Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs

Originally posted by Sirp
Darkness: The Pyramids are almost always useful. They are less useful on archipelagos, but still very useful. You can go and settle a city on any island, and it grows at double the rate it would otherwise; you also pay less upkeep all game long than you would otherwise.

According to the manual, the civolopedia, and this site, the Pyramids are only effective on the continent on which they are built (like Sun Tzu and Bach's). It's been a few games since I've both built the pyramids and settled on a second land mass, but I am 99% certain that those second-continent or island cities did *not* get the pyramids effect.

So I don't get this comment. :(

Renata
 
Originally posted by Shevek

One question (might be stupid)

Does it mean that the 3 defence do not count when attacking yourself?

Shevek

That's correct. If you attack another unit, the results are based on your unit's attack value (modified in this case by the attack vs. barbs bonus - what is it on Monarch, anyway?) versus the defender's defense value (modified by terrain or whatever else might apply). Your own defense value only comes into play when someone else attacks you.

Renata
 
I have not looked at the save as I'm at work, so this comment is based on the fact that Sirp said that new city is 1 tile away from one of Monty's cities.

Perhaps we should build a settler out of it at size 2 with no food and abandon it. (I think that's how you do that. I have never done it.) With that aggressive a placement, we will probably burn our GA in Despotism. Monty will be on us ASAP. Maybe even build a worker at size 1 if that can be done like the settler trick.

Edit: Or we could lay some smack down on him and raze his city, if we think it can wait till we get Republic.

Just throwing that out for discussion. :)
 
Renata: you're right and I'm stupid :)

gee it's been a while since I've gotten the Pyramids. Nothing like running a Training Day Game to bring up some glaring omissions as to what you know about the game!

So, embarassing correction: The Pyramids start becoming good when you are planning to build at least six or so cities on your starting landmass, the more cities the better. If you are on a very small island, then indeed they are not terribly useful.

-Sirp.
 
Originally posted by Sirp
Renata: you're right and I'm stupid :)

I'm sorry, I just had to quote that. :lol:

Just kidding. Probably just so I don't get a swelled head, I also found out today that this comment of mine from page 2

The food bonus is only +1 (wine or game), and it's on plains. In this case the despotism penalty kills it, so I might as well mine for the shields.

is incorrect. Game is actually plus 2 (manual's wrong again), as several people pointed out in the GOTM16 strategy/discussion thread.

Live and learn,
Renata
 
stormrider: Yeah sorry for not commenting on your turn earlier. Here goes...

4) 1275 BC Athens Hopi -> Hopi -> Give Athens time to grow from 5 to 6.

We're building alot of military in Athens when it *still* doesn't have a barracks. It would be nice to be able to start getting veteran hoplites out.

In my opinion, it's a more common mistake of Regent/Monarch-level players to feel they have to build barracks too early, hating the 'inefficiency' of spending shields on regular troops. Here we're doing the mistake in reverse! We're not getting barracks for too long, and so churning out too many regular troops.

Regular hoplites aren't so bad, as they're probably still better than veteran spearmen, but veteran hoplites would be really nice.

Ditto with not hooking up the luxuries. We have six cities hooked up to our trade network by the end of your turn, but no work on hooking up the incense. Lots of players make hooking up luxuries a priority, but we're going the other way. Now that we have eight cities and seven workers, I think we can afford to spare the resources to do it.

Athens Settler -> Temple

Hmm...is this meant to be a prebuild for a library? :)

That's what it should be: a library is cheaper and will do more for us in Athens than a temple will. Remember we're scientific, libraries are going to be our bread-and-butter as far as cultural improvements go. We'll want temples too of course, but they're generally less beneficial and more expensive (for us) than libraries.

Rome - 4 cities, we are up HBR and Philo

If you mean that Rome has 4 cities, then you're wrong; they have 5 cities, you have to add in their capital.

---

Corinth building a barracks is questionable in my mind. The one thing it needs in my mind is workers, as it's not going to be productive enough to build many troops even after the barracks is done. This isn't a terribly bad move, but keep in mind that we want barracks in our core cities.

