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Yeah, when you have more happy than unhappy people they'll riot and it's called carnaval...
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Yeah, when you have more happy than unhappy people they'll riot and it's called carnaval...
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Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs
- Thread starter Sirp
- Start date
Stormrider: Since you only just got PTW, it's not unlikely that your CD would already have 1.14f on it. Just remember (and sorry for repeating myself but I'm kinda paranoid about this!) you have to have 1.14f to play. NOT 1.21f.
Shaesha, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking and if Renata already covered it.
On Monarch, the first two citizens in a city will be content. Every citizen thereafter will be unhappy, unless you 'give them a reason' to be otherwise.
Content citizens indeed don't count. A happy citizen will counteract an unhappy citizen. So if you have 1 happy citizen, 1 content, and 1 unhappy, the city will be fine. If you have 8 content citizens, and 1 unhappy citizen, the city will riot, since it has more unhappy citizens (1) than happy (0).
Generally, you should start getting familiar with when a city will riot. I.e. when it grows, or when you remove soldiers from it in despotism. I know that some people check the city every turn at this stage in the game. Soon though, it should progress to being 'second nature' to you. "I get two content citizens for free, and there is a soldier in there, so when the city grows to size three, I'll be fine. I don't have to check on it until it's size four" you say to yourself. You don't do this later in the game though; it becomes too complex to work out. Then uhh.....you either (1) check every city every turn. (2) accept that some cities will riot sometimes, especially less important ones.
I must admit I'm lazy, and go for (2).
The Quiz:
1) You can get barbarians, gold (25 normally, 50 if you're expansionist), maps of the surrounding region, a settler, a conscript warrior, a conscript army, or nothing at all! I'm not sure if you can get a free city.
The chances of getting an army is very low. On the harder difficulties, the chance of getting a settler is also low. Additionally, if you have a settler active, or have more than the average number of cities for all civilizations, you can't get a settler. This does mean that on Deity it can actually be slightly more likely for you to get a settler, since you'll certainly be behind in cities.
2) You can't get barbarians if,
- You're expansionist
- You don't have *any* military units
- You open the village by founding a city next to it
3) If you're expansionist (which we're not), you obviously just go into all the huts all the time. The higher the level gets, the more of an advantage it is to be able to enter huts with impunity. On easier levels, no-one cares, because the barbarians are easy to deal with anyhow. Not anymore!
Otherwise, entering a hut when you are confident your scout, on the terrain the hut stands on, could take out the barbarians is a reasonable starting point.
This means that unless the hut happens to be on mountains, you probably *don't* want to open it with a regular warrior.
However, if the region has already been explored (i.e. it would take the scout a substantial amount of time to reach new territory to explore), then you may consider risking the hut anyway. If you do this however, be sure that nearby cities will be able to handle any barbarians that arise.
Also, popping villages by founding a city next to them is a *really* good idea! For any given village, there's a reasonable chance that you'd want to found a city on one of the tiles next to it anyhow. If this is so, then this is the best way to pop it.
I'm like anyone else, I love to pop villages too. But uhh...it's a pretty dangerous thing to do. Remember, Matt_g's village pop "only" resulted in us losing our scout. That was bad enough, setting our exploration back a substantial amount. Imagine if Athens had been pillaged by the barbarian! On the other hand, the most we could realistically have expected to have gotten from the village would be hmm...another scout, which would have been pretty good, or maybe 25 gold, which would have been ok, or maps, which would have been fairly useless. A settler is unlikely.
On Deity, I believe there is only about a 30% chance of getting anything good at all out of a hut, while 70% of the time it's empty or has barbarians. Not good odds.
Renata: Perfect marks on the quiz. Let us know when you get back, I'll look at emailing you instructions on how to use a painting program.
EDIT: Matt_g: A body of water is a fresh water lake if it consists only of coastal tiles. If it includes sea tiles, then it's an inland sea; not fresh water.
If you build a city that is next to the lake, i.e. so that if a land unit stands in the city, it can't move in one of the 8 directions because it'd run into the lake, then you get access to fresh water.
i.e. if you built a city on any of the 8 tiles surrounding the lake in our game, you'd get access to fresh water.
Renata: That city site *will* have one of the cattle in range. The cattle is two spaces away from it, however it's just outside the cultural reach of Athens. Athens has cultural control of the tile north-west of it. By building where Matt suggested, we'll have cultural control of the tile south-west of the cattle. It's a game rule that if you have cultural control of opposite sides of a tile, then you get control of that tile too.
We'll need a temple to get the other cattle that'd also be in range though.
-Sirp.
Shaesha, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking and if Renata already covered it.
On Monarch, the first two citizens in a city will be content. Every citizen thereafter will be unhappy, unless you 'give them a reason' to be otherwise.
Content citizens indeed don't count. A happy citizen will counteract an unhappy citizen. So if you have 1 happy citizen, 1 content, and 1 unhappy, the city will be fine. If you have 8 content citizens, and 1 unhappy citizen, the city will riot, since it has more unhappy citizens (1) than happy (0).
Generally, you should start getting familiar with when a city will riot. I.e. when it grows, or when you remove soldiers from it in despotism. I know that some people check the city every turn at this stage in the game. Soon though, it should progress to being 'second nature' to you. "I get two content citizens for free, and there is a soldier in there, so when the city grows to size three, I'll be fine. I don't have to check on it until it's size four" you say to yourself. You don't do this later in the game though; it becomes too complex to work out. Then uhh.....you either (1) check every city every turn. (2) accept that some cities will riot sometimes, especially less important ones.
I must admit I'm lazy, and go for (2).
The Quiz:
1) You can get barbarians, gold (25 normally, 50 if you're expansionist), maps of the surrounding region, a settler, a conscript warrior, a conscript army, or nothing at all! I'm not sure if you can get a free city.
