Sirp's Training Day Game for Aspiring Monarchs
- Thread starter Sirp
- Start date
It would be a bad idea to do it right now; we'd lose all the beakers we've accumulated toward math.
Here's my reasoning for choosing it in the first place:
The 2nd level ancient era techs are math, writing, horseback riding, iron-working and mysticism (pretty sure those are right, off the top of my head, would have to check to be 100% positive). But at any rate, of those, the most neglected by the AI seems to be math. So that's our best chance for getting first and having to trade around later. If we do get it first, we can, I hope, wind up getting math *and* writing (and possibly horseback riding, too) in about the same time as it would take us to get just writing. I do want to get to republic, by the way, but we're not close to ready yet with no luxes hooked up, no happiness improvements and no marketplaces, so we have time.
Renata
Here's my reasoning for choosing it in the first place:
The 2nd level ancient era techs are math, writing, horseback riding, iron-working and mysticism (pretty sure those are right, off the top of my head, would have to check to be 100% positive). But at any rate, of those, the most neglected by the AI seems to be math. So that's our best chance for getting first and having to trade around later. If we do get it first, we can, I hope, wind up getting math *and* writing (and possibly horseback riding, too) in about the same time as it would take us to get just writing. I do want to get to republic, by the way, but we're not close to ready yet with no luxes hooked up, no happiness improvements and no marketplaces, so we have time.
Renata
Renata, firstly you got the url of the game wrong, it's here - the url for the file server is www.civfanatics.net not www.civfanatics.com
Good stuff exploring the west coast; you found that there are more sources of spices over there, and we don't have to be aggressive towards Babylon to secure ourselves some. One thing that you could have done is pop that village now. We're alot safer these days: the nearest cities are Corinth and Pharsalos, which are both defended by hoplites, don't have any improvements to be pillaged or workers to be killed. Thus all we'd lose if we popped the village and it turned out to be barbarians is the warrior who popped it. (We could even send a hoplite over to pop it)
The Romans getting Antium was going to happen sooner or later, they'd have to have alot of attractive land that we can't see for them not to go for it. Still, a very weedy place to put it for them! Surrounded by fresh water and yet not on it. I don't care what unseen resources lie beneath, that is one badly placed city.
I think you could have done better with your management of Athens: You let it slip to size 3. The settler could have waited, keeping up the 6/4 thing.
Also, you built warriors in Athens. Athens can produce 7 spt at size 4; if you had kept it at that at a minimum, you could have had a hoplite in 3 turns. Even better though, a barracks or temple in Athens wouldn't hurt at all. Just as long as it doesn't reach size 7, waiting for it to get its population/food back up is a good move.
Now....Mathematics vs Writing...
Shaesha is right in that we want to go into Republic. We would go there *now* if we could. The food bonuses in Athens and Sparta alone would be a substantial advantage. We'd end up with less disposable income than we have now with unit maintenance and increased luxury rates, but we'd make it up much quicker with the faster growth and faster workers.
However, you are right in that Mathematics is the least prioritized second-teer technology by the AI. I do like your plan of trying to use it to trade for Horseback Riding, and Writing.
The main concern I have is that the AI might not get writing soon; they may concentrate on the bottom half of the technology tree, or simply research slow. If this game was a Deity game, or an Emperor game, your strategy would probably be the best, on this level - where we can outresearch them if we try hard enough, I'm not so sure.
Certainly, Mathematics, Construction, and even Currency have little use for us in the near future. I don't think we have use for catapults soon. (They are very good for fighting defensive wars, and sometimes offensive ones though). I also observe that none of our cities we have at the moment will ever be 'capable' of building an aqueduct.
Marketplaces are the one thing which we do want, but not yet; we don't have any luxuries hooked up, and aren't close to getting three. We also have lots of research, but are rarely using our cities to generate cash, so they have no use for us yet.
Thus in terms of direct benefits, Writing and its associated technologies are what we want: we want the Republic, and we also want Literature. A temple in Sparta would be nice, but a library would be cheaper and better!
Map Making is also something to aim for. Harbors are a good improvement, and never underestimate the power of the Great Lighthouse.
Overall, I think the Writing/Mathematics choice could go either way; certainly worthy of a good discussion
Our Civilization is doing well. Six cities over the first 55 turns. Congratulations to all involved!
-Sirp.
Good stuff exploring the west coast; you found that there are more sources of spices over there, and we don't have to be aggressive towards Babylon to secure ourselves some. One thing that you could have done is pop that village now. We're alot safer these days: the nearest cities are Corinth and Pharsalos, which are both defended by hoplites, don't have any improvements to be pillaged or workers to be killed. Thus all we'd lose if we popped the village and it turned out to be barbarians is the warrior who popped it. (We could even send a hoplite over to pop it)
The Romans getting Antium was going to happen sooner or later, they'd have to have alot of attractive land that we can't see for them not to go for it. Still, a very weedy place to put it for them! Surrounded by fresh water and yet not on it. I don't care what unseen resources lie beneath, that is one badly placed city.
I think you could have done better with your management of Athens: You let it slip to size 3. The settler could have waited, keeping up the 6/4 thing.
Also, you built warriors in Athens. Athens can produce 7 spt at size 4; if you had kept it at that at a minimum, you could have had a hoplite in 3 turns. Even better though, a barracks or temple in Athens wouldn't hurt at all. Just as long as it doesn't reach size 7, waiting for it to get its population/food back up is a good move.
Now....Mathematics vs Writing...
Shaesha is right in that we want to go into Republic. We would go there *now* if we could. The food bonuses in Athens and Sparta alone would be a substantial advantage. We'd end up with less disposable income than we have now with unit maintenance and increased luxury rates, but we'd make it up much quicker with the faster growth and faster workers.
However, you are right in that Mathematics is the least prioritized second-teer technology by the AI. I do like your plan of trying to use it to trade for Horseback Riding, and Writing.
