Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs

Originally posted by Sirp
My intention was to have Athens at 6/4, with settlers not generally being produced until it was almost size 7 (never ever let it get to size 7 though), this way it only stays at size 4 for a moment, before going back up to size 5. So it's size 5 and 6 almost all the time. This way it's a powerful city able to get lots of commerce and lots of shields. This is why I didn't think it was so bad to save a turn and get our slave worker to mine the unenriched grassland: at size 5 or higher we'd have to work on both the enriched and unenriched grassland anyhow, and so we wouldn't be losing anything most of the time.

We want to build settlers at a sustainable rate. To be precise, we want to get Athens to almost size 7, and then build a settler once every 6 turns. -Sirp.

OK, I understand now. I didn't quite get this, though I should have. It makes perfect sense.


Originally posted by Sirp
EDIT: Other possibilities include him being extorted by one of the other civilizations, or him buying communications with the Babylonians from the Aztecs. (Maybe?) Maybe he established embassies with the other civilizations too; not just us? (Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?) Did you notice if the gold of the other civilizations changed this turn?
-Sirp.

I'll bet he bought an embassy with Monty. After seeing the prices for what I bought that would be about right. Caesar nor Monty know Hammi exists yet. We are Hammi's only contact, and it's killing him. There is a jag up that way though, and that situation should change real fast, so Stormrider may want to get what he can for communications ASAP. Like maybe in the next 2 turns.

As far as the quiz is concerned I am at work so I will just say 'ditto' to Renata's post and save myself the typing. I know she is right on all counts.
1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.

Hey Sirp, I've been meaning to ask, whereabouts in Australia are you? What time zone, GMT +10 or what??
Just curious. Myself, I'm in Mountain time which is GMT -7.
 

1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.


Metalurgy kills the great wall - it does expire.
 
Originally posted by Matt_G
and save myself the typing. I know she is right on all counts.
1 add-on though, the Great Wall doesn't really expire per say, but a city loses it effect when it hits size 7.

QUOTE]

No, no!

Walls have a defensive bonus of 50%. The Great Wall doubles this to 100%.

Cities have defence bonus of 50%, metropolises 100%, so the Great Wall is only redundant for size 13+ cities, which is a side issue anyway, as it will have expired before you get size 13+ settlements (at Mettalurgy)
 
Lee and Nad, Thanks for the correction. I didn't know about it expiring with Metallurgy.
 
Renata summed it up nicely.

This is my official 'got it'. Matt thanks for the several heads up you gave me - I will be sure to check those out.

I should be able to play tonight. If I can not play until tomorrow, I will give you a heads up.
 
I got my PTW to work successfully TWICE now! :) sooo add me back on the roster!

Thanks!
 
Originally posted by Nad


Walls have a defensive bonus of 50%. The Great Wall doubles this to 100%.

Cities have defence bonus of 50%, metropolises 100%, so the Great Wall is only redundant for size 13+ cities, which is a side issue anyway, as it will have expired before you get size 13+ settlements (at Mettalurgy)

And, apparently you need construction for it (I checked). Ahh, well actually that is a bit better, although it still doesn't really change my ranking. It confuses me, though - if towns with walls get total 100% defense bonus with Great Wall and cities (which have their walls, if they have any, rendered obsolete at size 7) only 50%, your defense actually gets *worse* when your city grows? That doesn't seem to make any sense. :(

But onward ---

originally posted by Arutha
I think Sirp forgot one question in his quizz.

3) What traits (commercial, militaristic, etc) are associated with each of those wonders? What are the implications?

Hah, you had to go and ask something I *didn't* know. :) I can't tell you how many times I've been caught with unexpected golden ages because of this. Definitely need to get this bit through my skull.

The bits I can guess or know:

Pyramids: industrious I do know - think there was a second but don't know it -- expansionist?
Oracle: religious?
Great Lighthouse: expansionist, commercial I think
Great Wall: militaristic?
Great Library: scientific?
Hanging Gardens: no idea.
Colossus: no idea

Wow that was pitiful. :)

Renata
 
Originally posted by Renata
The bits I can guess or know:

Pyramids: industrious I do know - think there was a second but don't know it -- expansionist?
Oracle: religious?
Great Lighthouse: expansionist, commercial I think
Great Wall: militaristic?
Great Library: scientific?
Hanging Gardens: no idea.
Colossus: no idea

Wow that was pitiful. :)

Renata

Pyramids is religious and industrious. Instant GA for Egypt.