Other than these comments, you did very well. You explored well, and it paid off, with a bonus discovery from a hut (btw guys, the harder the level, the less and less discoveries you're going to get from huts. I very rarely get discoveries from huts in the games I play these days, unless I'm expansionistic).

Argos was founded in a good location. It should be a powerful city. We've kept our cities advantage over the AI, and are looking like we're really going to dominate our starting landmass.

The Roster:

Matt_g
Stormrider
Shaesha <--- Just played
Sirp <--- UP NOW
Renata <--- On Deck

I'm going to play right now.

-Sirp.
 
I'm sorry, I just had to quote that.

It's ok; I wouldn't like giving players the wrong idea, and if I want to run a TDG, and say things that are wrong, I can expect to be publically humiliated :)

Anyhow, one of the reasons I wanted to run the quizzes is to show how you don't have to know that much to be able to win on high levels. I can win on Deity, and uhh....we can all see that there are a few glaring gaps in my knowledge.

Oh yes, about quizzes, it's time for another one!

Corruption, Waste, and the Forbidden Palace
---
(1) What are Corruption and Waste? What do they do?
(2) What are the ways to fix Corruption and Waste? What is the Forbidden Palace and what does it do?
more subjectively,
(3) We can now build the Forbidden Palace in our game. Where should we think about building it?

-Sirp.
 
(IT) 875BC: Veto library in Athens for settler. We'll build a library. Luxuries cut to 10%. Delphi switched to a much cheaper library (2 turns) instead of a temple (12 turns) to get the whales and fish in range.

We do need *some* defense, so Thermopylae is switched to a horseman. It has a barracks, so it can build military for us.

Cattle just outside of Sparta's borders is *mined* - irrigating it would improve our food surplus from 5 to 6, and that wouldn't give any benefit at all.

(1) 850BC: Athens builds settler, set to build a library. We need to start pushing up past the choke. There's a heap of fertile land up there!

We discover Code of Laws, and start towards The Republic, of course!

Ok, we deal with Rome: Map Making (monopoly), World Map, 60 gold, for Literature, HBR, and Code of Laws (Monopoly), and our World Map. Expensive, yeah, but that's what buying a monopoly tech can cost you.

We then sell Code of Laws to Montezuma for 50 gold and his World Map.

We then sell our World Map to Hammurabi for his World Map and 50 gold. He *still* doesn't have communications with anyone else remember. Let's see how long this'll last for :)

Guess what? That land up past the choke point wraps round, and Babylon has access to it through another choke point on the northern end of the continent. Looks like the race is on, us vs Babylon to see who can colonize more of it!

(2) 825BC: Our warrior in the south beats a couple of Roman warriors to a barbarian encampment by one turn and gets 25 gold. I whip out the library in Knossos.

(3) 800BC: Pharsalos builds Library. Changed to Worker.

(4) 775BC: Sparta builds a settler and now has the second cattle in range. This means it can grow every 2 turns. This is the first time in our game that growth rates have outstripped shield production for getting settlers. However at the moment Sparta is building a galley, which will be followed by workers. It'll actually get to size 7, but we really want one galley, and it grows so fast that that's not going to matter much.

(5) 750BC: Thermopylae builds our first offensive military unit: a horseman. Set to build a library. Delphi's borders expand, instantly transforming it from a backwater to a powerful fishing town. Hmm...I decide to switch it from worker to galley, and Sparta from galley to worker.

Ok, our settler/hoplite pair is in position to found an aggressive city near the Romans, cutting them off from iron. We'll likely surrender the southern wedge of fertile land to them and the Aztecs, but we do want to contain any expansion toward us.

(6) 730BC: Athens builds library. It's set to building a settler, and Sparta builds a worker - it's set to building another. Ephesus is founded in the south, near Rome.

The Babylonians have *finally* researched a great invention...pottery! They still don't have contact with anyone else.

I start irrigating grassland now, as we have 12 turns to Republic, and it's going to be real useful real soon.

(7) 710BC: Barbarian warrior attacks our hoplite/settler pair. Our hoplite wins, after losing one, and now a barbarian horseman is in view. Oh boy, there are going to be lots of barbarians up in that area, we're going to be very thankful that we have hoplites I think. :)

Corinth builds a worker -> hoplite. It has a barracks, and we'd love to have a couple of veteran hoplites roaming around.