The main concern I have is that the AI might not get writing soon; they may concentrate on the bottom half of the technology tree, or simply research slow. If this game was a Deity game, or an Emperor game, your strategy would probably be the best, on this level - where we can outresearch them if we try hard enough, I'm not so sure.
Certainly, Mathematics, Construction, and even Currency have little use for us in the near future. I don't think we have use for catapults soon. (They are very good for fighting defensive wars, and sometimes offensive ones though). I also observe that none of our cities we have at the moment will ever be 'capable' of building an aqueduct.
Marketplaces are the one thing which we do want, but not yet; we don't have any luxuries hooked up, and aren't close to getting three. We also have lots of research, but are rarely using our cities to generate cash, so they have no use for us yet.
Thus in terms of direct benefits, Writing and its associated technologies are what we want: we want the Republic, and we also want Literature. A temple in Sparta would be nice, but a library would be cheaper and better!
Map Making is also something to aim for. Harbors are a good improvement, and never underestimate the power of the Great Lighthouse.
Overall, I think the Writing/Mathematics choice could go either way; certainly worthy of a good discussion
Our Civilization is doing well. Six cities over the first 55 turns. Congratulations to all involved!
-Sirp.
Ok, Shaesha is having trouble with PTW, so she'll have to be skipped and reinserted into the roster later. So, Matt_g is up!
Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- on deck!
Sirp
Renata <--- good work!
Shaehsa (skipped til further notice)
Wetterlind (skipped til further notice)
Now I was going to write some advice, tips, strategic direction etc, buttttt, everyone seems to be doing pretty well, so I thought that I'd just throw Matt_g in the deep end and see how he goes
Good luck!
-Sirp.
Matt_g <--- UP NOW
Stormrider <--- on deck!
Sirp
Renata <--- good work!
Shaehsa (skipped til further notice)
Wetterlind (skipped til further notice)
Now I was going to write some advice, tips, strategic direction etc, buttttt, everyone seems to be doing pretty well, so I thought that I'd just throw Matt_g in the deep end and see how he goes
Good luck!
-Sirp.
A couple of things I forgot earlier:
Renata, in my shadow of your turn, the Aztecs gave me Mysticism *and* the Wheel for Masonry. Did you try and see if you could get that too?
Also, when you finish a technology, you'll often see that the AI has 'just' gotten it. That doesn't mean that you have missed out on selling it to them by one turn though.
The cost of a technology is reduced for each civilization that you have contact with that has it. Say that the Aztecs were researching IW and had 62 out of a needed 80 beakers toward it. Now suppose that you discovering it cuts their needed beakers to 60. They will get it *immediately*, cutting you off from the trading opportunity. It doesn't mean that they 'just' beat you to it.
(Note that there is a way to get around this, but I tend to consider it a 'bug' in Civilization's interface rather than an intended feature. It is listed as a Realms Beyond exploit and don't use it and won't go into it here).
Also, I'd like to give a plug for the latest Realms Beyond Epic. See the information page at http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic25.html
It's on Emperor level, so nice and tough, and posting a detailed report would be a great way to get expert players to give feedback and analysis. If I can get the latest patch working on my machine, I'll definitely be playing it.
-Sirp.
Renata, in my shadow of your turn, the Aztecs gave me Mysticism *and* the Wheel for Masonry. Did you try and see if you could get that too?
Also, when you finish a technology, you'll often see that the AI has 'just' gotten it. That doesn't mean that you have missed out on selling it to them by one turn though.
The cost of a technology is reduced for each civilization that you have contact with that has it. Say that the Aztecs were researching IW and had 62 out of a needed 80 beakers toward it. Now suppose that you discovering it cuts their needed beakers to 60. They will get it *immediately*, cutting you off from the trading opportunity. It doesn't mean that they 'just' beat you to it.
(Note that there is a way to get around this, but I tend to consider it a 'bug' in Civilization's interface rather than an intended feature. It is listed as a Realms Beyond exploit and don't use it and won't go into it here).
Also, I'd like to give a plug for the latest Realms Beyond Epic. See the information page at http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/epic25.html
It's on Emperor level, so nice and tough, and posting a detailed report would be a great way to get expert players to give feedback and analysis. If I can get the latest patch working on my machine, I'll definitely be playing it.
-Sirp.
[DELURKING]
Ahh, well that explains a lot! I was always wondering how the AI managed to get my tech the same turn every time--always seemed a little fishy to me, but now it makes perfect sense. Does it ever work the other way, that the human player gets a tech when another Civ discovers it? Can't remember that ever happening to me. [/DELURKING]
Ahh, well that explains a lot! I was always wondering how the AI managed to get my tech the same turn every time--always seemed a little fishy to me, but now it makes perfect sense. Does it ever work the other way, that the human player gets a tech when another Civ discovers it? Can't remember that ever happening to me. [/DELURKING]
Ok, I've decided that now players may start playing shadows of other people's turn. That is, if you have the time and compulsion, you can pick up the saved game even when it's not your turn, and play 10 turns. But don't post a report here, you can send a report with your saved game to me - email me at david8020000@yahoo.com
It would clog the thread up too much to have shadows posted here, and I really don't want to open another thread for them. I will send you back comments, and where appropriate make comparisons between your shadow and other people's games in this thread. Non-players are also welcome to play shadows and send them to me, and I'll comment. (In the unlikely event that I get more shadow submissions than I can handle, this service will be scaled back )
However, if you play a shadow, do NOT go exploring. Designate units that you would send exploring, and fortify them on the spot. At this stage, it is doubtful that you would use the intelligence provided by discovery for more than 10 turns, so this shouldn't really affect your shadows at all. I don't want the decisions of players being 'polluted' by knowing things they're not meant to go.
Speaker: Glad I could help with my explanation
The way it works the other way round, is your research will go to '1 turn'. Haven't you ever had your research at, say, '4 turns', and then next turn you suddenly find it at '1 turn'? If so then this is what has happened. You don't get the technology instantly because of the order in which human and AI techs are calculated.
