or try culture, I've heard fast cultural wins do not involve wars...

Thanks for the advice.

@Pedro78 : I don't think I'm quite brave enough for deity yet, even with such a powerful leader and start. But yeah...I'll have to try some of these maps you posted myself, compare my progress to theirs. The problem I have is just that I don't get what to build and improve and where to settle, to emulate the success that they have, no matter how hard I try - even after I read their writeups.

@Snowbird : Yeah, that's part of the problem. I remain, even after all this experience, too attached to short-term economic stability for my own good. Sitting on 10 cities I could expand to 30, but if it means delaying my research for a bit or making a detour to military tech I'm hard-pressed to make a move...something I'm still learning to overcome.

Anyways, new map with a promising start: big&small, massive continent, tiny islands mixed in, 8 rival AIs. Currently I stole 3 workers and am considering choking next-door neighbors with chariots. Beelining HAs; hope I can make it before AIs get metal or feudalism...

 

[Snowbird]

Choking?.. at that dif level you want AI's make workers and settle cities for you...

 

[Pedro78]

I don't think I'm quite brave enough for deity yet, even with such a powerful leader and start

It's not about being brave, it's about learning the game. Doesn't even necessarily have to be deity -- the idea is to play the same map that others played before you (or are currently playing) to see clearly what you're doing wrong and what can be improved. These B&S maps are among the most complex maps you can find -- there's so much to do it's very hard to optimize and it's not good for learning. You don't teach quantum mechanics in middle school. You have to play some "standard" maps on a higher difficulty, where choices are more restricted so it's easier to tell whether a move is "bad" or "good".

 

[elmurcis]

Things about the map:

• A horrible fishing start, but a wet corn + pigs spot 2NE of starting position. And you chose to SIP??

Even with "all-in Coastal games" in my favorite game style (Every of 17 AI capital is coastal in my games and >90% of other cities too) - this is average coastal start... Spices here "screams" for settling on

 

[Pangaea]

This game is like the old saying: "Easy to learn, hard to master".

Think you're doing okay to be honest. Of course when comparing to the very best players with double gold HoF-style maps, you're going to be slow. They would be too if comparing a poor map with a great one. You're teching Education though pre-1AD, which certainly isn't poor. I'm playing the map I posted above instead of this one, a much better capital spot (but not gold), and probably have roughly the same techs you do. Some more cities though.

I've not looked very thoroughly, but a few relatively minor things that also add material to the snowball

• You can trade away clam and fish for an extra +4 per turn. Every bit like this helps. Even just an extra gpt. Early in the game you can often trade away health for happy resources, and early in the game you don't need health much anyway, so even if you don't have surplus resources, you can trade some away for gpt or happies.
• You haven't set the espionage slider/weight in the Espionage screen. That means you're gaining 1 point on 4 guys, instead of 4 points per turn on Mansa. The latter would probably mean you had tech view on him already, which will help you to plan what techs to go for.
• You haven't got out an explore boat. Partly due to this, you have no foreign trade routes currently, nor any settled island cities. Without foreign trade routes, island cities help greatly, because you get 2 trade routes from them to the mainland, instead of the usual 1
• I mentioned this earlier, and Pedro did too above: the map settings really aren't ideal for a fast space race. You want an inland capital with a juicy river, and for this particular map type, it's better with tiny islands and islands mixed in. Massive continent too, more chance of having everybody in one place, but normal continent can be fine. Most like these settings mean there aren't as many island with as much sea food, which will hurt in 100 turns when Sushi corp isn't as strong as it can and should be.
• With only peaceful-ish AIs, they basically all get along, religious setup notwithstanding. It can be helpful with a warmonger to attract some hatred, and with lucky positioning of this AI, you have a perfect worker stealing target. You can DOW all day long, and nobody will blink
• Looks like the AIs were fairly far away. This means it takes longer to get to them for stealing workers and for later proper wars, and once you do, maintenance costs will be relatively high.

Some points to chew over after a brief look at the save. But like said initially, I think you're doing quite fine tbh. Some things to improve upon, but it's not like you suck or anything like that. Many small details add up to bigger gains, however.

 

[Pedro78]

Even with "all-in Coastal games" in my favorite game style (Every of 17 AI capital is coastal in my games and >90% of other cities too) - this is average coastal start... Spices here "screams" for settling on

Islands maps are certainly fun (especially if you can't get the GLH), but this isn't one. I really don't like the spices settle here -- misses out on the pigs.

 

[Fish Man]

OK, after all was said and done, I played the Ethiopia game to the end. Turn 228 space win - albeit with state property, because I took one look at the islands and decided 1. Sushi wasn't worth and 2. I didn't want a week's worth of micro.

I think the major lesson I learned here was expand aggressively. It almost hurt to tech HBR instead of something juicier like priesthood for Oracle or currency first, and having 15 cities before the BCs ended really tanked my economy in the short run (at one point I was in the red with 0% research), but it paid off shortly thereafter - I had 400 bpt by 1AD and it only went up from there. Also, don't be put off if things take a long time to research in the beginning of the game - HBR was 15+ turns, and I had to literally build research to finish currency, which made me think there was no way I was going to sub-250 this, but having 30 fully developed cities really makes the techs fly by at the end of the game. Finally, worker-stealing makes a world of difference - I stole 4, and the 240 hammers saved pulled me waaay ahead of any emperor difficulty game I've every played before. The diplo didn't matter because I decimated my targets later anyways.

Oh, and also Mansa randomly peacevassaled to me in the middle of the game and fed me optics, astronomy, biology, medicine . So there's 5-ish turns off, I guess.

 

[Pangaea]

Congrats with a very nice win

True, Sushi games is excruciatingly micro heavy, and can quickly feel more like boring work than fun. I have several games like that unfinished, because at some point it got too boring. There are so darn many islands. Then you need a heap of galleys/boats, hundred(s) settlers, then later, hundred(s) of Mining Inc executives, and then hundred(s) of Sushi executives. Several wonders you basically need to get proper good dates. If somebody builds it on the other side of the world, or worse yet, on another continent, you can be a bit screwed. Then you have the sometimes seemingly impossible task of keeping the economy afloat when spreading corporations. Maintenance goes through the roof, and spreading the corps costs too. It's not easy to keep on top of all this. State Property may not be as powerful, especially on slow game speeds, but it's much easier to handle in terms of micro. Go to Caste, workshop everything -> Win

 

[Pedro78]

Several wonders you basically need to get proper good dates. If somebody builds it on the other side of the world, or worse yet, on another continent, you can be a bit screwed.

True, but it has nothing to do with going for corps instead of SP (except the Kremlin which you paradoxically don't usually need to build when going SP, but that's a wonder you can't miss anyway in this kind of game)

Maintenance goes through the roof, and spreading the corps costs too. It's not easy to keep on top of all this

STRIKE economy seems to be the ultimate answer to this, but it makes it all even more micro-heavy and requires a lot of planning.

 

[Pangaea]

Suppose that's one of the new exploits findings in the massive space thread? Doesn't sound like something I'd like to try.

Space games can definitely be fun as you get to explore the whole tech tree for once, but these massive Sushi games can be pretty brutal to finish. Like was mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not the best environment to learn the game either. Just too much to consider and too complex. But when playing more 'normal' games, you can learn to appreciate these things more, and how to handle these more complex and demanding situations.

 

[Pedro78]

I wouldn't call strike-economy an exploit as it does require a tremendous amount of work and planning in order to produce the expected results. Some other things are exploit-ish, though.

Yeah these "space games" are very complex. Playing "normal" games to a space victory can be a very good way to learn the game mechanics though.