Simplification?

While I'm slightly concerned that the tech tree seems smaller (especially the Classic Era) it's important to remember that we'll also be teching 'civics' with our culture at the same time. So, instead of just one tech tree, it's like we have two.
 
Who says that capturing a capital will vassalise an enemy civ, ..?

My humble self, noone else :D I just suggested that it could be like that. We heard that capturing capitals is enough to achieve victory by combat. Most assume this means it's "game over" for a civ without capital, but that's not necessarily the only way it could be.

Also, it could still be possible to move your capital, if they find a way to avoid "capital chasing". For instance they could only allow it during peace, problem solved! ;)
 
I think less tech in the tech tree is better compared to civ 4 because it makes each tech more important. If it than takes longer to reach a tech, it is really an important choice if you tech pikeman or maceman, because it can decide weather you are able to defend against your opponent or not. In civ4 it was too easy to just get both in a relatively small time scale.
 
Semmel, what's your preferred game speed? On marathon and higher difficulties 20 turns can be a painfully long time if your enemy has riflemen and you don't. Often enough I had to leave the AI her aquisitions and beg for peace, because I couldn't think about a counteroffensive for 30+ turns.
 
I'm pretty sure that they have stated that vassals are out. There are city states and puppet states instead.
 
I don't think they stated that vassels are out. You still have to pay maintanence for puppets so it won't replace vassals, if vassal states were gone you would be back to options of civ3 where you had to simply raze all captured cities so as to not destroy your economy at a certain point of expansion. So we don't know whether they will be in or not, its 50/50.
 
You still have to pay maintanence for puppets
Source? I do not believe this to be the case.

We also don't know if city maintenance even still exists or not.

I do not remember the source, but I am reasonably sure (but not 100%) that they explicitly announced that vassals were gone in one of the early game magazine interview/previews.
 
Semmel, what's your preferred game speed? On marathon and higher difficulties 20 turns can be a painfully long time if your enemy has riflemen and you don't. Often enough I had to leave the AI her aquisitions and beg for peace, because I couldn't think about a counteroffensive for 30+ turns.

Well, I like to play normal maps on normal speed and huge maps on epic speed, i don't really have a preference. I am playing on Emporer, but maybe I will try immortal sooner or later. But you are correct, on epic, each tech counts more than on normal speed. But even with epic in a later game with a huge amount of cities, the research time for one tech melts pretty fast.
 
Who are these "mainstream gamers" that everyone seems to be talking about and refer to? I'm actually not so sure they exist (too a large extent) any longer on the PC.
The huge new mainstream/casual gaming market in Free-to-play MMO's and Facebook-style web games is almost entirely a PC market.
 
That's true. However I tend to count those consumers into a whole other category than the average PC gamer. Catering for example the Civ series to them would require rethinking pretty much everything that makes the game great.
 
Of course Civ 5 is simplified so they reach mainstream gamers. This I expected long ago; it should not be surprising they are doing so. Mainstream gamers see micro-management (even if there is very little of it) as an absolute chore; and some see having a stack as horribly complicated and difficult to comprehend; and with Firaxis' business model of changing the game according to mainstream gamers' wishes that don't correspond to the Civilization model (instead of improving the model), this is why they are heading in that direction (with the bad help of 2K).

Hold your trust Tom. In the end we will have a decent and possibly grand game with CIV V. I can only hope for it to achieve the depth and enjoyability of BTS after a few expansions, so must you!!
 
I'll just say I really have little confidence in this game. When I heard this announcement, I was ready to buy Civilization V the day it was released; however, reading the way they are stripping down the game, I'll just wait and see.