-Sirp.
It would clog the thread up too much to have shadows posted here, and I really don't want to open another thread for them. I will send you back comments, and where appropriate make comparisons between your shadow and other people's games in this thread. Non-players are also welcome to play shadows and send them to me, and I'll comment. (In the unlikely event that I get more shadow submissions than I can handle, this service will be scaled back
)However, if you play a shadow, do NOT go exploring. Designate units that you would send exploring, and fortify them on the spot. At this stage, it is doubtful that you would use the intelligence provided by discovery for more than 10 turns, so this shouldn't really affect your shadows at all. I don't want the decisions of players being 'polluted' by knowing things they're not meant to go.
Speaker: Glad I could help with my explanation
The way it works the other way round, is your research will go to '1 turn'. Haven't you ever had your research at, say, '4 turns', and then next turn you suddenly find it at '1 turn'? If so then this is what has happened. You don't get the technology instantly because of the order in which human and AI techs are calculated.
-Sirp.
Didn't get the chance. The warrior just west of Corinth is on his way; the other one in the vicinity just came up from the south (he had to fortify a couple of turns to recover from sacking the barb camp). The warrior that was closest to the hut to begin with is the one that got killed early on in my turn.
Ok. I wanted the settler first, *then* the fill-ins, but can see your point.
My reasoning: I wanted two units instead of one. Both Athens and Sparta could use an extra MP to keep the lux tax down when they're at size five or higher, and two warriors are better at that than one hoplite is. If I was playing this by myself, the *next* time Athens had shield over-run I would've built a barracks. The warriors were/are a pretty big waste of shields right now, though. I missed that at the time.
On Aztecs giving up mysticism plus wheel for masonry - I didn't think to check! I got their offer of wheel plus 40g (all their gold, essentially) and figured that was it (they were asking 65g minimum for mysticism alone). I do think my estimation of the worth of various techs is off a bit from playing lower levels; lower-level civs almost never can actually pay you full price, so you don't even look for it after awhile. So one 'monopoly' first-rung tech can be worth a first-rung *and* a second-rung *known by two civs or more* tech? Good to know.
Thanks for the comments.
And one more of my own, for the next player. In retrospect, I think I should have sent the warrior that's now in Sparta directly toward Thermopylae. With two barbs on the way, the lone warrior there is looking a tad vulnerable, and we do *not* want that barracks sabotaged. Perhaps he could head over there now?
Renata
Wetterlind
Master of the Obvious
Nice playing Renata!
-Now, on a sadder note-
I contacted the store and received the following reply:
[Swedish to English] We've had a database breakdown and your order has been lost. [/Swedish to English]
Alas, I will not receive any copy of PtW in the foreseeable future.
Thus I withdraw my spot in the roster. Im truly sorry for any inconvenience that this might cause.
But know this: I will be watching you all closely. And probably learn a thing or two (or rather, lots and lots of things
).
Semi-lurker mode engaged.
-Now, on a sadder note-
I contacted the store and received the following reply:
[Swedish to English] We've had a database breakdown and your order has been lost. [/Swedish to English]
Alas, I will not receive any copy of PtW in the foreseeable future.
Thus I withdraw my spot in the roster. Im truly sorry for any inconvenience that this might cause.But know this: I will be watching you all closely. And probably learn a thing or two (or rather, lots and lots of things
).Semi-lurker mode engaged.
Nad
Known Troublemaker
Sirp,
are you sure that if you switch research halfway through you lose all the beakers? I have a suspicion this may not be the case, as I'm sure I've invested in research, broke it off (for various reasons) and then when I come back the amount of time required to research is much shorter than researching from start (a big clue, I was once researching fission, switched to computers, researched that and went back to fission, time required to research only 3 turns - must have been because of previous investment)
are you sure that if you switch research halfway through you lose all the beakers? I have a suspicion this may not be the case, as I'm sure I've invested in research, broke it off (for various reasons) and then when I come back the amount of time required to research is much shorter than researching from start (a big clue, I was once researching fission, switched to computers, researched that and went back to fission, time required to research only 3 turns - must have been because of previous investment)
Grille
panel insect
(sorry for interrupting the lesson)
Nad,
You defenitly waste the beakers. Turn amount for researching fission may have dropped for some reasons:
-You simply accumulate more beakers now; this very likely due to research labs that came with computers (and a larger population - citizens turning to scientists)
-other civs have researched fission by now, so it's *cheaper*
edit: sorry, didn't read about 3 turns left - ignore me then
Nad,
You defenitly waste the beakers. Turn amount for researching fission may have dropped for some reasons:
-You simply accumulate more beakers now; this very likely due to research labs that came with computers (and a larger population - citizens turning to scientists)
-other civs have researched fission by now, so it's *cheaper*
edit: sorry, didn't read about 3 turns left - ignore me then
Well uhh...don't we all want settlers first at this stage?
If you needed a settler extra-fast for getting some spot that was in contention and beating an AI to it, then you'd get it fast. But now the next settler is going to have to be delayed, and Athens gets less shields and less commerce as a result.
That's fine - two hoplites in six turns instead of two warriors in four. A hoplite would also be a non-trivial defensive unit, while a warrior wouldn't. It's worth the couple of extra turns, and Athens needs to grow back up anyhow.
You should always check these kind of things - you'd be surprised what you can get sometimes. I didn't think they'd do it either to be honest, but I figured it was worth a try. Thankfully they did do it!
This also makes me think that the Aztecs may *not* have contact with the Babylonians, since that would reduce the price of Masonry substantially. AIs usually get contact when they both go hunting after barbarians and happen to run into each other. In RBE1 we played with no barbarians on a large pangea, and you'd think that all the AIs would have had contact with each other fairly early. Nope! Writing came around and we were selling contacts to civilizations that had borders almost touching!