The chances of getting an army is very low. On the harder difficulties, the chance of getting a settler is also low. Additionally, if you have a settler active, or have more than the average number of cities for all civilizations, you can't get a settler. This does mean that on Deity it can actually be slightly more likely for you to get a settler, since you'll certainly be behind in cities.
2) You can't get barbarians if,
- You're expansionist
- You don't have *any* military units
- You open the village by founding a city next to it
3) If you're expansionist (which we're not), you obviously just go into all the huts all the time. The higher the level gets, the more of an advantage it is to be able to enter huts with impunity. On easier levels, no-one cares, because the barbarians are easy to deal with anyhow. Not anymore!
Otherwise, entering a hut when you are confident your scout, on the terrain the hut stands on, could take out the barbarians is a reasonable starting point.
This means that unless the hut happens to be on mountains, you probably *don't* want to open it with a regular warrior.
However, if the region has already been explored (i.e. it would take the scout a substantial amount of time to reach new territory to explore), then you may consider risking the hut anyway. If you do this however, be sure that nearby cities will be able to handle any barbarians that arise.
Also, popping villages by founding a city next to them is a *really* good idea! For any given village, there's a reasonable chance that you'd want to found a city on one of the tiles next to it anyhow. If this is so, then this is the best way to pop it.
I'm like anyone else, I love to pop villages too. But uhh...it's a pretty dangerous thing to do. Remember, Matt_g's village pop "only" resulted in us losing our scout. That was bad enough, setting our exploration back a substantial amount. Imagine if Athens had been pillaged by the barbarian! On the other hand, the most we could realistically have expected to have gotten from the village would be hmm...another scout, which would have been pretty good, or maybe 25 gold, which would have been ok, or maps, which would have been fairly useless. A settler is unlikely.
On Deity, I believe there is only about a 30% chance of getting anything good at all out of a hut, while 70% of the time it's empty or has barbarians. Not good odds.
Renata: Perfect marks on the quiz. Let us know when you get back, I'll look at emailing you instructions on how to use a painting program.
EDIT: Matt_g: A body of water is a fresh water lake if it consists only of coastal tiles. If it includes sea tiles, then it's an inland sea; not fresh water.
If you build a city that is next to the lake, i.e. so that if a land unit stands in the city, it can't move in one of the 8 directions because it'd run into the lake, then you get access to fresh water.
i.e. if you built a city on any of the 8 tiles surrounding the lake in our game, you'd get access to fresh water.
Renata: That city site *will* have one of the cattle in range. The cattle is two spaces away from it, however it's just outside the cultural reach of Athens. Athens has cultural control of the tile north-west of it. By building where Matt suggested, we'll have cultural control of the tile south-west of the cattle. It's a game rule that if you have cultural control of opposite sides of a tile, then you get control of that tile too.
We'll need a temple to get the other cattle that'd also be in range though.
-Sirp.
Stormrider
Civ Journeyman
State of the Empire (aka Pre-turn): I max out science and IW drops from 33 to 31 turns. Should drop further with more roads... Slider is at 0.8.2 we are making no cash, but once we get better than 0 gpt, IW goes back to 33.
Will obviously review the slider frequently to maximize benefits.
My priorities: Settlers and another scout.
2950 BC: Athens at 5. Fortify Warrior in Athens. Leave new citizen on forest - Granery in 1. Move slider to 0.7.3 so we do not riot next turn. IW in 32, GPT -1. Move Scout-Warrior south.
IBT: Barb out of the fog N by NE 3 tiles from Athens.
2900 BC: Athens set to settler (in 4 turns). Leave workers where they are. Slider to 5.2.3 IW still in 31, but GPT +2. Warrior to SW
IBT: Barb 2 tiles N by NE from Athens.
2850 BC: MM Athens - Growth in 4 settler in 4. Warrior West onto hill to go onto mountain next turn to get a better view of what lies in the darkness...
IBT: Barb 2 tiles N of from Athens.
2800 BC: Looks like Mr. Barb is going after our worker. Worker is done mining in 1 - enough time to save him from Mr. Barb, but my MP Warrior may have to leave Athens to avoid plundering of the soon to be mined BG. I will MM Athens next turn if need be, but until the Barb commits, I won't either.
That being said, Warrior-scout moves onto Mountain and reveals several squares of forest.
IBT: Barb moves S. Is now immediately north of Athens and West of worker.
2750 BC: Would have been nice to start the road this turn, but move worker South for safety. Move scout W. MM Athens to +3 GPT.
IBT: Barb SW
2710 BC: Warrior from Athens takes out Barb, no damage. Barb was on grassland - small risk of our warrior dying. Have to increase lux to prevent rioting 4.2.4. Worker back to recently mined BG. Warrior-Scout west to Mountain - exposes river valley.
2670 BC: Settler heads for 5 SE of Athens for new city. Athens set to warrior. Warrior back to Athens. Worker road. Scout warrior to NW. Rome still at only 2 cities
2630 BC: Scout W. Settler SE. Slider 6.2.2 GPT+23 / IW in 25
2590 BC: Athens warrior, now set to Settler. New warrior (W2) goes off exploring. Settler SE. Old Scout (W1) moves W sees some more very tasty terrain (river/plains/grassland). Athens grows next trun. Slider 9.1.0.
Nothing I can do for the last several turns will make IW come any faster, so I try to make some $. GPT +3
2550 BC:
I could have sworn I had 4 content peeps in Athens, but they riot. Set slider to 8.1.1 My bad. Road done. Worker off to make road to our next city - move to grassland south of Athens. W1 finds game along river. W2 still in area already explored. Settler in position for city next turn.
2510 BC: Athens grows. Settler and growth in 3. Slider 5.2.3 GPT +2 / IW 22 - can only make IW faster by losing GPT.
Glorious Sparta founded 2510. Set to warrior. W2 heads NW. W1 still exploring river valley. Worker road.
