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Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs

cgannon64, I am happy for non-participants in the game such as yourself to enter into discussions, ask questions, and answer the quizzes etc. I would be delighted if not only the direct participants in the game learnt something from it, but others too. The more discussion over strategies etc, the better I feel.

However, with the quizzes and dotmaps, I would prefer if non-participants did give the team a small amount of time to answer the questions before replying themselves. You're welcome to try to answer the questions without reading any other responses though. It's just that I think the team members should have a chance to answer the questions for themselves, rather than having others already answer them before they get a chance to post. Once two team members have attempted the quiz, or about 24 hours passes, anyone is welcome to post their responses.

But don't worry about editing your post cgannon, it's fine. Non-participants in the game are also welcome to participate in strategy discussions etc.

Sultan, sorry you missed out on this one. If you'd like I can put you as a reserve in case someone drops out etc. You're welcome to follow the thread, and post questions, comments etc, or participate in the quizzes, under the above guidelines.

Matt_g and Renata, thanks for your answers, I'll post my answers and comment on yours once I've given a little more time for others to post theirs.

The site's email does seem a little inconsistent to me sometimes, but I've never been able to put my finger on a problem, so I might just be dreaming that up :)

-Sirp.
 
Thanks, yes, I will follow the thread and can step in if necessary.
 
When I answer these questions, I'm going to answer them off the top of my head. I'm not going to pretend to know things that I don't, and so I'm not going to give any textbook answers.

This isn't so much about being exactly technically correct, as trying to impart the amount of knowledge that is required to master the game. I don't want to leave anyone thinking that to be really good you have to know the cost of every technology off the top of your head, or anything silly like that. I know that there are a few players who are 'experts' in technology cost, but most good players just know the basics. Same with most things.

My answers are as follows:

1) The Greeks are scientific and commercial. Being scientific means that libraries, university, and research labs are half price. (research labs come so late in the game that they are of little consequence though). We also get a free technology at the start of every age. This technology is usually the top-left technology on the technology tree: monotheism in the middle ages, and nationalism in the industrial age, and I forget in the modern age.

Being commercial means that we have reduced corruption. The corruption formula is actually reasonably complicated, but we will find corruption reduced by a substantial amount. This corruption-reduction effect used to be almost unnoticable, but they doubled it a couple of patches ago, and now it is noticeable.

Additionally, the city center tile now produces more commerce than it would normally for cities above size 6. For cities size 7-12, I think it produces one extra commerce, and three extra for cities size 13+, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers.

Needless to say, being commercial means we will find ourselves with substantially more commerce than we would otherwise have.

2) The Greeks start with bronze working and the alphabet. When considering starting technologies, think about it logically: religious civilizations are going to start with ceremonial burial. Militaristic ones with warrior code. Expansionists want to expand, and granaries help with that, so hey have pottery. The Wheel and Masonry fits industrious civilizations. The alphabet matching up with commercial and bronze working with scientific isn't quite so intuitive in my mind, so you just have to learn it.

It is not uncommon for the alphabet to be traded for two other starting technologies.

3) The hoplite is the Greek unique unit. It's 1/3/1, replacing the 1/2/1 spearman. It requires bronze working to be built, and costs 20 shields, and doesn't require resources, the same as the spearman.

4) The first observation is that we are not expansionistic, so we don't get scouts. This means we will have to explore with slower units.

We do get hoplites from the very start, since we start with bronze working. This is a good advantage, but it also leaves us with difficult choices: Do we build warriors or hoplites to start with, and explore with? Certainly if we wanted the military for fighting, hoplites would be a better choice; but early military isn't just for fighting, it's largely for exploring and military police, and warriors do this just as well as hoplites at half the price.

An aggressive/expansionary approach would be to build 3 warriors first up, with two exploring, and one guarding the capital and acting as military police. Once settlers start getting built, hoplites could be produced to guard our cities at that stage.

A slightly more conservative approach would be to build 2 warriors and a hoplite, with the hoplite guarding the capital, and the warriors exploring.

These approaches will also depend on in-game factors though: How near other civilizations are, the presence of barbarians, the food/shield balance of our capital, and so forth.