Witterland, sorry to hear of your misfortune. I hope you'll still enjoy following the game.
This opens up a new roster spot for us. We're still early on in this one, so it'd be a good time to join. Anyone who'd like to join, please let me know, as well as telling us a little about your civilization experience to date.
EDIT: Sultan Bhargash, Jason the King, and CivGeneral have expressed interest in joining in the past; they will get priority over other players in that order. Otherwise it'll be first to post interest.
Nad, you waste the beakers. A simple test will show this. However, I guess it's possible it could work in a more complex way than I've thought of - I'd welcome a saved game that'd show what you're saying
Matt_g: Good luck!
-Sirp.
Open the game and have a look. We need workers bad. I see we have some in progress though. Good deal, God knows we need them.
Military Advisor says we are strong compared to the 3 Civs we know. Good. Between that and our Hoplites, I doubt I will see any tribute demands.
Preturn: Veto the warrior in Athens. Changed to a Hoplite. Warrior in Sparta is fortified. Since I changed Athens to a Hoplite, I am going to send the one between Sparta and Athens to Thermo. He can get there just as fast as the Warrior out of Sparta and will be better defense. I also wont have to raise lux this turn. (Though I will have to next turn.)
I also touch all units to make sure they dont have any movement left. Knew there wouldnt be, but it doesnt hurt to check. Renata did a Diplo check this turn so I dont bother.
IT: Barb by Pharsalos moves to forest 1 tile north of city. Just as advertised, a barb comes out of the fog heading straight for Thermo.
Turn 1-1600 BC: Hoplite between Athens and Sparta is moved to the hill E of Thermo. Worker completes mine on tile thats shared between Sparta and Thermo. Move him to BG NE of Thermo. Our warrior in the south made 25 gold cleaning up barb trash (lost 1 hp). Warrior W of Pharsa heading towards goody hut. Warrior in the N is heading towards that choke point N of Corinth to see whats up. Athens grows to size 5 and lux is raised to 20%. New citizen set to working BG.
I dont attack the barb N of Pharsa. I think hes going to go to Athens. If so, I will attack him there with a warrior instead of attacking him now with a Hoplite on a forest tile. (25% defense bonus)
IT: That barb is heading towards Athens. The other turns and heads west. Guess he didnt want to dance with our Hoplite.
Turn 2-1575 BC: Babs are building the Oracle. Thermo grows to size 3. Citizen has to work an unimproved normal grass. Athens-Hoplite>Barracks. I might change my mind here. Will reevaluate every turn depending on growth etc. Sparta-worker>temple. I want that cattle in range!! A library is a long way off yet. (relatively speaking) Send the new worker to help our slave with the mine. Worker at Thermo start roading the BG. Hoplite on hill moves into Thermo. Athens hoplite stays put. Lux dropped to 10%. Sliders at 0.9.1. Scouts move, including the hurt one in the south. I move him to a mountain and will let him heal there next turn. There is a Jag heading for that goody hut but I will beat him there by 1 turn thanks to the jungle.
Diplo check. Aztecs have 3 cities and thats it. No gold or tech. Rome has 2 cities and 133 gold. No tech. Babs have 3 cities and 25 gold. Still dont have Pottery. Could get all his gold for it but I like him without granarys.
IT: Barb between Athens and Pharsa turns and heads towards Corinth. Another comes out of the fog 2 tiles from our wounded warrior in the south. Barb S of Thermo disappears into the fog.
Turn 3-1550 BC: Worker at Sparta finishes mine, starts road. Worker at Thermo starts roading the BG. Decided to road before mine due to all the barbs and because of what Sirp said earlier about other workers coming to help out. Makes sense to me.
Cool!!! We got Horseback Riding out of that goody hut. [dance] Other scout moves closer to choke.
IT: Barb moves next to Corinth. Theres nothing threatened by him so Ill let him make the next move. The one by Thermo comes back out of the fog. He just cant make up his mind!
Turn 4-1525 BC: Athens grows to size 6. Hmmm. I have 19 shields in the box towards a rax. With the 6th peep working a forest we are getting 11spt. Swap rax to a settler, due next turn and will drop to size 4. Lux raised to 20%. Sliders at 0.8.2. Math due in 2. Dropping to 70% science adds a turn so I leave it. Will adjust next turn. Our worker and the slave finish the mine for Athens. Send them towards Pharsa. They will road the hill between Athens and Pharsa and then start improving tiles around that city. The road will be a big help if we need to send defenders over that way for any reason.
MM Corinth. Only needed 1 food to grow so I swap to a forest tile and shave a turn off the worker build and still grow next turn. Too bad we lose 1 of the 2 shields to waste or the worker would have finished next turn as it grew. Oh well.
Diplo check: Aztecs, have 25 gold now. Must have cleaned up some barb trash. We are up HBR on them but 25 aint enough Monty! Babs have 4 cities now and 27 gold. Still dont have pottery and we are up HBR. Rome, No change except we are up HBR on them. He will give all his 133 gold for HBR. I am going to wait and check back every turn and see if any other techs (or a worker) become available or see if the price starts dropping. This is one area of the game I know Im lousy at, trading. I honestly dont know if I should have taken this or not.
IT: Barb impales himself on Corinth hoplite. The one hanging around Thermo moves onto the mountain next to the city and worker.
Turn 5-1500 BC: Athens, settler>hoplite. Im moving the settler/hoplite pair to the dark blue dot on my dotmap. That is a core city and Im real paranoid about Hammi sticking a city up there. I also wanted to send him towards those spices but ..
Lux dropped to 10% and drop science to 40%. Will get math next turn and make 11 gold this turn.
MM Corinth back to a grass tile to keep up best growth rate. Scouts still busting fog. Sparta grew to size 4. Temple in 8. Boy, I not used to these size maps. Sparta is at 25% waste only 5 tiles from the capitol.