Pharsalos builds a worker -> temple; it's time to start rolling out the happiness improvements.

We start on the tedious business of starting to build a road up toward Knossos.

(8) 690BC: Uhh...some Aztec troops are at our borders. Are they wanting to attack us now? They have a jag outside Mycenae, and a jag and archer on the border with Argos. I move our horseman in position to counter any attack. Workers are moved back.

This reminds me, hooking up that iron at some point would be good. That way, we could upgrade warriors -> swordsmen for instant military power.

(9) 670BC: The jag near Mycenae heads north. Going for some barbarians maybe? I trade WM with him, since he'll know where the barbarian encampments are. But there don't seem to be any up there. Going to contact Babylon?

The jag near Argos withdraws, but the archer skirts along the border.

With the bonus from forest-cutting, Sparta is switched to building a barracks. It'll have to grow to size 7, but it can handle that. We do need cities which can produce troops fast if needed.

Thermopylae has grown to size 6 and would go into disorder, so I move our horseman back there, for MP.

(10) 650BC: I'm really not sure what the Aztecs are playing at exactly. Their jag continues to skirt our borders in the north. A barbarian approaches Corinth, which has a worker right next to it. I have to move Corinth's defense out onto the worker to defend him, while I move Pharsalos' defense into Corinth, leaving Pharsalos undefended, something which I'm not willing to do with a jag so near the border, so I move the horse from Thermopylae to Pharsalos, and have to set an entertainer in Thermopylae.

Warrior up north disperses a barbarian encampment, getting $25.

Sparta has happiness problems, but I adjust bonus grassland -> fresh water, to get it more luxuries and that keeps people happy.

----

We have 11 cities.
Rome has 8 cities, and is -philosophy, which we have a monopoly on.
Azteca has 9 cities, and is -philosophy, -map making.
Babylon has 6 cities, and is -philosophy, -literature, -map making, -horseback riding

Babylon *still* doesn't have contact with Azteca or Rome. We can't get a great deal out of selling contact either, so I say let it last as long as it lasts!

The hoplite/settler pair in the north is intended for the wines right next to the barb encampment. This way the encampment can be popped and we guarantee ourselves a source of wines.

We're really a little short on defense here guys. we now have 11 workers, which is starting to get to a reasonable number (we'll want 30+ eventually though).

We'll almost certainly want to revolt to Republic as soon as we can. Especially with the Aztecs looking like they might want war with us: we want our golden age to be in Republic, not despotism! Also, if Monty does attack, try to deny him any victories with a jag. This will deny him his Golden Age.

Oh yes, just a note: I noticed that some of you have been checking diplomacy with each of our rivals every single turn. While this isn't a bad move, it's not something I do to be honest. Why not? Well, it's tedious, especially at this stage in the game, where turns otherwise go fairly fast, and in most cases it doesn't gain alot. If you have a technology, and you want to trade it at the first opportunity before anyone else does, then yes it's a good idea. Otherwise, if they discover a technology, you'll learn about it soon enough, you don't have to check every single turn.

The other main reason to check every turn is to buy workers. This used to be incredibly effective as it'd only cost 40 gold for a worker, and if you did it early on, it'd give you a huge advantage, and cripple your opponent. I considered this so effective it was borderline exploitive, and though I'd often buy workers if I saw them available, I wouldn't go into diplomacy every turn to see if there were some available. These days, workers are more reasonably priced, so these concerns are lessened.

I'm not saying there's anything bad about checking out each rival each turn, but I am saying that it's not something you have to do to be a high level player if you don't want to do it. I like concentrating on aspects of the game that involve strategy and skill, rather than aspects (like this, imho), that involve little or no skill, but are simply mechanical.

I mention this mainly because when I was a fairly bad player, I would read articles, tips, and strategies of others, and concluded that to be a good player, you had to primarily concern yourself with perfecting a mechanical playing style, that I knew would drain (for me at least) all fun out of the game. It wasn't until later that I realized it was possible to win on Emperor/Deity and still have lots of fun. (although before one of the patches, Deity did have limited fun value. It was fun the one time I beat it back then, but I'm not sure if I would have liked to repeat that gruelling experience too many times. Kudos to Firaxis for making Deity both fun and very challenging, even if it took several patches to do so).