IBT: W2 meets Barb coming south.
2470 BC: Keep exploring warriors. Did not attack Barb as he was on hill.
IBT: Barb moving S towards Athens - 3 tiles away. The Barbs I knew and loved in CIV3 would have jumped me, unless there was a worker to kill in range. PTW barbs are not as predictable
2430 BC: W2 climbs mountain and finds massive jungle with goody hut in the middle W1 finds goody hut. I am already twitching, dreaming of that cookie jar...
Have been periodically checking on Rome. Nothing new, but
the advisor tells me the Roman Army fears our warrior. So we have that going for us....
IBT: Barb moves closer to Athens
2390 BC: Settler produced. Athens set to Hoplite in 3. W2 finds Barb camp and sees spice to the north. Worker finishes road and moves to BG South by SE of Athens. W1 found 25 in the cookie jar, err, I mean goody hut. Sees a cow.
Settler heads two tiles south. I am heading him towards the plains tile that is on the river 3 tiles South and 1 tile SW of Athens.
Reasoning: Small overlap with Sparta, none with Athens. On a river = no acqueduct. Also in a direction to prevent future Northern and far western Roman expansion (very small factor in my decision). I might have moved him to the West of Athens, but the barbarian scared me off.
Slider 8.1.1 GPT +6. Definitely no rioting next turn. IW still will not research faster.
IBT: Stupid Barb skirts away from Athens onto a mountain in the general direction of Settler.
2350 BC: I switch Athens to warrior (next turn). Move warrior from Athens two south to chase the Settler and provide some protection. Slider 7.1.2 to keep athens at 2 happy and two unhappy (learned my lesson...) GPT +5.
Only deficit spending (and with no MP, a rioting Athens), will IW move from 18 to 17 turns.
W2 disperses Barb camp (+25 GP). W1 moves onto cow and determines that large body of water to the north is fresh water (2 food). Settler to South. Worker road on BG.
Summary: I think I only made one obvious weedy move. Keep an eye on Athens as it is about to grow. Keep an eye on the Barb. Sparta to make warrior next turn. Settler not in final position. Change if you think it is necessary. Rome still only has 1 additional city. They have WC, we have Pottery. Although Sirp recommended next player (me) to max science, only running a deficit would have improved research by one turn. Instead,
I added some coins meager treasury. Still a goody hut in the middle of the jungle if my successor is feeling lucky.
I learned that PTW barbarians are not as predictable. I reconfirmed that only one scout sucks. Not sure what to make of a 2 city Roman Empire 35 turns into the game.
I am not used to playing for an audience, so instead of flying by the seat of my pants, I actually thought out some moves and even thought out in terms of 1 or 2 turns ahead of where I was. Big change in my playing style. Since it is early in the game, I hope any ill-advised decisions of mine will not hurt in the long run.
p.s. We need more workers. I kept on checking to see if Rome had any for sale, but alas, they did not. Maybe for Athens' next unit...
Will obviously review the slider frequently to maximize benefits.
My priorities: Settlers and another scout.
2950 BC: Athens at 5. Fortify Warrior in Athens. Leave new citizen on forest - Granery in 1. Move slider to 0.7.3 so we do not riot next turn. IW in 32, GPT -1. Move Scout-Warrior south.
IBT: Barb out of the fog N by NE 3 tiles from Athens.
2900 BC: Athens set to settler (in 4 turns). Leave workers where they are. Slider to 5.2.3 IW still in 31, but GPT +2. Warrior to SW
IBT: Barb 2 tiles N by NE from Athens.
2850 BC: MM Athens - Growth in 4 settler in 4. Warrior West onto hill to go onto mountain next turn to get a better view of what lies in the darkness...
IBT: Barb 2 tiles N of from Athens.
2800 BC: Looks like Mr. Barb is going after our worker. Worker is done mining in 1 - enough time to save him from Mr. Barb, but my MP Warrior may have to leave Athens to avoid plundering of the soon to be mined BG. I will MM Athens next turn if need be, but until the Barb commits, I won't either.
That being said, Warrior-scout moves onto Mountain and reveals several squares of forest.
IBT: Barb moves S. Is now immediately north of Athens and West of worker.
2750 BC: Would have been nice to start the road this turn, but move worker South for safety. Move scout W. MM Athens to +3 GPT.
IBT: Barb SW
2710 BC: Warrior from Athens takes out Barb, no damage. Barb was on grassland - small risk of our warrior dying. Have to increase lux to prevent rioting 4.2.4. Worker back to recently mined BG. Warrior-Scout west to Mountain - exposes river valley.
2670 BC: Settler heads for 5 SE of Athens for new city. Athens set to warrior. Warrior back to Athens. Worker road. Scout warrior to NW. Rome still at only 2 cities
2630 BC: Scout W. Settler SE. Slider 6.2.2 GPT+23 / IW in 25
2590 BC: Athens warrior, now set to Settler. New warrior (W2) goes off exploring. Settler SE. Old Scout (W1) moves W sees some more very tasty terrain (river/plains/grassland). Athens grows next trun. Slider 9.1.0.
Nothing I can do for the last several turns will make IW come any faster, so I try to make some $. GPT +3
2550 BC:
I could have sworn I had 4 content peeps in Athens, but they riot. Set slider to 8.1.1 My bad. Road done. Worker off to make road to our next city - move to grassland south of Athens. W1 finds game along river. W2 still in area already explored. Settler in position for city next turn.2510 BC: Athens grows. Settler and growth in 3. Slider 5.2.3 GPT +2 / IW 22 - can only make IW faster by losing GPT.
Glorious Sparta founded 2510. Set to warrior. W2 heads NW. W1 still exploring river valley. Worker road.
IBT: W2 meets Barb coming south.