Move warrior out of Thermo to protect our worker. I will not attack that barb as long as he is on that mountain.
Diplo check: Aztecs, no change. Babs, are 1 gold richer. No change other than that. Rome will still give all his gold (133) for HBR. I keep hoping he will get something we dont have, though I am beginning to think thats a pipe dream.
IT: Barb impales himself on Thermo hoplite. Another comes out of the fog in the same area.
Turn 6-1475BC: Math comes in. Dont even have to think about it. Research set to Writing at best rate. Due in 11.
Corinth, worker>barracks. Its low food but could be decent shields if we ever get some pop there. Maybe it should be a granary? Plenty of time to veto this one folks.
Worker finishes mine at Sparta and move to help out at Thermo. Warrior protecting worker at Thermo moves onto the mountain.
Move scouts. The one out on that strip of land walks right into a barb horse. Ill bet hes dead meat. Well see. Southern scout is in a bind with barbs as well. I was going to clean up a camp this turn but the camp grew a second barb this turn so I move him to a mountain for better defense. Of course there was a barb on the adjacent mountain. So now he has 2 on 1 side and 1 on the other.
Diplo check: No change from previous turn, except we are up math on everyone. Caesar would give all his gold for that as well. The problem is Monty and Hammi dont have diddly squat!
IT: That barb horse didnt attack! I dont believe it. Our southern warrior wasnt attacked either, though that camp just spawned a horse heading our way. Aztecs found a city 2 tiles south of Sirps purple dot. I thought about going here with that settler as well. Im glad I didnt. He would have been standing on that mountain 1 tile N this turn. This is getting real crowded, real fast.
Turn 7-1450 BC: Thermo, barracks>hoplite. Athens grew to size 5. Lux to 20%.
MM Delphi to a forest tile. Still grow next turn and shave a turn off the worker build.
Warrior at Thermo kills barb that was irritating the hell out me. Warrior in the south dispersed the camp for 25 gold. Still have 2 barbs loose that way but Montys new city is a much better target for them. I move our warrior that was threatened by the horse in the north back 1 tile and will fortify him on the choke for now.
Diplo check: Rome finally got a third city. Will still give all his gold for HBR. Monty of course has another city but nothing else. Babs also have 4 cities now but nothing else to offer. We are up math and HB on everyone still and up pottery as well on Hammi.
IT: Barb horse attacks our warrior in the south. We win losing a single hp. Barb galley sails into view along western shore! Somebody has mapmaking.
Turn 8-1425 BC: Athens, hoplite>settler. Due in 4 and grows in 2 so will still be at size 4 after the settler. Ah Ha. Caesar just got writing! He established an embassy with us! Thats something I havent seen very often. Put Delphi's citizen back on the grass to get best growth rate. Worker due next turn. All other workers plugging away.
My settler is 1 tile from where I want him.
Diplo check: Hmmm, interesting. Caesar has writing but Monty and Hammi dont. But Caesar only has 58 gold when he had 133 last turn. Yet he doesnt have any communications to trade. Barbs??? A city getting pillaged is the only thing I can figure. Unless it would cost 75 gold to establish the embassy. I dont think it would be that much but I am not sure on this size map. (Assuming this has anything to do with that.) Any clarification on this Sirp? Does map size affect the price of embassies?
OK, I get writing and 20 gold from Caesar for Math. I get all Hammis gold (56) for Math. He is just going to get it from Caesar anyways. Now he has nothing to offer Rome for writing though. I like the idea of keeping him from those cheap librarys as long as possible. Monty only has 25 gold but I give him math for it anyways.
Lux dropped to 10% and science to 90. Research set to Lit in 13.
I also moved the warrior I had on the choke. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
IT: Barbs moving around.
Turn 9-1400 BC: Delphi, worker>temple. My reasoning is it could really use that whale and fish.
Plenty of time to veto this as well.
Workers complete road on hill between Athens and Pharsa. Move to horse tile and will start irrigating next turn.
Warrior I had on the choke attacks a barb horse, he wins and promotes. Our other warrior up north attacks a barb horse, he wins as well but no promotion. Warrior in south heals up. Settler is where I want him.
MM Athens. Move 1 pop to a forest since it only needs 3 food to grow.
IT: nada
Turn 10-1375 BC: Pharsalos, worker>temple. Feel free to change this.
Move new worker from Pharsa NW, with the intention of roading and mining that grass.
Athens grew to size 6. Lux to 20%.
Knossos founded. Set to a temple.
Diplo check: Babs, I just noticed that Hammi does not know the Romans or Aztecs. He has 4 cities, 2 gold and we are up pottery, writing and HBR.
Rome, has 3 cities, 38 gold and we are up HBR.
Monty has 4 cities, 0 gold and we are up HBR. Monty and Caesar have a ROP.
Just remembered to found embassies!
Embassy with Monty for 32 gold. Teno is size 2 with the shield box full on a settler but the city wont grow for 7 more turns.
Has 1 reg. spear for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.
Embassy with Hammi costs 34 gold. Babylon is size 3 and building the Oracle. Pulling 7spt and will be done in 32. 2 reg. spears for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.
Notes to StormRider: Feel free to veto the temple in Knossos. I would have set it to a worker but that would be done in 10 but it wont grow for 20. It needs workers like yesterday!! I have the citizen set on a coast tile because all tiles in range are 1 food only and working the hill we lose the shield to waste, so I went for the gold.
I also left 1 pop working a forest in Athens in order to get the settler next turn. I figure its worth it to get him 1 turn earlier at the cost of 1 food. It will still grow in 3 if MM properly, so we dont really lose the food anyways.
Spartas temple is due in 2, though this could be changed to a granary. I leave all this in your capable hands Stormrider! I think we should let the temple complete but Im no expert. If I was I wouldnt be in this game.
Edit: Now that I think on it a little, I believe we should change Sparta's temple to a granary. We can build a library shortly to get that cattle in range.