Your right on the Great Lighthouse. Instant GA for England. Not sure if there is a new Civ in PTW that would get a GA from this.

Oracle is just religious I believe.

Great Wall: Militaristic and Industrious. Instant GA for China and perhaps 1 of the new Civs. Not sure on that.

Great Library: your right, just scientific.

HG: Scientific and Religious. Instant GA for Babylon.

Colossus: This the one that has nailed me before. The civilopedia says it's Expansionist and Industrious I believe. But if you go into the editor it's also marked as Commercial. So it has 3 traits, making it an instant GA for England, America, and the French. I probably missed 1 or 2 here with the new civs.

Edit: The more I think about it the more I'm not sure about the third trait on the Colossus. I don't think it's Industrious. Can someone verify what it is? This will drive me nuts until I get home and check. :lol:

Matt
 
Originally posted by Matt_G


Pyramids is religious and industrious. Instant GA for Egypt.

Your right on the Great Lighthouse. Instant GA for England. Not sure if there is a new Civ in PTW that would get a GA from this.

Oracle is just religious I believe.

Great Wall: Militaristic and Industrious. Instant GA for China and perhaps 1 of the new Civs. Not sure on that.

Great Library: your right, just scientific.

HG: Scientific and Religious. Instant GA for Babylon.

Colossus: This the one that has nailed me before. The civilopedia says it's Expansionist and Industrious I believe. But if you go into the editor it's also marked as Commercial. So it has 3 traits, making it an instant GA for England, America, and the French. I probably missed 1 or 2 here with the new civs.
Matt

OK. I checked this out when I got home and I was wrong on a couple of counts.

First the Hanging Gardens. I really screwed up here. :o
It's Industrious. That's it. So no instant GA for anyone.

The Colossus: It's Expansionist, Commercial and Religious. (not Industrious :o)
So the Colossus would be an instant GA for England, Iroquois, Indians, Arabs and the Spanish.

There aren't any new Civs in PTW that are Militaristic and Industrious so the GW is a instant GA for China only.

The aren't any new Civs that are Expansionist and Commercial either, so the Great Lighthouse is a instant GA for England alone.

Shaesha and perhaps others;
There is a data sheet in .pdf form you can download from here that makes a great reference to have when you play. Print it out and and keep it by the computer. It's very handy. You can download it here.

Note that it's for PTW, not the original Civ3, though there is one for that as well. The only error I have seen in it is the traits for the Colossus. Commercial is not listed.
HTH
Matt
 
Speaker: I'm dubious as to whether the AI needs an embassy with another AI to do RoP or MPP deals. If the frequency with which the AI establishes embassies with the player is anything to go by, the AI would rarely establish embassies, and thus rarely be able to implement RoP or MPP deals. It does seem that the AI does establish embassies a little more in PTW.

Matt_g: I'm in Sydney, Australia; I'm not sure what time zone that is to be honest :)

---

I intentionally didn't include a question on what traits are associated with each Wonder, as I don't think that knowing that is necessary to win on higher levels. It's the kind of thing you just check on the spot when considering building a Wonder. I would not be confident as to how well I'd do on such a test...

The Colossus adds one commerce to each tile in the city which is producing at least one commerce. In most cases this will increase a city's commerce output by 50-100%

I understand that the Great Wall increases the defense of cities with walls. I am unsure as to the factor it increases defense by, and I understan that cities size 7+ do not count as having walls. You are right when you say this seems counter-intuitive and silly, Renata. The Great Wall does indeed expire at Metallurgy.

My ranking of the ancient wonders for these game settings is as follows:

Pyramids
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
------
Colossus
Hanging Gardens
Oracle
Great Wall

The wonders above the line have the potential to substantially alter the course of the game. The wonders below the line offer nice bonuses, but not game-altering effects.

I think everyone is aware of the power of the Pyramids. Lots of early expansion, but this wonder also helps right until the end of the game, since captured cities will always have granaries and expand faster, and all those granaries are free, so no maintenance! The Pyramids is always a powerful wonder - unless you're playing an OCC or 5CC or some other city-reduced game, or on a tiny map.

The Great Library is more valuable the higher the difficulty level is. On regent level, cutting off research will slow the tech pace down, but on higher levels it does much less so. The GL is more powerful than the Pyramids on some Deity games.