2470 BC: Keep exploring warriors. Did not attack Barb as he was on hill.
IBT: Barb moving S towards Athens - 3 tiles away. The Barbs I knew and loved in CIV3 would have jumped me, unless there was a worker to kill in range. PTW barbs are not as predictable
2430 BC: W2 climbs mountain and finds massive jungle with goody hut in the middle W1 finds goody hut. I am already twitching, dreaming of that cookie jar...
Have been periodically checking on Rome. Nothing new, but
the advisor tells me the Roman Army fears our warrior. So we have that going for us....
IBT: Barb moves closer to Athens
2390 BC: Settler produced. Athens set to Hoplite in 3. W2 finds Barb camp and sees spice to the north. Worker finishes road and moves to BG South by SE of Athens. W1 found 25 in the cookie jar, err, I mean goody hut. Sees a cow.
Settler heads two tiles south. I am heading him towards the plains tile that is on the river 3 tiles South and 1 tile SW of Athens.
Reasoning: Small overlap with Sparta, none with Athens. On a river = no acqueduct. Also in a direction to prevent future Northern and far western Roman expansion (very small factor in my decision). I might have moved him to the West of Athens, but the barbarian scared me off.
Slider 8.1.1 GPT +6. Definitely no rioting next turn. IW still will not research faster.
IBT: Stupid Barb skirts away from Athens onto a mountain in the general direction of Settler.
2350 BC: I switch Athens to warrior (next turn). Move warrior from Athens two south to chase the Settler and provide some protection. Slider 7.1.2 to keep athens at 2 happy and two unhappy (learned my lesson...) GPT +5.
Only deficit spending (and with no MP, a rioting Athens), will IW move from 18 to 17 turns.
W2 disperses Barb camp (+25 GP). W1 moves onto cow and determines that large body of water to the north is fresh water (2 food). Settler to South. Worker road on BG.
Summary: I think I only made one obvious weedy move. Keep an eye on Athens as it is about to grow. Keep an eye on the Barb. Sparta to make warrior next turn. Settler not in final position. Change if you think it is necessary. Rome still only has 1 additional city. They have WC, we have Pottery. Although Sirp recommended next player (me) to max science, only running a deficit would have improved research by one turn. Instead,
I added some coins meager treasury. Still a goody hut in the middle of the jungle if my successor is feeling lucky.
I learned that PTW barbarians are not as predictable. I reconfirmed that only one scout sucks. Not sure what to make of a 2 city Roman Empire 35 turns into the game.
I am not used to playing for an audience, so instead of flying by the seat of my pants, I actually thought out some moves and even thought out in terms of 1 or 2 turns ahead of where I was. Big change in my playing style. Since it is early in the game, I hope any ill-advised decisions of mine will not hurt in the long run.
p.s. We need more workers. I kept on checking to see if Rome had any for sale, but alas, they did not.
Maybe for Athens' next unit...Stormrider
Civ Journeyman
Trying to figure out how to post the screen shot. Will do so later, as my wife has declared that I have been playing "that stupid game' long enough. Love that woman...
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,112
I have gotten Free cities multiple times.
The requirements are you must be expansionist and the spot qualifies for a free city. I don't know what the qualification is, as I haven't tracked it that closely.
@ Sirp: Actually, I'm still here. Change of plans. So suggestions welcome at any time. Thanks. 
edit @ Stormrider: I took a peek at the save. Plenty of good open land down south, very nice. And our first four or five cities should all be on freshwater, which is better than nice. The rivers should help our research a lot, which by the way, really isn't that bad - we could have ceremonial burial right now in 8 at 80%, for instance, and even masonry is only 16 turns.
Rome must be working on something expensive if they still don't have a new tech and are still at only 10 gold. Could it be .. iron working?
Renata
edit @ Stormrider: I took a peek at the save. Plenty of good open land down south, very nice. And our first four or five cities should all be on freshwater, which is better than nice. The rivers should help our research a lot, which by the way, really isn't that bad - we could have ceremonial burial right now in 8 at 80%, for instance, and even masonry is only 16 turns.
Rome must be working on something expensive if they still don't have a new tech and are still at only 10 gold. Could it be .. iron working?
Renata
Good work maxing out on science. Yes it should drop further with roads. I don't know why you're concerned with gpt though, we don't care alot about that at this stage, we care about getting IW asap.
Ok, to be good at Civilization, one often needs to work smarter, not harder.
Do you know how researching technology works? We dedicate a certain amount of income to science. The amount we dedicate each turn goes into a box, much like the production or food box of a city. When the box fills up, we get the technology. The only difference with this box is that we can't see it in the game, and that there is a minimum of 4 turns for research, and a maximum of 40.
The only time you get inefficient waste of science effort is if on the last turn of research, you produce too much and it overruns the amount needed. For instance, if we need 8 beakers to get a technology, and we are producing 6 a turn, then we will get it in two turns, but at the current rate, we'll end up getting 12 beakers when we only need 8, and so waste 4. Suppose that we wait until the last turn, when we only need 2 beakers, to adjust the slider rate. If we can adjust it to an amount that will give exactly 2 beakers, then we will have no wastage at all. It is likely that we will still have a small amount of waste however, and so we might try to adjust it 2 or 3 turns out from discovering a technology, to try to eliminate that waste.
Even just adjusting it on the turn before the invention is discovered will eliminate 80% of science wastage. Don't even bother adjusting it for waste elimination more than 5 turns out
The turns reported to research a technology are if we keep researching at the current rate. Observe three simple facts:
- we know our commerce is going to rise in the near future, although we're not sure by exactly how much
- we want iron working ASAP. We don't care that much about money at this stage
- iron working is a long way off.
Obviously the amount of time displayed to get the technology on the slider is very rough at this stage. As such, what we want to do is put as much commerce as possible into iron working, even if it doesn't affect the quoted turn rate.