Good Luck Stormrider.
Military Advisor says we are strong compared to the 3 Civs we know. Good. Between that and our Hoplites, I doubt I will see any tribute demands.
Preturn: Veto the warrior in Athens. Changed to a Hoplite. Warrior in Sparta is fortified. Since I changed Athens to a Hoplite, I am going to send the one between Sparta and Athens to Thermo. He can get there just as fast as the Warrior out of Sparta and will be better defense. I also wont have to raise lux this turn. (Though I will have to next turn.)
I also touch all units to make sure they dont have any movement left. Knew there wouldnt be, but it doesnt hurt to check. Renata did a Diplo check this turn so I dont bother.
IT: Barb by Pharsalos moves to forest 1 tile north of city. Just as advertised, a barb comes out of the fog heading straight for Thermo.
Turn 1-1600 BC: Hoplite between Athens and Sparta is moved to the hill E of Thermo. Worker completes mine on tile thats shared between Sparta and Thermo. Move him to BG NE of Thermo. Our warrior in the south made 25 gold cleaning up barb trash (lost 1 hp). Warrior W of Pharsa heading towards goody hut. Warrior in the N is heading towards that choke point N of Corinth to see whats up. Athens grows to size 5 and lux is raised to 20%. New citizen set to working BG.
I dont attack the barb N of Pharsa. I think hes going to go to Athens. If so, I will attack him there with a warrior instead of attacking him now with a Hoplite on a forest tile. (25% defense bonus)
IT: That barb is heading towards Athens. The other turns and heads west. Guess he didnt want to dance with our Hoplite.
Turn 2-1575 BC: Babs are building the Oracle. Thermo grows to size 3. Citizen has to work an unimproved normal grass. Athens-Hoplite>Barracks. I might change my mind here. Will reevaluate every turn depending on growth etc. Sparta-worker>temple. I want that cattle in range!! A library is a long way off yet. (relatively speaking) Send the new worker to help our slave with the mine. Worker at Thermo start roading the BG. Hoplite on hill moves into Thermo. Athens hoplite stays put. Lux dropped to 10%. Sliders at 0.9.1. Scouts move, including the hurt one in the south. I move him to a mountain and will let him heal there next turn. There is a Jag heading for that goody hut but I will beat him there by 1 turn thanks to the jungle.
Diplo check. Aztecs have 3 cities and thats it. No gold or tech. Rome has 2 cities and 133 gold. No tech. Babs have 3 cities and 25 gold. Still dont have Pottery. Could get all his gold for it but I like him without granarys.
IT: Barb between Athens and Pharsa turns and heads towards Corinth. Another comes out of the fog 2 tiles from our wounded warrior in the south. Barb S of Thermo disappears into the fog.
Turn 3-1550 BC: Worker at Sparta finishes mine, starts road. Worker at Thermo starts roading the BG. Decided to road before mine due to all the barbs and because of what Sirp said earlier about other workers coming to help out. Makes sense to me.
Cool!!! We got Horseback Riding out of that goody hut. [dance] Other scout moves closer to choke.
IT: Barb moves next to Corinth. Theres nothing threatened by him so Ill let him make the next move. The one by Thermo comes back out of the fog. He just cant make up his mind!
Turn 4-1525 BC: Athens grows to size 6. Hmmm. I have 19 shields in the box towards a rax. With the 6th peep working a forest we are getting 11spt. Swap rax to a settler, due next turn and will drop to size 4. Lux raised to 20%. Sliders at 0.8.2. Math due in 2. Dropping to 70% science adds a turn so I leave it. Will adjust next turn. Our worker and the slave finish the mine for Athens. Send them towards Pharsa. They will road the hill between Athens and Pharsa and then start improving tiles around that city. The road will be a big help if we need to send defenders over that way for any reason.
MM Corinth. Only needed 1 food to grow so I swap to a forest tile and shave a turn off the worker build and still grow next turn. Too bad we lose 1 of the 2 shields to waste or the worker would have finished next turn as it grew. Oh well.
Diplo check: Aztecs, have 25 gold now. Must have cleaned up some barb trash. We are up HBR on them but 25 aint enough Monty! Babs have 4 cities now and 27 gold. Still dont have pottery and we are up HBR. Rome, No change except we are up HBR on them. He will give all his 133 gold for HBR. I am going to wait and check back every turn and see if any other techs (or a worker) become available or see if the price starts dropping. This is one area of the game I know Im lousy at, trading. I honestly dont know if I should have taken this or not.
IT: Barb impales himself on Corinth hoplite. The one hanging around Thermo moves onto the mountain next to the city and worker.
Turn 5-1500 BC: Athens, settler>hoplite. Im moving the settler/hoplite pair to the dark blue dot on my dotmap. That is a core city and Im real paranoid about Hammi sticking a city up there. I also wanted to send him towards those spices but ..
Lux dropped to 10% and drop science to 40%. Will get math next turn and make 11 gold this turn.
MM Corinth back to a grass tile to keep up best growth rate. Scouts still busting fog. Sparta grew to size 4. Temple in 8. Boy, I not used to these size maps. Sparta is at 25% waste only 5 tiles from the capitol.
Move warrior out of Thermo to protect our worker. I will not attack that barb as long as he is on that mountain.
Diplo check: Aztecs, no change. Babs, are 1 gold richer. No change other than that. Rome will still give all his gold (133) for HBR. I keep hoping he will get something we dont have, though I am beginning to think thats a pipe dream.
IT: Barb impales himself on Thermo hoplite. Another comes out of the fog in the same area.
Turn 6-1475BC: Math comes in. Dont even have to think about it. Research set to Writing at best rate. Due in 11.
Corinth, worker>barracks. Its low food but could be decent shields if we ever get some pop there. Maybe it should be a granary? Plenty of time to veto this one folks.