I don't understand why they are aiming for an "average gamer." What individual without some passion for history/geography is going to pick up this game just to play it? Unless Firaxis is strapped for cash and the publisher is pushing for this direction, I just don't see any reason in abandoning your core audience. Yes, abandoning. Less civilizations? Less technology? Less units and gameplay features? No, I will not buy this game. I want complexity. I want authenticity. I don't want Cleopatra with big jugs. I don't care about graphics and battle engagements. I want to build a civilization, my civilization, and I want it as complex and difficult as it would and should be. So if Firaxis is satisfied catering to the "average gamer," they can shove it. I'll stick with Europa Universalis or any other game that promises me an experience beyond the load Firaxis is feeding its fans.
 
I'll just say I really have little confidence in this game. When I heard this announcement, I was ready to buy Civilization V the day it was released; however, reading the way they are stripping down the game, I'll just wait and see.

I don't understand why they are aiming for an "average gamer." What individual without some passion for history/geography is going to pick up this game just to play it? Unless Firaxis is strapped for cash and the publisher is pushing for this direction, I just don't see any reason in abandoning your core audience. Yes, abandoning. Less civilizations? Less technology? Less units and gameplay features? No, I will not buy this game. I want complexity. I want authenticity. I don't want Cleopatra with big jugs. I don't care about graphics and battle engagements. I want to build a civilization, my civilization, and I want it as complex and difficult as it would and should be. So if Firaxis is satisfied catering to the "average gamer," they can shove it. I'll stick with Europa Universalis or any other game that promises me an experience beyond the load Firaxis is feeding its fans.

I posted a lot about this in the "downside of iupt" thread. The game isn't any simpler, if anything I'm worried about certain complexities that might make micromanagement a bit too much to handle, like how cities can expand 3 times outward yet will take a long time to reach that, causing a lot of sharing of tiles, and a lot of switching of tiles between cities.

There is a significant difference between "simple" and "lack of depth". Civ5 is showing a lot of depth without the cost of adding much complexity. Complex is bad. Depth is good.


To be honest, Civ really is a war game. Sid Meier originally made Civ1 with a more in-depth Risk in mind. In Civ4 you build things to either increase science, or increase production. That's it.
 
I'll just say I really have little confidence in this game. When I heard this announcement, I was ready to buy Civilization V the day it was released; however, reading the way they are stripping down the game, I'll just wait and see.

I don't understand why they are aiming for an "average gamer." What individual without some passion for history/geography is going to pick up this game just to play it? Unless Firaxis is strapped for cash and the publisher is pushing for this direction, I just don't see any reason in abandoning your core audience. Yes, abandoning. Less civilizations? Less technology? Less units and gameplay features? No, I will not buy this game. I want complexity. I want authenticity. I don't want Cleopatra with big jugs. I don't care about graphics and battle engagements. I want to build a civilization, my civilization, and I want it as complex and difficult as it would and should be. So if Firaxis is satisfied catering to the "average gamer," they can shove it. I'll stick with Europa Universalis or any other game that promises me an experience beyond the load Firaxis is feeding its fans.
I don't understand what you're talking about at all. Based on what we do know about techs, there appear to be a similar amount (the tech tree extends further). Also, the previous benefits provided by cultural techs have been rolled into the policy tree (which makes culture far more important, and offers a much greater set of decisions than civics). On less civs, there are 18 civs in the game, which is about what Civ 4 offered at launch. This isn't even counting the greater variation between civs, now that each leader has a unique bonus instead of a combination of traits, as well as having 2 unique units/buildings. On units, we know of only three units that were in civ 4 that aren't in civ 5 (Longbowman, which have been rolled into the previously underused crossbowman under the new combat system, macemen, which have been replaced by longswordmen, and axemen, which have been rolled into spearmen). As to gameplay features, again I'd like to point out that very few have been 'removed', most of them have been reworked. Tech trading had major issues, and has been reworked into 'research agreements', which offer similar benefits (research multiplication), but with more costs (gold to start it, and it is broken if either party declares war/whenever they choose). As to the general complexity, take a look at the basic resource system. In Civ 4, you had 3 resources that were generally relevant, food, production, and commerce. In civ 5, you'll have to manage food (which now also partially feeds into science), production, gold (which now has more uses including city-state diplomacy, rush-buying at any point, rush-buying territory, and signing research treaties), culture (which is now many times more relevant with staggered expansion, potentially wider city radii, and the entire social policy tree with all of its powerful benefits. I'd agree that there hasn't been a lot of clear information released yet, but I urge you to look at Arioch's excellent site over at http://well-of-souls.com/civ/index.html
And I really don't get the civ rev reference, this game doesn't share its design at all.
 