The Great Lighthouse is *usually* a powerful wonder in this kind of game. Remember Renata, if you're playing a Regent or Warlord level game, and going for a quick-as-possible win, then the main use of the Lighthouse is so you can attack overseas earlier. On higher levels, it has far more uses.

Finding other continents with a 'few suicide galleys' is *not* easy. Manytimes, to find anything, the galley would have to avoid sinking for several turns. I'm not sure, but I think that the chances of sinking are higher on higher levels. I have certainly had such dismal success in Emperor and Deity games with suicide galleys, that I have abandoned using them almost completely.

With the Lighthouse, contact is almost assured: you can move across sea tiles, and you can safely move 2 spaces into ocean tiles, moving 2 spaces back if you don't sight anything. This allows you to make *much* earlier contact, and to be the contact broker.

If you are the *only* civilization which has contact across two or more continents, and you know that no-one else will get contact until the arrival of astronomy (and you can be assured of this, since the AI never uses suicide galleys), you can use this to your immense advantage.

You will get more science discount opportunities from researching technologies already known to civilizations on either continent. You will be able to do science brokering, and map brokering. You may even be able to establish trade routes, and be the only one who is able to trade between the continents.

This advantage can be maintained for half an era, until the advent of astronomy. After that you can get your final payout by brokering contact.

If you're already ahead on science, and the AI has little money to give you, then the Lighthouse won't be that useful, but then if this is the case, you're probably playing on an easy level. If the AI is ahead of you, and has more cash than you, it can be of huge advantage. In Epic 4, my first Deity win, the English built the Lighthouse, and I was happy enough to be the first to see their galley. From that brokering opportunity - that lasted just one turn - I managed to get around half an era's worth of technology, catapulting me from the ancient era well into the middle ages, and going from being last in the world in technology to being just behind the leaders.

Being able to control contact is a *very* powerful thing.

The Colossus is a good wonder, a little underrated by many I feel; it'll get you lots of extra commerce for a long time, if you build it in a good city - but it isn't the game-changer that the top three can be.

The Hanging Gardens are good, they last an era, and are in similiar league to the Colossus.

The Oracle runs out far too early to be useful, otherwise it'd be a nice wonder, especially for religious civilizations.

Finally, the Great Wall is something you don't want your neighbour to have, but you don't care about that much either. I will say though, that many players don't build walls enough; walls are cheap, and do give a nice defensive bonus. Good for border cities that aren't going to grow very fast.

----

Something else I think I forgot to mention before about Republic: we want to try our very hardest to be in Republic when our Golden Age hits. This means trying to avoid war before we get Republic. We've already got a good advantage over our continental opponents. Having a golden age under Republic would catapult us far past them.

-Sirp.
 
I will play and post tonight
 
Preturn: Change Sparta to granary.

1) 1350 BC Athens Settler -> Hoplite. Move Settler and Hoplite from Athens towards the great lake. Worker NW of Pharsalos starts road. Warrior in the Land Beyond the Choke moves east and finds barb camp and Wine. Warrior in South and North explore - North finds wounded horse barb. Two workers by Thermopylae move to plains for road/irrigation.

IT Warrior in North fights horse barb and wins (no promo) Warrior in South sees barb a few tiles away

2) 1325 BC Sparta Granary -> Hoplite. Move Settler/Hopi westward. Two workers by Thermopylae road. Warrior of the Choke whacks barb camp ($25) and finds HUT. Warrior of North moves north and finds barb camp. Warrior of South finds barb camp.

IT Nada

3) 1300 BC Warrior of South kills camp ($25). Warrior of the Choke has a nice chat about life and the universe with the Sumarians and learns PHILOSOpHY. Workers road horse by Therm. Warrior of the North kills camp ($25) Settler/Hopi move south. Target: Forest 1s 1SE of cow (on river)

IT Nada

4) 1275 BC Athens Hopi -> Hopi -> Give Athens time to grow from 5 to 6. Next is settler. Warrior of Choke moves to hill. The land beyond the choke is fairly large and fertile. After settling the Great Lake region, I say we stake a claim up here. I am also going to block the choke again soon to prevent the Babs from getting up here (They should be a while before getting MM / galleys) Warrior of North moves N up to the Bab border. Workers by Therm finish road when I realize a weed. All along, the original grassland they were roading when I started was a BG. I did not mine it (Doh). Doing so now. Warrior of South moves N

IT See Bab settlement party (guarded by warrior) two tiles north of Warrior of north. I am going to try to run some interference with the warrior of the North. Horses connected to Athens.