Worker finishes mine at Sparta and move to help out at Thermo. Warrior protecting worker at Thermo moves onto the mountain.
Move scouts. The one out on that strip of land walks right into a barb horse. Ill bet hes dead meat. Well see. Southern scout is in a bind with barbs as well. I was going to clean up a camp this turn but the camp grew a second barb this turn so I move him to a mountain for better defense. Of course there was a barb on the adjacent mountain. So now he has 2 on 1 side and 1 on the other.
Diplo check: No change from previous turn, except we are up math on everyone. Caesar would give all his gold for that as well. The problem is Monty and Hammi dont have diddly squat!
IT: That barb horse didnt attack! I dont believe it. Our southern warrior wasnt attacked either, though that camp just spawned a horse heading our way. Aztecs found a city 2 tiles south of Sirps purple dot. I thought about going here with that settler as well. Im glad I didnt. He would have been standing on that mountain 1 tile N this turn. This is getting real crowded, real fast.
Turn 7-1450 BC: Thermo, barracks>hoplite. Athens grew to size 5. Lux to 20%.
MM Delphi to a forest tile. Still grow next turn and shave a turn off the worker build.
Warrior at Thermo kills barb that was irritating the hell out me. Warrior in the south dispersed the camp for 25 gold. Still have 2 barbs loose that way but Montys new city is a much better target for them. I move our warrior that was threatened by the horse in the north back 1 tile and will fortify him on the choke for now.
Diplo check: Rome finally got a third city. Will still give all his gold for HBR. Monty of course has another city but nothing else. Babs also have 4 cities now but nothing else to offer. We are up math and HB on everyone still and up pottery as well on Hammi.
IT: Barb horse attacks our warrior in the south. We win losing a single hp. Barb galley sails into view along western shore! Somebody has mapmaking.
Turn 8-1425 BC: Athens, hoplite>settler. Due in 4 and grows in 2 so will still be at size 4 after the settler. Ah Ha. Caesar just got writing! He established an embassy with us! Thats something I havent seen very often. Put Delphi's citizen back on the grass to get best growth rate. Worker due next turn. All other workers plugging away.
My settler is 1 tile from where I want him.
Diplo check: Hmmm, interesting. Caesar has writing but Monty and Hammi dont. But Caesar only has 58 gold when he had 133 last turn. Yet he doesnt have any communications to trade. Barbs??? A city getting pillaged is the only thing I can figure. Unless it would cost 75 gold to establish the embassy. I dont think it would be that much but I am not sure on this size map. (Assuming this has anything to do with that.) Any clarification on this Sirp? Does map size affect the price of embassies?
OK, I get writing and 20 gold from Caesar for Math. I get all Hammis gold (56) for Math. He is just going to get it from Caesar anyways. Now he has nothing to offer Rome for writing though. I like the idea of keeping him from those cheap librarys as long as possible. Monty only has 25 gold but I give him math for it anyways.
Lux dropped to 10% and science to 90. Research set to Lit in 13.
I also moved the warrior I had on the choke. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
IT: Barbs moving around.
Turn 9-1400 BC: Delphi, worker>temple. My reasoning is it could really use that whale and fish.
Plenty of time to veto this as well.
Workers complete road on hill between Athens and Pharsa. Move to horse tile and will start irrigating next turn.
Warrior I had on the choke attacks a barb horse, he wins and promotes. Our other warrior up north attacks a barb horse, he wins as well but no promotion. Warrior in south heals up. Settler is where I want him.
MM Athens. Move 1 pop to a forest since it only needs 3 food to grow.
IT: nada
Turn 10-1375 BC: Pharsalos, worker>temple. Feel free to change this.
Move new worker from Pharsa NW, with the intention of roading and mining that grass.
Athens grew to size 6. Lux to 20%.
Knossos founded. Set to a temple.
Diplo check: Babs, I just noticed that Hammi does not know the Romans or Aztecs. He has 4 cities, 2 gold and we are up pottery, writing and HBR.
Rome, has 3 cities, 38 gold and we are up HBR.
Monty has 4 cities, 0 gold and we are up HBR. Monty and Caesar have a ROP.
Just remembered to found embassies!
Embassy with Monty for 32 gold. Teno is size 2 with the shield box full on a settler but the city wont grow for 7 more turns.
Has 1 reg. spear for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.
Embassy with Hammi costs 34 gold. Babylon is size 3 and building the Oracle. Pulling 7spt and will be done in 32.
2 reg. spears for garrison. No iron or horses hooked up.Notes to StormRider: Feel free to veto the temple in Knossos. I would have set it to a worker but that would be done in 10 but it wont grow for 20. It needs workers like yesterday!! I have the citizen set on a coast tile because all tiles in range are 1 food only and working the hill we lose the shield to waste, so I went for the gold.
I also left 1 pop working a forest in Athens in order to get the settler next turn. I figure its worth it to get him 1 turn earlier at the cost of 1 food. It will still grow in 3 if MM properly, so we dont really lose the food anyways.
Spartas temple is due in 2, though this could be changed to a granary. I leave all this in your capable hands Stormrider! I think we should let the temple complete but Im no expert. If I was I wouldnt be in this game.
Edit: Now that I think on it a little, I believe we should change Sparta's temple to a granary. We can build a library shortly to get that cattle in range.
Good Luck Stormrider.
ok, I'm posting this from work, so I don't have access to the game at the moment....if necessary I'll edit the comments later once I've looked at the game.
Yes we do. Good spot.
I'd have possibly gotten one more worker out of Sparta before making the switch. I'd have also gone for a granary instead of a temple. I notice that you changed your mind about this in your addendum though.
A temple will let us get the cattle which will get us a food surplus of 6/turn instead of the current 4/turn, which will let us grow in 4 turns instead of the current 5. A granary will let us grow in 3 turns. Once we're size 7+, a temple would let us grow in 7 turns, vs a granary in 5 turns.