Excellent! We have lots of cash, start spending at a deficit. You didn't? Hmm...why not? Our cash isn't doing much sitting around in our coffers. Use it to get IW faster. Even if the quoted turn rate doesn't change, plug as much as possible into science!
By the end of your turn, IW was due in 18 turns. By the end of my shadow, it was due in 10. Sure, I had lots less cash on hand than you did, but uhh....that cash isn't going to be terribly useful. I guess we might be able to use it to buy WC off the Romans.
I also went to less effort with the slider than you did. I just set-and-forget it to max science, only occasionally keeping an eye on my treasury to make sure I didn't run out of cash.
Well I played more conservatively: When the barb appeared out of the fog, I set Athens to build a warrior. You took a smallish risk, in exchange for slightly faster expansion. Doing things my way allowed me to move Athen's guard onto the hill though, denying the barb from interfering with our worker.
I would have preferred a hoplite in Athens, but there wasn't time to build one before the barb arrived.
Yeah, I haven't had as much experience with PTW barbs as I'd like yet, but I do know they are smarter and much more annoying. I'm thinking of playing a Deity, Raging Hordes game with lots of open land, just to see exactly how bad they are
Ok, why would you have 4 contents? You just said that you set luxuries to 0, you have 2 content by default and you just have one warrior for MP. That'll make 3 content citizens and 1 unhappy. At this stage, if you have luxuries at 0%, you shouldn't have to look at a city to know if it's going to go into disorder, you should just know.
---
Your internal development was great. Your worker moves followed the exact same pattern as in my shadow, except that in my shadow I didn't have to retreat from the barbarian. Your settler rate was great. You built one city, and have set it up for the next player to build one almost immediately.
Notice that we have the same number of cities as Rome: 2. We will almost certainly beat Rome to a third. That's *with* an early granary!
I notice that you sent settlers out undefended. With confirmed barbarians around, this is a somewhat unadvisable move. Sure, it lets you expand faster. To be honest, I'd have to say it's a great move if you're planning to reload or restart if things turn sour, it's a bad move if you intend to win *this* game without cheating. (I am not implying that this is the way you do or have ever played. I know that many players do play this way. I am ashamed to admit that I once used to play this way). Losing a settler this early is just too damaging to not escort them. You have to protect your most valuable assets.
Well, bad decisions will likely be game-lasting at this stage, however you did just fine. Your play was definitely good enough to win on this level.
The first two turns have been great, and we've had some detailed analysis. However, I said when I started this game that anyone who had beaten Warlord or above could play. That means we're going to get players who are barely Warlord capable, through to players who can sometimes beat Monarch. This is fine. I want to help each player at the level they're at. I'm also happy for you guys to try to help and advise each other.
So, don't be intimidated if these first two rounds have been over your head. Just do the best you can, and you'll be sure to get lots of valuable advice. Everyone was a crappy player once
Yes we do need more workers. Building one in Athens wouldn't be a bad move, although I'm thinking that I might get one out of Sparta: It's a high food city too!
Workers are not nearly as cheap to buy from the AI anymore. Buying workers used to be a great move. Umm...so good that it was borderline exploitive: it could cripple that AI. Checking with the AI every turn to see if they have workers is boring, repetitive, and involves no skill whatsoever. If I see a worker for sale, I'll consider buying it, but I don't check every turn.
Finally, umm....your biggest :weed: might have been the state you left the game in. A barbarian two tiles away from Athens which is undefended, although about to produce a regular warrior. Hmmm....
And you know what? That barbarian is probably going to move onto the cattle. That will deny our workers in Athens the use of the cattle for that turn, and the govenor will move them somewhere else. This will result in Athens getting less commerce for the turn, which might result in it rioting....which would mean the warrior won't get complete, which means the barb will pillage it! I tried this out, and confirmed that that's exactly what'd happen, so we have to raise our luxury rates.
SUMMARY:
Good - development, building a scout, exploring, building settlers; placement of Sparta, intended placement of next city.
Average - sending out settlers undefended
Poor - Not going max science, letting Athens riot, leaving Athens threatened by barbarians.
-Sirp.
Originally posted by Renata
Rome must be working on something expensive if they still don't have a new tech and are still at only 10 gold. Could it be .. iron working?
Renata
I would bet the farm on that.
Sirp was right. We could have had writing and probably got WC and IW for it.
I got one in a solo game I'm playing now as the Mongols. Luckily it was in a good spot.
FYI, according to this thread You don't have to expansionist. It can happen for any Civ. Being Expansionist does increase the odds though. Personally, I would much rather have a settler. At least then I control where the city is placed.
grrrrr I was in the middle of a long post and then it decided to refresh the page, losing everything I typed for some reason 
It's dotmap time! Here is the current State of the Nation:
Unfortunately we don't have as much intelligence as we'd like, largely due to the early scout loss. Nevertheless, we're going to plan our empire.
I would like it if each player could submit a dotmap. Just download the above image, and place a colored dot on each tile that you think a city should go on, with a commentary on which order we should found our cities along with why that is a good city site.
It's not mandatory, but it will hopefully improve your city placement skills, which are an important part of the game.
Renata, I can't give you help with Paintshop, because I'm not familiar with it, but I can give instructions using Microsoft Paint, which is available on all Windows machines, and which is similiar to Paintshop anyhow. I'll give instructions here, since they might be of benefit to others too.
NOTE: I use Windows XP. IIRC some versions of Windows shipped with a version of Paint that doesn't support Jpegs; if your version of Paint doesn't support Jpegs you'll have to use another program like Paint.
To make a dotmap, download the above image (right-click and put save). Then open up Paint from Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. Open the image. There is a pallete of tools on the left side of the Paint window, and a pallete of colors at the bottom. Select the brush tool, and select a color from the bottom. You can draw a little dot on the tile you think a city should go on. You can use Control-Z to undo if you make a mistake.