5) 1250 BC Sparta Hopi -> Settler (growth from 5 to 6 next turn). Warrior of South moves N and sees a Barb. Two settlers by Phars move S to start road to soon to be new city. Settler / Hopi move South. Warrior of choke explores more and I see a barb

IT. Babs move South

6) 1225 BC Athen Hopi -> Settler (in 4, growth to size 7 in 4) Warrior of choke kills barb. Worker by Delphi finish irriagtion starts road. MM Sparta to prevent riots next turn. Sparta will grow to size 7 in 5, complete settler in 5) Will time new settler with growth to seven. Warrior of south still fencing with barb. Warrior of Choke kills barb, loses a point. Warrior of North will attempt to block the Babs.

IT Babs Move S.

7) 1200 BC Works by therm finsih mine, irrigate plain. Warrior of Choke explores. Build Argos. Set to Temple (culture to fight Aztecs). Should switch to Library upon Lit.

IT Russia builds Colussus. Jaguar slays barb. Babs move South. They will build a city here.

8) 1175 BC Move workers. Warrior of N moves S. Warrior of S moves N. Warrior of choke explores.

IT Babs move - I was worng

9) 1150 BC. Delphi worker moves to grass for mining. Warriors move around. Warrior of North moves S and finds barb camp. Warrior of Choke finds hut.

IT Babs build Akkad

10) 1125 BC. Athens Settler -> Temple. Move Settler to west. Delphi worker mines. Workers by Therm irrigate. Workers by Phars ove to next tile of plains to irrigate/mine, Warrior of North dies against barb camp. Warrior of choke fortify to get healthy before opening up goddy hut.

Parting notes: Settler should go for plains west of Iron mountainon south of Great Lake nestled by wheat, iron and fish (+ horsies near by) Athens set to temple - can veto. Lit next turn. Juicy land in the Choke. Sparta settler next turn

Rome - 4 cities, we are up HBR and Philo
Aztecs - 4 cities, we are up Philo
Babs - 5 Cities, we are up Philo, HBR, Pottery
 
1125bc map.jpg
 
Here's the pic.
1125bc_map.jpg
 
Well... I gave it a go =o) There were a few slip-ups Sorry!

1100BC - We just got literature - went for Code of Laws so we can head for the
Republic next. Sparta finished their Settler - started them on a library.
Moving the settler and hoplite right along...

1075BC - I am moving one settler on one side of the lake and one on the other.
Popped a hut... We got a skilled warrior. Trying to get some workers to that
cattle next to Athens.

1050BS - Note:The Aztecs are building the Oracle. ACK! I messed this up :(
There was a barbarian approaching Argos so I went after it with our hoplite -
leaving the city unprotected :(

1025BC - Shock of all shocks - the barbarians took 25 gold! Thermopylae went into
civil disorder. Checked the city screen - everyone else looks good. Have a
building a road to the incense. Both settlers are almost in position. I have
another hoplite headed for Argos.

1000BC - Athens just went into civil disorder. I don't understand why :( They
were fine when I just checked them. Our hoplite is in Argos now and the workers
are ready to irrigate the cows. Now it looks like the Aztecs have settled on our
good spot.

975BC - Now Sparta has gone into civil disorder. I'm going to raise the slider.
We have settled Mycenae on the north side of the lake. Got a barbarian camp and
earned back those 25 gold. ahhh a little redemption =o) The 2 warriors we have
exploring - one took out a barbarian and they have a camp very near. Those 2
workers cant irrigate

950BC - Athens finished their temple - started them on a Library. I'm having
trouble finding a spot for that settler. The build city icon isn't coming up.
The 2 barbarians in the north - 1 of them attacked the barbarian camp and didn't
do too well. He's gonna get it now...

925BC - Corinth finished their Barracks. Started them on a Granary. Ottoman
finished the Oracle. I checked with the Babylonians, Romans, and Aztecs... none
of them had any techs we didn't already have. I settled Herakleia by some iron
and cattle wheat near by... but I'm not sure if it will be in our range.