Renata, you're up! Matt_g is on deck.

Good luck!

-Sirp.

The Game
 
Sirp,

Thanks for the review. Here is what was or wasn't going on in my head:

I agree we would lie veteran units. However, by making that extra Hopi in Athens before the settler, I MM Athens to grow to seven and produce settler at same time. I then had an instant escort for the settler

I did intend that Athens switch to Library. As I qwas rushing through my writeup, I infered, but did not actually say that the temple was a place holder.

Duh, I forgot to add the capital. I thought the AI city count was too low.

I inhereted the barracks in Corinth from Matt who left it up to a future player to possibly switch to Granary. I did nothing with this city and left it 'as is'. I should have mentioned that it my parting notes
 
Originally posted by Sirp

Corruption, Waste, and the Forbidden Palace
---
(1) What are Corruption and Waste? What do they do?
(2) What are the ways to fix Corruption and Waste? What is the Forbidden Palace and what does it do?
more subjectively,
(3) We can now build the Forbidden Palace in our game. Where should we think about building it?
-Sirp.

1) Lost shields and lost commerce (other way around technically, I think, but I tend to use them interchangeably) due to distance from the capital and/or forbidden palace, and/or excessive number of cities.

2) Ways to fix: you get improvement if you
- are connected to the capital via road or harbor
- have a courthouse (and later, a police station)
- are in We Love the King Day
Sometimes, all of these together won't redeem a city; sometimes all of them together will bring a city from 1 spt up to an artillery or a cav in 10 turns.

The forbidden palace acts as a second capital with regards to corruption/waste, so can improve the output of more distant cities than if you were relying on just the palace.

3) Need to look at the save. Unless I get a leader from a very early war (in which case I will build it in a central location in the conquered territory), I generally like to build it fairly close to my capital (how close depends on map size - I want no less than 4 or 5 uncorrupted shields per turn). If I do build it close I try to put it in a town with good potential in a central location. That way the option is open to move the palace later if the right opportunity presents itself, and little will be lost to corruption in the original core.

I prefer to (but am not always able to) build the FP early, and usually manage somewhere in the range of 500 BC to 500 AD.

Renata

ps Got it (well technically not -- I'm not at home and can't download yet :p ), and plan to play late tonight or early tomorrow.
 
oh, one more thing that I think I forgot: We want to whip the library out of Mycenae as soon as the shields needed get down to 19. This will be pretty close to the time we discover the republic, so just stay in despotism long enough to whip out the library. This'll help us win the culture war with the Aztecs: even if they build a temple in there, we'll still get more culture, and a library would be expensive for them to build.

-Sirp.
 
The soon-to-be Greek Republic in 450 BC:

SP4-450BC.JPG
 
Preturn: Wow, the map sure has opened up since the last time I played. The north country's nice except for lack of water - will take eons to get irrigation up there with all that jungle in the way.

IT: The barb by Corinth impales himself on our hoplite.

(1) 630 BC: Athens produces settler (no escort available), set to barracks. If I'm calculating right, we can get the barracks plus the next settler by the time Athens grows to size 7 again at 10 shields/ 3 food per turn. After that Athens'll be able to build vet hoplites between settlers. Settler sent toward Knossos w/o escort - that warrior up in the north can be MP for a town up there once he gets back. Settler/hoplite pair continue toward wine, killing barb horsie on the way. The Corinth/Pharsalos/Thermopylae defender shuffle is partially reversed - the river south of Corinth slows us down. At least it's fast in the outward direction. Worker near Argos starts on forest chop - will need to remember to set Argos to something that can absorb the shields after the library finishes.