When you're done, save the image, giving it the name SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg - so Renata would use SP4-dotmap-Renata.jpeg for instance.
Then come to the forum, put "Upload File" at the very bottom right of the page, and select your file.
Then post a message, describing your dotmap, and press the 'IMG' button above the message box. It will ask you for the image location, enter "http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg"
And you're done!
If anyone really has trouble with this, they're welcome to post a textual description of where they think cities should go instead. (insert Chinese cliche about pictures and words)
I'm up now, and then hmm...Shaesha and Wetterlind still don't have PTW as far as I know. Renata seems a little more ready to play than she previous indicated.
So, Renata, if you're ok to play after me, just post "I got it" after I do my turn, and you can play. Otherwise, whoever out of Shaesha and Wetterlind gets PTW first and can play can take the turn.
Matt_g
Stormrider <--- Just played
Sirp <--- UP NOW
Renata - On deck, if she can make it
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
-Sirp.
It's dotmap time! Here is the current State of the Nation:
Unfortunately we don't have as much intelligence as we'd like, largely due to the early scout loss. Nevertheless, we're going to plan our empire.
I would like it if each player could submit a dotmap. Just download the above image, and place a colored dot on each tile that you think a city should go on, with a commentary on which order we should found our cities along with why that is a good city site.
It's not mandatory, but it will hopefully improve your city placement skills, which are an important part of the game.
Renata, I can't give you help with Paintshop, because I'm not familiar with it, but I can give instructions using Microsoft Paint, which is available on all Windows machines, and which is similiar to Paintshop anyhow. I'll give instructions here, since they might be of benefit to others too.
NOTE: I use Windows XP. IIRC some versions of Windows shipped with a version of Paint that doesn't support Jpegs; if your version of Paint doesn't support Jpegs you'll have to use another program like Paint.
To make a dotmap, download the above image (right-click and put save). Then open up Paint from Start -> Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. Open the image. There is a pallete of tools on the left side of the Paint window, and a pallete of colors at the bottom. Select the brush tool, and select a color from the bottom. You can draw a little dot on the tile you think a city should go on. You can use Control-Z to undo if you make a mistake.
When you're done, save the image, giving it the name SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg - so Renata would use SP4-dotmap-Renata.jpeg for instance.
Then come to the forum, put "Upload File" at the very bottom right of the page, and select your file.
Then post a message, describing your dotmap, and press the 'IMG' button above the message box. It will ask you for the image location, enter "http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/SP4-dotmap-<your-name>.jpeg"
And you're done!
If anyone really has trouble with this, they're welcome to post a textual description of where they think cities should go instead. (insert Chinese cliche about pictures and words)
I'm up now, and then hmm...Shaesha and Wetterlind still don't have PTW as far as I know. Renata seems a little more ready to play than she previous indicated.
So, Renata, if you're ok to play after me, just post "I got it" after I do my turn, and you can play. Otherwise, whoever out of Shaesha and Wetterlind gets PTW first and can play can take the turn.
Matt_g
Stormrider <--- Just played
Sirp <--- UP NOW
Renata - On deck, if she can make it
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
-Sirp.
I don't think I've ever gotten a city from a hut. Does it still display the "We have found an advanced tribe" message like in Civ1?
I think it's a good idea though; getting a settler from a hut is a bit too good. A city is more balanced, so they could make it happen more often.
Yes, it is likely that Rome is discovering Iron Working. If there are other civilizations on the continent, we want to discover them before Rome, so we get the trading opportunities.
If we get IW and Rome still doesn't have it, we can get a good idea of whether they're researching it by offering it to them and seeing how much they value it. If they won't even give us WC for it, we know they've almost discovered it themselves.
-Sirp.
I think it's a good idea though; getting a settler from a hut is a bit too good. A city is more balanced, so they could make it happen more often.
Yes, it is likely that Rome is discovering Iron Working. If there are other civilizations on the continent, we want to discover them before Rome, so we get the trading opportunities.
If we get IW and Rome still doesn't have it, we can get a good idea of whether they're researching it by offering it to them and seeing how much they value it. If they won't even give us WC for it, we know they've almost discovered it themselves.
-Sirp.
Well... Here goes nothing!
First I would start with the red dot. I would start here to keep the Romans from
expanding, because there is access to fresh water, and because of the 2 different
types of bonus food tiles.
Second, I would go to the yellow dot. There is a bonus food tile nearby, and
hopefully more goodies to the southwest.
Next, the black dot. Actually I am having trouble between the black and the blue.
From what I know about the two, the blue will have access to fresh water. Now,
where my question lies... is it possible that after clearing some of the jungle
that the river will continue in through there? If so, I'd definately go to the
black dot. Lots of opportunity there
First I would start with the red dot. I would start here to keep the Romans from
expanding, because there is access to fresh water, and because of the 2 different
types of bonus food tiles.
Second, I would go to the yellow dot. There is a bonus food tile nearby, and
hopefully more goodies to the southwest.
Next, the black dot. Actually I am having trouble between the black and the blue.
From what I know about the two, the blue will have access to fresh water. Now,
where my question lies... is it possible that after clearing some of the jungle
that the river will continue in through there? If so, I'd definately go to the
black dot. Lots of opportunity there
The reason I'd like to use paintshop is for the ability to crop images. I actually can do it, but I'm never quite sure what size it will turn out after pasting.
At any rate, I can get by.
I can play Monday night, if that's ok. Dotmap sometime tomorrow.
Renata
At any rate, I can get by.
I can play Monday night, if that's ok. Dotmap sometime tomorrow.
Renata
2350BC (IT): Luxuries increased so that Athens will not go into civil disorder even if it is denied its cattle. Science taken to max.