Having hoplites means we should be relatively safe from attack in the early stages of the game.

Besides determining our starting technologies, our civilization traits don't do much for us early on. Being commercial won't kick in until later on, and we won't be able to build cheap libraries for a while.

5) We definitely want to discover pottery first. No matter what. It's a cheap technology, and it gives us access to the granary, which is far more powerful than any other improvement or unit this early in the game. The only possible reason you wouldn't go for pottery immediately if you didn't start with it is if you want to go for an early pyramids gambit, in which case you'd go for masonry. But that's prohibited in this game anyway.

After that, things are much much more up in the air as to what we should do. If we immediately went for iron working, we could probably get it before other civilizations, and thus trade it with them. It'd also help us to secure a source of iron early on.

We also want to try to get literature and republic fairly quickly, as changing from a despotism to a republic asap is almost always a great move, and getting literature will let us start building those cheap libraries and really get ahead in science. So, we could start going that route.

Really though, pottery is set in stone. Beyond that it's much more of a 'see as you go' mentality.

Some comments on other's answers
---

Matt_g: We'll go for pottery and a granary no matter what. This is almost always the best option.

Good points about the hoplites influencing our opening, as well as having the alphabet putting us in a good bargaining position. Trading it will require skill: we don't want to give it away, but we don't want to end up with them getting it from another civilization or researching it and us getting nothing. Ending up with two technologies for it would be ideal, getting a technology and some gold (20+) would be good too.

Note that commercial also gives reduced corruption, which is generally seen as the bigger advantage. The extra commerce in the city center starts kicking in at size 7.

Note that scientific also gives the free technology at the start of each age.

Renata: Hoplites cost 20, same as spearmen. A Unique Unit that costs more than the unit its replacing is always dubious, since unless it has substantially improved stats, it could well end up overpriced. Before Play the World, no unique unit cost more than the unit it replaced. In PTW, they ran out of unique units to make, so they started making 'super units', and then pricing them highly to make sure they weren't overpowered.

Carthage's Numidian Mercenary is 2/3/1 but costs 30 shields. In my view, the extra attack point is useless, and I'd prefer the 20 shield hoplite any day.

cgannon64: Good guesses on the technologies :)

Also you're completely right about the pottery/granary thing.

If there is one thing I want people to learn about this phase of the game, it's the power of granaries and maximized food.

-Sirp.
 
If my addendums get annoying just tell me...

Originally posted by Sirp
This technology is usually the top-left technology on the technology tree: monotheism in the middle ages, and nationalism in the industrial age, and I forget in the modern age.


Computers if I'm not mistaken...

The Wheel and Masonry fits industrious civilizations.

AFAIK, only Japanese get the wheel, as a substitute ability for the usual militaristic tech of warrior code.

The alphabet matching up with commercial and bronze working with scientific isn't quite so intuitive in my mind, so you just have to learn it.

Commercial: I think it is because early Sumerian, Phoenician, and some other writing systems were developed to keep records of trade transactions.
Scientific: Think of the technical knowledge and expertise required to make an alloy.

An aggressive/expansionary approach would be to build 3 warriors first up, with two exploring, and one guarding the capital and acting as military police. Once settlers start getting built, hoplites could be produced to guard our cities at that stage.

What order does the city guard come out? I usually make it the third (or fourth) warrior.

5) We definitely want to discover pottery first. No matter what. It's a cheap technology, and it gives us access to the granary, which is far more powerful than any other improvement or unit this early in the game. The only possible reason you wouldn't go for pottery immediately if you didn't start with it is if you want to go for an early pyramids gambit, in which case you'd go for masonry. But that's prohibited in this game anyway.

This is a fascinating cornerstone of your thinking, one I've never considered before. Pottery is often the first pop out of a goody hut. I'm going to try this next game...

I just want to give you another :goodjob: on your commentaries, Sirp. In the monarch game you inspired me to start I am winning the histograph (considerably larger nation than the others- your settler first mentality really helped me secure land), even on technology (at education/gunpowder), and with a big enough army that when I tell them to leave or declare war, they leave. THANKS!!!

(I don't know if you ever encountered "The CivGuru" but you've got him beat!)
 