If Firaxis is hanging their hat on this social policy feature, then color me unimpressed. I understand many of the previous features have been reworked. I understand 18 civilizations is the same as the amount shipped in Civilization 4. So, what? I have to buy the expansion packs for the new content? You say this is "improvement;" I say "retread." You say this is "depth;" I say "simple." I don't want to compare Europa Universalis with Civilization, because they are very different games, but the intricacies and detail they provide their consumers blow Civilization IV out of the water, and if things don't change, Civilization V as well.

You two should be pitchmen for Firaxis. Maybe they'll increase their sales, which apparently is their agenda.
 
If Firaxis is hanging their hat on this social policy feature, then color me unimpressed. I understand many of the previous features have been reworked. I understand 18 civilizations is the same as the amount shipped in Civilization 4. So, what? I have to buy the expansion packs for the new content? You say this is "improvement;" I say "retread." You say this is "depth;" I say "simple." I don't want to compare Europa Universalis with Civilization, because they are very different games, but the intricacies and detail they provide blow Civilization IV out of the water, and if things don't change, Civilization V as well.

You two should be pitchmen for Firaxis. Maybe they'll increase their sales, which apparently is their agenda.

They're a commercial company, duh, of course they want to increase their sales. They don't exist for the sole benefit of making you happy.
 
If Firaxis is hanging their hat on this social policy feature, then color me unimpressed. I understand many of the previous features have been reworked. I understand 18 civilizations is the same as the amount shipped in Civilization 4. So, what? I have to buy the expansion packs for the new content? You say this is "improvement;" I say "retread." You say this is "depth;" I say "simple." I don't want to compare Europa Universalis with Civilization, because they are very different games, but the intricacies and detail they provide their consumers blow Civilization IV out of the water, and if things don't change, Civilization V as well.

You two should be pitchmen for Firaxis. Maybe they'll increase their sales, which apparently is their agenda.
What? Again, you're just posting your opinion without anything behind it. They aren't "hanging their hat" on it, it's a major change that adds choices to a previous system. It seems like all you care about in games is how much detail they simulate. One of the key factors to Civ's success is that the games are accessible and fun because they *don't* try to simulate everything. Your problem isn't with Civ 5 or 'Firaxis', it's that you want a Paradox game when this is obviously not trying to be one. Civ has and will continue to thrive based on fun gameplay, not on how much detail it simulates. This game obviously isn't what you're looking for, so you can move along without having to post about how much you hate it without any justification.

BTW, of course Firaxis wants sales, it's what keeps them in existence. Paradox is the same way, whether or not you want to believe it.
 
About vassels etc, vassels are out. Puppet states are in. You do not pay maintainance on puppet states. It was said that puppet states build what they want, and you have no control in it(units/buildings). The reason you don't pay maintainance is simple, instead of capturing the city, and having to pay maintainance and having higher unhappiness, you turn it into a puppet state and have no maintainance and less unhappiness, but the disadvantage is you can't choose what they build. You do get all their gold and science, also I think rescources but that I can't remember. If you don't believe me fine, hunt down the info for yourselves then! :)
 
I understand 18 civilizations is the same as the amount shipped in Civilization 4. So, what? I have to buy the expansion packs for the new content?

I'll take Civ5's 18 leaders, with their more distinct abilities/traits, than Civ4's redundant leaders (how many negligibly better Musketmen UUs do we need?) any day.

And who said anything about expansion packs?
 
Back
Top Bottom