(2) 610 BC: Sparta goes to size 7, gets a taxman. Barracks built, worker next to shed some pop before temple build. Defender shuffle completed. Thermo's ok at size 6 for for now, so library --> hoplite. Think I can build worker next to keep pop under 7. Pharsalos switched to barracks from temple, due in 8 .. I may change my mind about this again, but the town's only size 3 and we don't really need a temple yet. Military we do need. Our hoplite up north kills a barb horse, which takes us one step out of the way to the city site. I really really really need to know the odds for attack vs. barbarian on this level to know how much of a risk that was. We win with 1 hp damage, though. Our reg warrior in Knossos attacks the other barb horse and wins with no damage, promoting in the process. More forestry begun near Corinth. One bit of silliness - hit 'mine' for worker near Athens when I meant to irrigate, so irrigation will be delayed one turn. Diplo check (because I wanna :p ) --- looks like Babylon's finally met the other two civs, although they're still backward..

(3) 590 BC: Delphi galley ---> galley. Knossos goes into unrest - I had forgotten about the whipping there since I read the the turn report lo these many hours ago. Warrior will be moved back, at any rate. Loss of one turn on hoplite. Settler pair arrives at wine, galley heads southeast. Various Aztec forces still lurking about our southern borders, but nothing overtly threatening. Our southeastern warrior is heading for a barb camp down there but looks like the Romans will beat us to it by half a turn. Unless they get killed first, of course.

(4) 570 BC: Sparta worker --> worker. Thessalonica founded on wine tile as requested, collecting 25 gold, starts worker.

(5) 550 BC: Athens completes barracks, starts hoplite. Working forest plus mined incense hill gets us hoplite/settler plus growth in five. So settler will be up next. Here's a thought for the short-term. Switch our settler factory from Athens to Sparta? True, it's further away from where we'll be settling than Athens is, but it's also the ideal +5 food (which Athens isn't), and has the shields to keep up. Thermopylae hoplite ---> worker, due in 2, same as growth. The hoplite will stay home as MP for the short-term. (Republic in 2.) Babylon builds the Pyramids - good for them! ;) Our hoplite at Thessalonica attacks barb warrior and wins w/o damage - with luck the empty town willl also draw that stray barb horse back away from Knossos - that warrior is just too vulnerable.

(6) 530 BC: Yep, barb horsie took the bait. Sparta worker --- temple (will be hurried some with forestry). With one turn left on republic, science down to 20%, netting us a whopping +21. Some plans for the revolution: libraries finish in Herakleia and Argos next turn. The ones in Mycenae and Ephesus will finish the turn after that (pop rushes, in Ephesus with help from forestry). I am working on the assumption that culture does not accumulate during revolutions, so would like to wait until the borders expand. ETA on that about five turns, unless I'm calculating wrong, which will leave the anarchy for the next player. If the Aztecs *are* inclined to attack, that's probably when they'll do it. At the moment there are no Aztec units in sight (other than Xochicalco's defense).

(7) 510 BC: Dead barb horsie. Republic in, research started on currency at max. Athens hoplite --> settler. Thermopylae worker - temple. Corinth hoplite - hoplite. Argos library - barracks. Herakleia library - temple. Mycenae library rushed. Ephesus --- arrgh -- I overlooked that it wasn't at size 2 yet. Needs 4 more turns. Nothing I could have done to speed growth, though. Next player can decide if it's worth waiting for. The town is under cultural pressure from both sides now, with Tlaxcala's borders expanded, but we're leading Aztecs and Rome in the culture department (Rome by a lot), so I don't think it's under heavy threat just yet. We *do* beat the Romans to the southern barb camp, but they spawned a horse, so Rome will probably get it after all. Aztecs have a jag/settler pair heading north from Xochicalco. Sparta's sixth citizen has to be put on the fresh water again to prevent revolt.

(8) 490 BC: Yep, the Romans get the barb camp. Mycenae library - barracks. Can be changed to anything worth at least 20 shields, as the forestry will finish in seven. Worker there should road the spice next. Sparta put on zero growth with high shields pending temple completion. Should finish in four with forestry. We trade our world map to everyone, collecting nothing much. Babylon's picked up another tech, possibly from Rome, because Rome now has money (130-something), and Babylon's broke. Worker near Herakleia moved onto iron mountain.

(9) 470 BC: Well, I miscalculated *again*. Temple in Sparta due in four, needing 25 shields, making 8 per turn. Can't see any way to improve the situation, short of increasing lux, and I don't want to lose 2 turns on currency for a one-turn-faster temple. Frustrating, though -- I assume I will figure out eventually where I'm miscalculating, but I *always* seem to be off by one shield when I try. Rhodes founded on choke north of Knossos, set to worker. The northern warrior will be there next turn as defense.