Sultan, thank you for your kind words :) I'm glad to hear your monarch game is going well!

I think everything you said is accurate, except for the computers thing which JMB is right about. I really do rarely get to play in the modern age. I've never discovered a future tech, never been nuked, never nuked anyone, and don't know what half the discoveries allow!

The order the city guard comes out is a bit of a 'play-it-by-ear' thing. You have to look for the presence of barbarians, and other civilizations, the directions which may be explored in and from which enemies may come, the time at which the capital needs MP (which varies according to the availability of food, and the difficulty level).

If you happen to get a conscript from a village it also changes things a little.

I try to avoid building more than three military units first up, because a fourth will give you five units altogether, including your worker, which means you'll be over the limit and have to start paying maintenance. It might still be worth doing, but by this stage I usually want to get my granary going.

If you're researching something, you can never get it out of a village. Pottery isn't a good thing to get out of a village anyhow: you'll research it quick yourself. Also, on the higher levels, you'll want to be a little more reserved about entering villages if you're not expansionist. The chances of getting something out of them are reduced, and the chances of there being barbarians in there are increased, and your bonus against barbarians is reduced. On monarch it's still a good idea in most circumstances, but on emperor and deity it starts becoming a much more dubious idea.

-Sirp.
 
Good start to what looks to be yet another informative game. Couple things, I don't think the last free tech is computers but rather Rocketry.

As far as relying on huts for free tech may not be the answer. Pottery is the cheapest available tech and if it pops will effectivly be less valuable to you. The best way to get a more expensive tech, from a hut, is to research the cheapest tech. What you are researching will never pop from a hut.

Also, popping huts too close to home without many units can be cause for concern. Barbs can cause a major setbacks if they come at the least opportune times. Not being expansionist opens your civ up to barbs.


Hotrod

Edit: Looks like Sirp was posting as I was writing :lol:
 
Ok guys, I've rearranged the ordering of the roster appropriately, and it now looks like this:

Matt_g
Stormrider
Sirp
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Renata - Let's hope he has enough time!

So Matt_g, you're going to be up first! If anyone has a problem with the ordering, please let me know now. Also, if anyone needs instructions on how to upload files to the server/how to use zip, etc etc, please let me know now.

The first player will play 20 turns; every player thereafter will play 10. Especially at the start, I expect detailed reports: I want to know every time a city goes into civil disorder, and specific builds of every city early on in the game, as well as how you made people happy.

Before the game starts, we're going to have our first strategy discussion. This is our starting location:

SP4-start.jpeg


The very first phase of a game is a very short but important one: what you do before you've built your first city! This phase can last less than a turn, but it has ramifications that last the whole game.

Some questions:

(1) is this a strong/weak/indifferent starting location?
(2) list all the important features of our starting location.
(3) what do you think we should do? Found the city immediately, move the worker somewhere? Move the settler somewhere? Why? Compare to other types of possible start locations.

Let the strategic discussions begin!

-Sirp.
 
Sirp,

I agree with a lot of what you say and I too am a big fan of granaries. However, I do not think it is wise to state that pottery as the first research is "set in stone". Nothing is set in stone, in civ, it all depends on the circumstances. Consider these factors:

1) tech costs go up depending on map size and (for the human) difficulty level. I'm not sure what settings you're playing on here, but what you research depends on cost. For example, I often play on huge maps. On a huge map, in most circumstances whatever you research as the first tech takes 40 turns, even at 100% science. A similar situation is likely on large maps on emperor+ difficulty, and perhaps even on standard maps at deity. In these circumstances pottery is not what you want to research - if everything takes 40 turns, it is better to run the gambit on an expensive tech that you can use for trade. If this were the case in your game, if everything takes 40 turns to research at the start, writing would be a good tech for you to research, for its trade possibilities

2) also consider trade more carefully. Pottery is cheap to research but also cheap to buy (as long as you're not buying at second). It may befit you to consider techs that have high trade value in certain circumstances. This brings me onto:

3) neighbours and map type. If you are playing pangaea you are likely to make many contacts very quickly. In addition, expansionist neighbours (who start with pottery) are even more likely to make early contact as their scouts will cover more distance quickly, so the opportunity for early trade is even more apparent if you are playing on a map type where you wil have lots of contact.