900BC - Thermopylae has finished their granary - they are starting a library.
Sparta is in civil disorder. The Babylonians are working on the Pyramids.

875BC - We completed a road to incense. Order restored in Sparta. Sparta
finished their library - started them on barracks. We got another warrior by
popping a village in the north.

The Game
 
Originally posted by Sirp
I think everyone is aware of the power of the Pyramids. Lots of early expansion, but this wonder also helps right until the end of the game, since captured cities will always have granaries and expand faster, and all those granaries are free, so no maintenance! The Pyramids is always a powerful wonder - unless you're playing an OCC or 5CC or some other city-reduced game, or on a tiny map.

Very interesting game! I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot...

@Sirp: Pryramids also aren't very useful (definately not worth the shields) on an archipelago type map, like GOTM17...
 
Darkness: The Pyramids are almost always useful. They are less useful on archipelagos, but still very useful. You can go and settle a city on any island, and it grows at double the rate it would otherwise; you also pay less upkeep all game long than you would otherwise.

In my Always War on Deity game (see the Stories & Tales forum)- small map, archipelago - the Mongols (no, not the Indians, or French, or any of those builder types, but the Mongols), built the Pyramids, and they soared past everyone else; they had faster growing cities on all land masses - I attribute their superiority largely to their Pyramids build.

That said, the place where the Pyramids are *really* game unbalancing is a Pangea on a large or hugemap.

-Sirp.
 
Ok Shaesha, some comments on your turn:

1100BC - We just got literature - went for Code of Laws so we can head for the Republic next. Sparta finished their Settler - started them on a library.

Good move here; we want the Republic ASAP! Good move to change Sparta to library. We want to get those cattle in range.

There was a barbarian approaching Argos so I went after it with our hoplite -

Hmm...hoplites are 3 at defense and 1 at attack. You should almost *never* attack with a hoplite. (I say 'almost' cause I have done it on occasion when I'm desperate! :) )

Athens just went into civil disorder. I don't understand why They were fine when I checked them

Ok, you're going to have to work on fundamentals a little. Any time this happens, try saving the game, and then trying to load the auto-save from the last turn, just to see what went wrong.

Athens finished their temple - started them on a Library

You should probably have vetoed the temple and gone for a library straight away, however good work to switch to a library here, although we do want to avoid Athens going to size 7, so another settler before the library might have been better.



Sparta is in civil disorder.

ok, you are *really* going to have to work on this aspect :)

Most of your turn you made good decisions, but you did let far too many cities go into disorder.

The other major mistake you made was founding Mycenae too near the Aztec city. Only very, very rarely should you build a city only one tile away from another city. This will surely make the Aztecs very angry with us. We'll have to be watchful of them.

You should have given up on the idea of the city being on the lake, and moved it north, to get the spices in range. We're going to have to get a library in the city to beat the Aztecs culturally, and perhaps fight a war with them over it.

One good thing you did was hook up our incense. I was just waiting, not saying anything about this. I suspected that after I said, at the start of the game, that hooking up luxuries was a lower priority, some players would be scared of getting :whipped: and so would avoid hooking them up until I gave the 'ok'. Well, I didn't give the ok, just to see exactly how long this would last.

We now have six cities hooked up to our trade network. It's definitely a good move now!

Also good work on the pre-emptive worker-move down to the cattle to get it ready for when Sparta's borders grow.

Happiness management, and perhaps city placement are your two biggest issues: you had entertainers running in a few cities. You have to get a strong grasp of happiness, and how to keep cities out of civil disorder. Hopefully by the end of this game you'll have a much stronger grasp on it :)

-Sirp.
 
I forgot to mention in my notes, but after the formation of Argos, I was informed by our advisors that the FP is now an option.

- Stormrider

p.s. Sirp. Any comments on my turn? Always looking for improvement in my playing style.
 
@ Sirp
Great game and great idea to have a trainings game like that.
Reading the thread I just realise HOW MUCH I do not know or where I should really pay more attention in my games.

Pity that I didn't stumble over this earlier, I would have loved to play.

I will certainly keep coming here.

One question (might be stupid)
Originally posted by Sirp
Hmm...hoplites are 3 at defense and 1 at attack. You should almost *never* attack with a hoplite. (I say 'almost' cause I have done it on occasion when I'm desperate! :) )
-Sirp.
Does it mean that the 3 defence do not count when attacking yourself?

Shevek
 
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