(10) 450 BC: Athens builds another settler; set to hoplite. Pharsalos barracks- hoplite. Border expansions at Herakleia and Argos - Mycenae will be next turn. We steal a tile from Xochicalco. :D Library can be rushed in Ephesus next turn. I've switched Corinth to horseman so as not to waste any shields - next player can still switch back and waste only two, though, if unit needed faster. Iron hook-up due in 8. We don't really have much in the way of warriors to upgrade (7, and 3 of those are regular), but I guess you can't have everything. We have a spare hoplite on the iron as well right now and our horseman is south of Argos spying on the Aztecs. One Aztec archer in view near Ephesus. City count: us 13, Aztecs 9, Romans 9, Babylon 7. Currency due in 4, now at -17 gpt; we still have 245 gold left. We're up Philo and Lit on the babs, just philo on the other two. Rome will offer WM plus all his gold (118) for philo; the other two are broke.

I've been thinking about an FP location. If we are planning at one point or another to take out the Aztecs (and with them having good open land and a lux we don't have, I'm tempted), then Argos, with bonus food, good production, and fresh water, would be a good spot for it to build by hand. That would, of course, leave most of the land north of the choke rather corrupt, but it's going to be a long long time to get that land halfway productive anyway due to the lack of fresh water up there. Babylonian territory is crippled by lack of rivers; Roman territory is decent but not as good as Azteca. They do have a smidge of desert, which may be important in the future (oil); there's not much desert or tundra on the map so far and we have none of what there is.

As far as wonders, I suspect it may be too late to start on any of the early ones and still expect to get them. Athens and Sparta are our best shield producers currently, at 10 and 8 spt respectively; both will go up once we're a republic.

Anyway, that's it for now. Good luck whoever's up next (Matt?) and vive la revolution!

450 BC

Renata
 
I will comment on Renata's turn when I get the chance. Here is the current roster:

Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- On deck
Shaesha
Sirp
Renata <--- Just played
 
The north country's nice except for lack of water - will take eons to get irrigation up there with all that jungle in the way.

It will indeed. The land up there is fertile enough, but it is a long way away from our capital, and I don't think it will ever be terribly productive for us. Not before the game is won or lost anyhow.

Athens produces settler (no escort available)

Because of the lack of an escort, I actually sent this settler west, and settled in the jungle in my shadow. Your move was fine though, a little more risky perhaps.

that warrior up in the north can be MP for a town up there once he gets back

That's good thinking, although in my shadow that warrior barely survived, with all those barbarian horsemen around!

Our hoplite up north kills a barb horse, which takes us one step out of the way to the city site.

Do you mean you attacked with the hoplite? Umm...really I don't think this was a good move. Far better to let them attack us! The odds are +50%, I think, but you'd have better odds with them attacking us. In my shadow I just went around them, and got to the city site fine.

If you had lost the hoplite, I hope you would have done the sensible thing and settled the settler where he stood.

One bit of silliness - hit 'mine' for worker near Athens when I meant to irrigate, so irrigation will be delayed one turn.

It is generally considered acceptable to reload the game in the case of a misclick. Of course, your last save might have been at the beginning of the turn, and you didn't want to go back that far.

(3) 590 BC: Delphi galley ---> galley

Good move, maximize the chance of us being the first to make contact with civilizations on foreign continents.

Knossos goes into unrest - I had forgotten about the whipping there

I must admit that the same thing happened in my shadow. It's normal to assume that a size 1 city just isn't going to go into civil disorder.

Switch our settler factory from Athens to Sparta? True, it's further away from where we'll be settling than Athens is, but it's also the ideal +5 food (which Athens isn't), and has the shields to keep up.
..... Republic in 2

Considering the Republic is coming so soon, don't you think Athens is about to become a +5 food city too? :)

They'll probably both churn out a few workers and settlers for a while. Athens will probably stop doing that first though, growing to a size 12 power-center, while Sparta keeps building workers and settlers. Remember, when we are in Republic, Sparta and Athens will be able to produce a worker a turn between them!