There are also other variants to consider, for example, in always war, pottery may not be the best first tech, also, OCCs. In general, I do agree with you, Sirp, that pottery is a very sound first choice, but I do not think that setting it in stone is the best thing to do, as it is better to be flexible in civ than be guided by strict prototypes. Hope you don't mind the comments, I shall be following this with great interest
 
Nad: Sorry, when I said that it's "set in stone", I meant for the specific game we're playing: Greeks, normal world size, continents, with a prohibition on building the pyramids. Under those circumstances, I would say it is 'set in stone'.

I have played games where I didn't get it. For example, one of the Realms Beyond Epics (13 IIRC, the Iroquois mounted warriors rush one), we had 4 civilizations packed into one sardine can of an island - I made contact with India in the second turn of the game! If I had wasted time going for a granary, there would have been no free city spots left by the time it was done!

Of course, the research of pottery was a moot point in that situation, since the Iroquois are expansionistic and so I started with it.

In *that* case, the best thing to do was go straight for horseback riding, so I could take other cities by force.

However, generally, if you don't start with pottery, I can see very very few circumstances where you wouldn't start researching it. You simply don't know who you're going to run into, or what's going to happen in the game, and you do know you need it. If you don't go for pottery, what *are* you going to go for? Bronze Working (if you're not scientific)? Iron working? I really can't think of anything that comes close in terms of its potential benefits.

As for OCCs, well, my analysis doesn't include variants. You could come up with any whacky variant you want that throws half the game's common idioms out the windows. I'm just trying to teach good, solid civilization play here, and in my view there are precious few cases where going straight for pottery isn't the best thing to do.

EDIT: I also want to add that I had a very painful experience with trying another strategy all the way back in Epic 4. See the full report on my homepage. It was a Deity game, and I thought I'd make contact quickly, so I didn't research pottery. Turns out I didn't make contact quickly, and combined with me missing out on planting my capital near to a bonus food tile, I was in serious trouble. It almost cost me the game.

The ability to produce granaries is something far too important to leave to chance.

-Sirp.
 
Just to add a bit to the discussion about which modern age tech is obtained:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike B. FIRAXIS


Basically, it's a result of the algorithm used to randomly select an available tech. It's unintentionally heavily weighted towards the available tech that appears first in the list of techs (in the editor). It is supposed to select, at random, one tech from the new era that is available to the player (i.e., it has no prerequisites).

As an example, with unmodded rules you have the following available techs in the modern era with these approximate chances of being received:
91% Rocketry
1% Fission
1% Computers
7% Ecology

As you can see, Rocketry is heavily favored (simply because of it's placement within the list). This is unintentional and all 4 techs should have an equal chance of being selected. I will look into improving this for the next PTW patch.
From a recent GOTM discussion, but I couldn't find the link.
 
Originally posted by Sirp
Some questions:

(1) is this a strong/weak/indifferent starting location?
(2) list all the important features of our starting location.
(3) what do you think we should do? Found the city immediately, move the worker somewhere? Move the settler somewhere? Why? Compare to other types of possible start locations.

-Sirp.

This'll have to be short-ish. I'm supposed to be working. :p

1. I'd call it fairly strong, certainly better than average, at least in my experience, primarily because of the cow and the river.

2. A) the cow. When irrigated, will allow fast growth for settler and/or worker production without sacrificing shields. B) the river. Fresh water allows you to dispense with an aqueduct, plus adds commerce to any tiles bordering it, which can help cash flow. Unfortunately, C) the jungle will hamper early use of some of those high-commerce tiles. D) Between the jungle and the mountains, it does not appear that Athens will be able to reach size 12 unless the jungle is chopped, if located where the settler is. D) A lux that close-by is always nice. E) Coastline just visible to the east is an early help with exploration directions. F) Unfortunate shortage of bonus grassland.

3. It looks like the tile the settler is standing on is regular grassland, and I think it's a river tile (I always double-check corners like that, because it seems sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't.) If I'm right about both assumptions, I'd settle where we are; I don't see any great bonus in moving. The worker can go to the cow first turn, but that won't reveal any more land due to the mountains and hill so can be done before or after settling.