2310BC (1): The barbarian moves onto the cattle. Athens produces its warrior. But now what do I do? If I defend the city, the barbarian may pillage the cattle. If I attack, we may lose and he may pillage Athens! If he pillages Athens we will lose a whole heap of gold, or a citizen. Pillaging the cattle would be almost as bad.
I choose to attack him. We win. A bullet dodged. Athens is set to build a hoplite. (Afterwards I reloaded the game, just to see if he'd attack, pillage, or go after the worker if I didn't attack. He pillaged. My observation is that this does make hoplites and other defensive units substantially weaker against barbarians).
I move our scout around that body of water, trying to confirm it is indeed fresh water (and wondering why he can't just taste it to see!)
Sparta finished its warrior, and is set to build a worker.
2270BC (2): We build Thermopylae, which is set to build a warrior.
Rome has a worker to trade. They want Pottery and 50 gold for it though. This is now a pretty fair trade; in the past they'd value them at about 40 gold. If I thought that Julius would build a granary in Rome if we give him pottery, I wouldn't give it to him. Since I don't think he's going to do that, I do the trade.
I confirm that the body of water is indeed fresh.
2230BC (3): Our scouting warrior spots blue borders in the north!
Rome has just managed to come up with The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...did they research one of them? Meet someone and trade? Find em in huts? Hopefully they researched at least one of them, meaning we'll definitely get IW before them, and be able to trade it most likely for all three.
Our worker moves on to build a road on the cattle, rather than mine the enriched grassland near Athens. A close choice there.
2190BC (4) Athens builds a hoplite and is set to build a settler.
2150BC (5) Our warrior in the south-west sights green borders! The Romans have Iron Working
We are now four technologies behind Rome. Don't worry, we'll catch up. To play on the harder levels, you have to learn to play from behind in technology.
IBT the Babylonians contact us (we're at their borders, so they can see us, although we can't see any of their units yet). They want to trade Pottery for Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...we'd rather trade Alphabet to them in exchange for all their technology (Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code, plus all their cash, 10). This is what is meant by Alphabet being so valuable
It's also of no *immediate* value to them, while pottery, the far less expensive technology, is!
2110BC (6) Athens grows to 6, luxury slider adjusted. Sparta builds a worker. We make contact with the Aztecs in the south-west. They are ahead of us by the Wheel. The Romans and Aztecs each have 2 cities, the Babylonians 3. We also have 3. The Babylonians have Mysticism, but are not interested in trading it.
I suspect that the Aztecs and Romans have contact, due to their similiar techs, and since the Aztecs having Jags would be likely to have made contact with them. However I doubt Babylon has contact with either. So, we do have brokering opportunities.
Athens will be a settler/worker farm, always maximizing food, trying to churn out as many settlers as possible. Sparta is high-food so it can also build some workers, but will concentrate more on improvements/military. Thermopylae is not high food, so we will make it produce military, as well as trying to build a granary in it at some point, so it can grow as quickly as possible.
2070BC (7) Thermopylae builds a warrior. It is sent exploring; set to build a barracks.
2030BC (8) Babylon now has Masonry. The only way they'd trade it with us is for gpt. IW is 5 turns off, hopefully when we get it we'll be able to start to make some good trades. Hopefully.
1990BC (9) Settler/hoplite pair almost at site for fourth city.
1950BC (10) Athens-Sparta connecting road complete. Irrigation near Sparta complete.
I wasn't terribly detailed in my report. If anyone doesn't understand why I did something, please ask.
The Game
(Can someone please help me out here? Is it ok to attach files to posts? I knew at one time it wasn't, but I heard rumors that it's ok again. Is it ok or do you have to upload it to the server?)
Renata, I'll move you up in the roster, which means you're up now. Monday night will be fine.
Matt_g
Stormrider
Sirp <--- Just played
Renata <--- UP NOW
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind, please update us on your PTW status and availability.
If we manage to get IW before the Aztecs and Babylonians do, Renata should have some great brokering opportunities. The game is certainly going to be interesting. Us between three civilizations, all of whom are known to be rather aggressive at times.
I went 10 turns and it's going to be 10 from here on out, unless it gets real slow in the IA, in which case we might drop to 5.
If people want, they can use the updated map info to do their dotmaps.
-Sirp.
2310BC (1): The barbarian moves onto the cattle. Athens produces its warrior. But now what do I do? If I defend the city, the barbarian may pillage the cattle. If I attack, we may lose and he may pillage Athens! If he pillages Athens we will lose a whole heap of gold, or a citizen. Pillaging the cattle would be almost as bad.
I choose to attack him. We win. A bullet dodged. Athens is set to build a hoplite. (Afterwards I reloaded the game, just to see if he'd attack, pillage, or go after the worker if I didn't attack. He pillaged. My observation is that this does make hoplites and other defensive units substantially weaker against barbarians).
I move our scout around that body of water, trying to confirm it is indeed fresh water (and wondering why he can't just taste it to see!)
Sparta finished its warrior, and is set to build a worker.
2270BC (2): We build Thermopylae, which is set to build a warrior.
Rome has a worker to trade. They want Pottery and 50 gold for it though. This is now a pretty fair trade; in the past they'd value them at about 40 gold. If I thought that Julius would build a granary in Rome if we give him pottery, I wouldn't give it to him. Since I don't think he's going to do that, I do the trade.
I confirm that the body of water is indeed fresh.
2230BC (3): Our scouting warrior spots blue borders in the north!
Rome has just managed to come up with The Wheel and Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...did they research one of them? Meet someone and trade? Find em in huts? Hopefully they researched at least one of them, meaning we'll definitely get IW before them, and be able to trade it most likely for all three.
Our worker moves on to build a road on the cattle, rather than mine the enriched grassland near Athens. A close choice there.
2190BC (4) Athens builds a hoplite and is set to build a settler.