Babylon builds the Pyramids - good for them!

These are probably our preferred civilization to get the Pyramids. Their growth has been badly hampered by surrounding terrain, and I don't think the Pyramids will help them too much. Still, it might make them halfway competitive.

I am working on the assumption that culture does not accumulate during revolutions, so would like to wait until the borders expand. ETA on that about five turns,

Culture does not accumulate during anarchy. But uhh...were you :smoke: some of the incense near Athens when you made this decision? :)

I can't see how the border expansion of Herakleia, Mycenae, and Ephesus a little earlier could possibly justify delaying Republic by 4 turns or so. The expansion of Ephesus' borders would hmm...make Antium very marginally more likely to flip to us, and that's about it.

The expansion of Herakleia's borders would make Xochilaco marginally more likely to flip, as would the expansion of Mycenae's.

The only cultural influence we *really* wanted was the tiles right between Xochicalco and Mycenae, and all you need for that is for Mycenae to have more culture than Xochicalco. Since we can assume Xochicalco has no culture at all (if it does have a culture-building we will surely fall behind it in anarchy anyhow), all we need is 1 culture in Mycenae. The library will produce culture on the turn it's produced, so you should have immediately revolted after that.

I can also maybe, very maybe, see you waiting until a couple of other cities could pop-rush libraries, but it wouldn't be so criminal to just rush them with cash once we're in Republic.

Anyhow, Republic is *much* better than Despotism in almost all situations, we want to be there asap, and here you unnecessarily delayed us by five turns.

Ephesus --- arrgh -- I overlooked that it wasn't at size 2 yet. Needs 4 more turns. Nothing I could have done to speed growth, though. Next player can decide if it's worth waiting for.

Umm...we're already waiting long enough! We want Republic asap!

I assume I will figure out eventually where I'm miscalculating, but I *always* seem to be off by one shield when I try.

hmm....really? Wish I could help here, but I'm really not sure what'd be wrong with your calculations without knowing more :)

Rhodes founded on choke north of Knossos, set to worker. The northern warrior will be there next turn as defense.

Good work here. Rhodes can act as a canal-city into that inland sea. This could be very valuable strategically later on. Specifically, if we want to attack the Babylonians, we could sail ships into the inland sea, and strike at their core. Now what was it you were saying about the Babylonians having built the Pyramids? :) I said we couldn't build the Pyramids, I didn't say we couldn't capture them!

Other than the mistake with delaying revolution, your turn was very solid Renata. I will discuss your comments on the Forbidden Palace soon.

-Sirp.
 
Got it.
 
Sirp - I have heard over the #civfanatics that there may be still room. I still would like to sign up for this game to fill in a missing player.

BTW, if I do Join in, what Version of PTW are we using?.

Here is the list of TDG I have went trhough:


  • Civ3 Traning Certificates
  • Basic Training of Civ3 (Self-Tought Cheftan)
  • Pad 1 R SG (Teacher: Chieftess Regent)
 
on corruption...

1) Lost shields and lost commerce (other way around technically, I think, but I tend to use them interchangeably) due to distance from the capital and/or forbidden palace, and/or excessive number of cities.

Yeah, these terms are alot like 'resources' and 'luxuries', the term 'resources' can refer to them both collectively, just like 'corruption' is often used to refer to both.

2) Ways to fix: you get improvement if you
- are connected to the capital via road or harbor
- have a courthouse (and later, a police station)
- are in We Love the King Day
Sometimes, all of these together won't redeem a city; sometimes all of them together will bring a city from 1 spt up to an artillery or a cav in 10 turns.

The forbidden palace acts as a second capital with regards to corruption/waste, so can improve the output of more distant cities than if you were relying on just the palace.

Yes, this pretty much covers it. Except that you can also choose a Commercial civilization!

A city has a certain corruption percentage that is worked out. A courthouse might be able to cut corruption by 20%. However, corruption can go over 100%. It could be 160% in some distant colony for instance. Building a courthouse in such a city and cutting it down to 140% isn't going to do anything for you!

If a city is producing more than one shield, you know its corruption is below 100%, and a courthouse is potentially useful. Cities always produce at least one shield, even if they are hopelessly corrupt.