The schedule looks fine to me, and I'll be able to play unless I happen to come up in the wrong few days. And by the way, I'm a *she*. :)

Renata
 
Sorry I missed the first quiz. I will throw in my 2 cents on our first strategic discussion.

1. I would say this is a fairly good start. Cows, incense, hills, and a river are good for starting. Jungle is cleared with a little hard work. We also seem to be near a coast (maybe a lake). Coastal cities are good for commerce and can take on a strategic aspect in a non-Pangaea world where you have naval warfare, invasions, and the occasional water-based Wonder. Unless I am playing Archipelego, a coastal starting city is not a must. It also looks like there is decent terrain on the other side of the mountain range to our west.

2. There are some strong points to this location:
a) River eliminates need for aqueduct and obviously makes irrigation much easier
b) Cows are tasty and nutritious. Eating your cows every day will make your cities grow big and strong.
c) Incense smells nice and can make you friends (or cash via trading)
d) Hills = shields. Mountains do too, but they are limited until you get some serious food production going.
e) Bonus grassland is also a nice.

3. Where to start?, hmmmm....

The only exposing we could really do is to move the worker to the hill to our North. While that would display more map, the area exposed in all proabability not be good enough to justify the several turns we would lose moving our settler.

Where we are now is good and will keep 2 of the incense and their hills in our eventual 21 radius. The only other move that I can see would to settle in the jungle to our NW. That would save a square of jungle clearing, but would move our starting city out of radius range to those juicy incense hills. We could always found city number 2 to take those incense in, but that may lead to major overlap with city 1 based on the terrain and coastline we can not see.

After some deliberation, I would probably found in our starting position.

Stormrider
 
Just like Renata this will have to be short. I am supposed to be working also.
This seems to be a strong location to me also. Good combination of food and shields will make a very strong city. Is that jungle?
It kinda looks like forest to me but I'm sure the others are right. In any case I will find out when I download the save. If it's forest that will help with early builds by chopping forest once the best tiles are improved. (the cow irrigated/road and the bonus grass mined/road.) If it's jungle then there is a good chance this is on or close to the equator. That means we are going to need a ton of workers.
Having a lux in range of the capitol is always a good thing. 2 extra for trading purposes is even better.

My inclination is to found where we stand. This will give us 12 grass, (some of which might be bonus after clearing) 1BG, 3 mountains, and 4 hills in the city radius. I think that is a good mix.
I would move the worker to the cow and settle on the starting tile. Then set research to Pottery at best no deficit rate and start a Warrior for exploring purposes. Get the cow irrigated and roaded then mine and road the BG. Perhaps 3 Warriors to start (2 exploring and 1 for defense/MP) Then start a granary, or if Pottery isn't done, start a prebuild.

Got to get back to work.
Matt
 
Once again Sirp you challenge my old ways of thinking. I'm sure I know how you will answer this.

Until recently, my first move with a worker would be to build a mine (for faster shields) then a road. Now I go road first, then mine.

I should be irrigating right?

I'm also guilty of occasionally moving the citizen to the forest on the first turn to get a faster warrior build. Crazy right?
 
Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Once again Sirp you challenge my old ways of thinking. I'm sure I know how you will answer this.

Until recently, my first move with a worker would be to build a mine (for faster shields) then a road. Now I go road first, then mine.

I should be irrigating right?

I'm also guilty of occasionally moving the citizen to the forest on the first turn to get a faster warrior build. Crazy right?

I'm not Sirp :D, but I'll put in my two cents. I will always irrigate a bonus food in the early going unless either of the following applies:

- There is tons of food at the city site. Example: 4-cow start, floodplains with 2 wheats and a cow besides.
- The food bonus is only +1 (wine or game), and it's on plains. In this case the despotism penalty kills it, so I might as well mine for the shields.

You need both food and shields to turn out settlers and workers, and you need settlers and workers to expand. Food tends to be harder to come by so in most cases is best to maximize.

As far as the forest chop for warriors, it's just too much waste. A forest chop gets you a maximum of ten shields, and warriors only cost ten. Given that the city itself is going to be producing at least one (and probably more) shield per turn, all this does is waste shields. Better to wait until you're building something bigger, so all ten forest shields go into your production box.