2150BC (5) Our warrior in the south-west sights green borders! The Romans have Iron Working
We are now four technologies behind Rome. Don't worry, we'll catch up. To play on the harder levels, you have to learn to play from behind in technology.
IBT the Babylonians contact us (we're at their borders, so they can see us, although we can't see any of their units yet). They want to trade Pottery for Ceremonial Burial. Hmm...we'd rather trade Alphabet to them in exchange for all their technology (Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code, plus all their cash, 10). This is what is meant by Alphabet being so valuable
It's also of no *immediate* value to them, while pottery, the far less expensive technology, is!
2110BC (6) Athens grows to 6, luxury slider adjusted. Sparta builds a worker. We make contact with the Aztecs in the south-west. They are ahead of us by the Wheel. The Romans and Aztecs each have 2 cities, the Babylonians 3. We also have 3. The Babylonians have Mysticism, but are not interested in trading it.
I suspect that the Aztecs and Romans have contact, due to their similiar techs, and since the Aztecs having Jags would be likely to have made contact with them. However I doubt Babylon has contact with either. So, we do have brokering opportunities.
Athens will be a settler/worker farm, always maximizing food, trying to churn out as many settlers as possible. Sparta is high-food so it can also build some workers, but will concentrate more on improvements/military. Thermopylae is not high food, so we will make it produce military, as well as trying to build a granary in it at some point, so it can grow as quickly as possible.
2070BC (7) Thermopylae builds a warrior. It is sent exploring; set to build a barracks.
2030BC (8) Babylon now has Masonry. The only way they'd trade it with us is for gpt. IW is 5 turns off, hopefully when we get it we'll be able to start to make some good trades. Hopefully.
1990BC (9) Settler/hoplite pair almost at site for fourth city.
1950BC (10) Athens-Sparta connecting road complete. Irrigation near Sparta complete.
I wasn't terribly detailed in my report. If anyone doesn't understand why I did something, please ask.
The Game
(Can someone please help me out here? Is it ok to attach files to posts? I knew at one time it wasn't, but I heard rumors that it's ok again. Is it ok or do you have to upload it to the server?)
Renata, I'll move you up in the roster, which means you're up now. Monday night will be fine.
Matt_g
Stormrider
Sirp <--- Just played
Renata <--- UP NOW
Shaehsa - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind - getting PTW soon!
Wetterlind, please update us on your PTW status and availability.
If we manage to get IW before the Aztecs and Babylonians do, Renata should have some great brokering opportunities. The game is certainly going to be interesting. Us between three civilizations, all of whom are known to be rather aggressive at times.
I went 10 turns and it's going to be 10 from here on out, unless it gets real slow in the IA, in which case we might drop to 5.
If people want, they can use the updated map info to do their dotmaps.
-Sirp.
Stormrider
Civ Journeyman
Sirp
Thanks for the education on science research. I did not realize that it added beakers up like food. The reason I left gpt was that even if I went to deficit on $, my turns to discovery only decreased by one. I figured I might as well get some money if only one turn would be saved. Live and learn.
Question: If I change tech mid-stream, do my beakers start over from scratch? I am under this impression, although I have nothing to back it up. This is the reason why I left IW.
As I said, I tend to play a little risky, which is why I left Athens in the state I did. In fact, I usually pump out as many settlers as possible with as little defense as possible. Risky, I know. I recently became a forum lurker and now understand at leastm the value of a granery - something I did not bother with in the past. Live and learn.
Stormrider
Thanks for the education on science research. I did not realize that it added beakers up like food. The reason I left gpt was that even if I went to deficit on $, my turns to discovery only decreased by one. I figured I might as well get some money if only one turn would be saved. Live and learn.
Question: If I change tech mid-stream, do my beakers start over from scratch? I am under this impression, although I have nothing to back it up. This is the reason why I left IW.
As I said, I tend to play a little risky, which is why I left Athens in the state I did. In fact, I usually pump out as many settlers as possible with as little defense as possible. Risky, I know. I recently became a forum lurker and now understand at leastm the value of a granery - something I did not bother with in the past. Live and learn.
Stormrider
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,112
Dot mapping is still one of my weaker skills.
However, I can give a hint to help.
I draw the borders that the cities will create.
This will often reveals problems when I do the maps.
Do you notice the weakness with the city radius on the map?
However, I can give a hint to help.
I draw the borders that the cities will create.
This will often reveals problems when I do the maps.
Do you notice the weakness with the city radius on the map?
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Just to address a sub-discussion going on in this thread, you get a free city if (and only if) you have no settlers out there or under construction, and your number of cities is less than the number of cities in the game divided by the number of civs in the game... in other words, you are behind.
The map:
I intend for that hoplite/settler pair to settle on the tile directly north of where they stand. There's lots of land to grab in all directions, before our rivals get to it. There's rich land near the Romans and Aztecs that we'd like, and there's a source of Spices near the Babylonians. Course we can just build fairly non-aggressively for a while to come.
-Sirp.
I intend for that hoplite/settler pair to settle on the tile directly north of where they stand. There's lots of land to grab in all directions, before our rivals get to it. There's rich land near the Romans and Aztecs that we'd like, and there's a source of Spices near the Babylonians. Course we can just build fairly non-aggressively for a while to come.
-Sirp.
LKendter: Thanks alot! Your picture illustrated the point far better than my explanation would have
Stormrider: Yes if you switch research midstream, all your research to date is wasted. You should very rarely switch research midstream.
Shaesha: you might like to try a second attempt at a dotmap. Hopefully LKendter's explanation will have helped alot.
-Sirp.
Stormrider: Yes if you switch research midstream, all your research to date is wasted. You should very rarely switch research midstream.
Shaesha: you might like to try a second attempt at a dotmap. Hopefully LKendter's explanation will have helped alot.
-Sirp.
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