3) Need to look at the save. Unless I get a leader from a very early war (in which case I will build it in a central location in the conquered territory), I generally like to build it fairly close to my capital (how close depends on map size - I want no less than 4 or 5 uncorrupted shields per turn). If I do build it close I try to put it in a town with good potential in a central location. That way the option is open to move the palace later if the right opportunity presents itself, and little will be lost to corruption in the original core.

I prefer to (but am not always able to) build the FP early, and usually manage somewhere in the range of 500 BC to 500 AD.

Building the FP early is the only way to go. Getting your FP online is a BIG step to dramatically improving your economy and moving towards winning the game.

The middle of the Middle Ages is the latest you should have your FP built by.

Let's examine for a moment how corruption works:

There are two types of corruption...

(1) Corruption that effects cities based on which number city they are from the capital. The city closest to the capital suffers the least, the city second closest to the capital suffers a little more. The city third closest to the capital suffers a little more again. This corruption does not care about the actual distance from the capital, only about which 'place' it is.

Because of this corruption ,if you build a new city close to the capital, every city which is further away from the capital than that city will have slightly increased corruption. Because of this, it is not a good idea to build a 'half city' near the capital just to get a few extra tiles.

Note that in Civilization I and Civilization II building a city even on the outskirts of your empire could potentially increase corruption in inner cities. This is no longer the case in Civilization III. Building a new city only has the potential to increase corruption in cities that are further from the capital than it.

(2) Corruption based on distance from the capital. This works simply according to the number of tiles from the capital or the Forbidden Palace.

The effect the FP has on (2) is that it will be the minimum of the distance between the capital and the FP, I believe. I understand the the effect it has on (1) is to increase the 'optimal number of cities'. Essentially, even if you built your FP in your capital - if that were possible, it would help with (1) alot, thought it wouldn't help with (2) at all.

The implication of all this is that an FP built fairly near your capital can easily be 75-80% as effective as an FP built far away from it. Then factor in that nearer your capital is likely to come earlier, and be in a more developed area. It also doesn't rely on the chance of you getting a Great Leader (and even if you do get a GL, why not use him (are there any female GLs?) on an actual Wonder?)

I used to think that a Great Leader early was necessary to having a good game. Now I am always confident I can do well without one. I usually build my FP close to my capital, and only build it far away if I happen to get a Great Leader at a convenient time to. (but at such time, it's often tempting to use them to rush the Great Library or Pyramids).

Anyhow, Argos is a reasonable choice for the FP, especially if we want to take out some or all of Azteca. I had an even closer idea in mind: Thermopylae. It could build the FP in 20 turns or less, and get it running quick. It'd make us have a nice, powerful, solid core.

We'll see how many shields we can get Argos producing though. If we can get it churning out 5+, then that's a definite consideration.

Just one other thing, lots of people seem to like this idea of building the FP near your capital, and then moving your capital. Generally, if you're planning to move your capital, presumably you're moving it to somewhere that is currently fairly corrupt. In that case, you're abandoning your core to a degree (it'd still have the FP there, but there is no denying it will be substantially more corrupt without the palace), in favor of another location that simply doesn't have nearly as much infrastructure yet.

I have *never* been in a game where I have thought that moving the palace would give me more of a chance of winning the game. I can conceive of such a possibility if one had a truly dismal starting location.

So, I have never even tried this strategy, and except perhaps on a largish map, I don't think much of it in most cases. If I build the FP near the capital, there the FP and the capital will stay.

-Sirp.
 
CivGeneral: You are welcome to join; the game will be played with 1.14f. Let us know if you have that version, in which case you're in.

Cheers,

-Sirp.
 
Originally posted by Sirp
CivGeneral: You are welcome to join; the game will be played with 1.14f. Let us know if you have that version, in which case you're in.

Cheers,

-Sirp.

I have both 1.14 and 1.21 Instalation patches with me so that I can freely Downgrade to a 1.14

You would say That I am a Multi-Version user now ;)
Thanks to the Tip the EA and Cheftess gave me on downgrading from a 1.21 to a 1.14 :).

I am gona have to look back to catch up on the lessons.
 
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