Renata
 
Not a chop- I mean that you move a citizen on the city screen off of the plains/grassland and onto a forest space where there is one food and two shields per turn. No I would never chop for a unit.
 
Ah, ok, gotcha. Good to know. :)

Renata
 
1 & 2) The starting location is a strong one. When you choose a starting location, these are the main considerations:

- Access to fresh water. This is the most important consideration.
- Access to bonus food tiles.
- Coastal access.
- The general strength of other tiles in the area
- Defensive positioning

Note that access to luxuries is not on the list. Having luxuries nearby is *not* an important consideration in my mind. If luxuries are near enough that you can see them before you found your first city, then you're going to get them anyway long before they become very important.

The first two considerations complement each other. Lots of bonus food starts to lose its appeal if there is no fresh water. Fresh water isn't quite as good if there's no bonus food to let it grow fast. If you have checks next to both of thse, then you already know you have a strong starting location.

That the bonus food tile is cattle is icing on the cake. This also means shields early on. If it was wheat instead of cattle though, it wouldn't make that much difference. One shield lost is insubstantial compared to one food lost at this stage. This starting location could obviously be better with more bonus food tiles, but at least one good one is what you want, more are icing on the cake.

It's good to see there's also a bonus grassland nearby. Hopefully there'll be more, but there's only one tile in the radius of our starting location that could possibly be more grassland.

Other features are: The coastline or lake to the east, which needs investigating early. The incense nearby is going to be a good bonus once we get our empire going a little. Then there's, ahh yes, the mountains and jungle. Jungle often hides good land underneath, but cutting it does take a long time. We may have to cut some early on to get good land going.

Mountains will be reasonably good in the long term, as it means that we'll have some strong shield tiles. However, at the moment they are useless for us, and make our land more difficult to defend.

3) It's often good to move the worker first to get some extra intelligence about the situation before deciding where to found the capital. However in this case, we are next to a river and a cow, and I can't see any nearby starting location that could possibly be better. The only places that *might* be better are one space north, *if* there is more bonus food up there, and two spaces south-west, if there is more bonus food to the south-west.

However, opening moves are about strategically choosing the best starting location for the capital; not throwing away moves based on wishful thinking. Also, moving the worker onto the tile you intend to improve before founding the city, just to 'look and see' if there's anything that could possibly make you change your mind, is often a good idea (but not always: Once you found the city, you can see further and might change your mind about where you want the worker to go), however in this case the worker can't see anything more by moving onto the cattle.

Sooooo in this case, we'd want to found the city where the settler stands, and move the worker onto the cattle ready to irrigate. The worker can move first, or the settler can found first; it doesn't matter.

---

Comments on what other said:

I was impressed by the responses.

Renata: Good observation of the features. Yes it's a regular grassland, and it's a river tile. I believe that the 'corners' of rivers are only not considered river tiles at the start of a river. However, if unsure it's always good to check. To those unaware, you can check if a tile is considered next to a river by right-clicking on it and seeing if it produces one more gold than an equivalent tile that's not next to a river.

You're also *right* on track with irrigation.

Stormrider: Great answers; right on track.

Matt_g: Also good stuff. Good observation on us going to need lots of workers. It's unfortunate we're not industrious.

Also good idea with the prebuild for a granary. (Although ermm....our best prebuild option may be a hoplite!)

Sultan: I think you answered your own question :) I sometimes do go for more shields early on. To build my granary faster so it can get more food faster :)

-Sirp.
 
Time to get this game rolling!

Matt_g has been appointed the first ruler of the Greek people. His advisors and strategists have discussed the path the Greek people should take towards establishing a powerful civilization.

The Game

Your reign will last 20 turns. Each player after this will have a 10 turn reign. (Yes these reigns are short for the start of a game, but in a training day game, I think it's important to focus alot on the start).

All files should be uploaded zipped up with the filename SP4-<year>.zip

where <year> is the year the game is in, xxxxBC or xxxxAD.

The roster:

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- on deck
Sirp
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Renata - Let's hope *she* has enough time!

Good luck!

-Sirp.
 
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