So, as far as growth goes, a granary is a better option. Of course, a temple does have side benefits, like more culture earlier, and happiness. I'd still say the granary is better, especially considering the upcoming cheaper libraries.
Interesting, I got HBR out of the hut too in my shadow of Renata's turn. Definitely a good thing, free techs are nothing to be sneezed at!
That seems pretty characteristic of barbarians in PTW. It's always going to happen in systems where AI is done in a stateless way.
Hmm...it's not like growth in civilization depends on any kind of randomness. I can understand that you might be able to think a little clearer a little down the track, but really, it helps if you can predict where things are going ahead of time. In fact, like in chess, I think one of the things great civilization players can do is 'see' where a city is going some turns into the future.
We're out-expanding them while they're happily sitting around building the Oracle. Not a wise move by Hammurabi; I'd much rather have our expansion advantage than some silly wonder...
I think you did well here; this is a marginal decision, but we know we don't want our rivals galloping around on horses right at the moment.
Ok, there's nothing wrong with this move as such, but I am going to make a general comment. It seems to me that I told Renata she shouldn't have built the settler so soon, dropping Athens to size 4. Then you don't do that; instead you build the settler as soon as you can without dropping Athens to size 3. There's no reason to try to get settlers so quick, unless there is a specific site you want them to go to that you think might be gone soon. By getting settlers so quickly, you are making our capital less powerful, and making it take longer for future settlers.
My intention was to have Athens at 6/4, with settlers not generally being produced until it was almost size 7 (never ever let it get to size 7 though), this way it only stays at size 4 for a moment, before going back up to size 5. So it's size 5 and 6 almost all the time. This way it's a powerful city able to get lots of commerce and lots of shields. This is why I didn't think it was so bad to save a turn and get our slave worker to mine the unenriched grassland: at size 5 or higher we'd have to work on both the enriched and unenriched grassland anyhow, and so we wouldn't be losing anything most of the time.
We want to build settlers at a sustainable rate. To be precise, we want to get Athens to almost size 7, and then build a settler once every 6 turns.
Oh, I wonder what was said to make you think to do this
Yes, barbarians pillaging a city is all I can really think of as well. As well as the cost of the embassy of course. But that alone wouldn't do it. I believe embassy costs are related to the distance between capitals, and are proportional to map size. The size of the capital might have something to do with it, but I'm not sure about that.
EDIT: Other possibilities include him being extorted by one of the other civilizations, or him buying communications with the Babylonians from the Aztecs. (Maybe?) Maybe he established embassies with the other civilizations too; not just us? (Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?) Did you notice if the gold of the other civilizations changed this turn?
Good trades to get writing. It turns out that we could still debate which would have been the best course - writing or mathematics
Going for mathematics means we have that when we wouldn't otherwise, but so do our rivals. If we had gone for Writing, we'd have got it ahead of Rome, and then be onto Literature sooner.
Good choice to go for Literature; we do want those cheap Libraries.
The city of Tiaxcala really does make things complicated. I'm thinking we would like to deny Rome a source of iron, if possible. That would mean either founding a city in an aggressive position, or founding it not on fresh water.
But, we might be better to concentrate on our own expansion. That Aztec city is just smack bang in the middle of so much nice looking land, it makes our expansion awkard. Certainly, expansion to the furs down there would be a *very* aggressive move. I think we can safely say that the Aztecs will get that.
There's still plenty of land to the west. We would love to be able to claim the entire lake, with 2 more cities around its edges, also the river to the south-west of Thermopylae looks attractive.
Good exploring of that area past Knossos, Matt. We'll have to see what's up there - but that land probably wouldn't be a priority at this stage, since we're going to be in a bit of a race with the Aztecs.
StormRider: You're up and good luck!
-Sirp.
Yes we do. Good spot.
I'd have possibly gotten one more worker out of Sparta before making the switch. I'd have also gone for a granary instead of a temple. I notice that you changed your mind about this in your addendum though.
A temple will let us get the cattle which will get us a food surplus of 6/turn instead of the current 4/turn, which will let us grow in 4 turns instead of the current 5. A granary will let us grow in 3 turns. Once we're size 7+, a temple would let us grow in 7 turns, vs a granary in 5 turns.
So, as far as growth goes, a granary is a better option. Of course, a temple does have side benefits, like more culture earlier, and happiness. I'd still say the granary is better, especially considering the upcoming cheaper libraries.
Interesting, I got HBR out of the hut too in my shadow of Renata's turn. Definitely a good thing, free techs are nothing to be sneezed at!
That seems pretty characteristic of barbarians in PTW. It's always going to happen in systems where AI is done in a stateless way.
Hmm...it's not like growth in civilization depends on any kind of randomness. I can understand that you might be able to think a little clearer a little down the track, but really, it helps if you can predict where things are going ahead of time. In fact, like in chess, I think one of the things great civilization players can do is 'see' where a city is going some turns into the future.
We're out-expanding them while they're happily sitting around building the Oracle. Not a wise move by Hammurabi; I'd much rather have our expansion advantage than some silly wonder...
I think you did well here; this is a marginal decision, but we know we don't want our rivals galloping around on horses right at the moment.
Ok, there's nothing wrong with this move as such, but I am going to make a general comment. It seems to me that I told Renata she shouldn't have built the settler so soon, dropping Athens to size 4. Then you don't do that; instead you build the settler as soon as you can without dropping Athens to size 3. There's no reason to try to get settlers so quick, unless there is a specific site you want them to go to that you think might be gone soon. By getting settlers so quickly, you are making our capital less powerful, and making it take longer for future settlers.
My intention was to have Athens at 6/4, with settlers not generally being produced until it was almost size 7 (never ever let it get to size 7 though), this way it only stays at size 4 for a moment, before going back up to size 5. So it's size 5 and 6 almost all the time. This way it's a powerful city able to get lots of commerce and lots of shields. This is why I didn't think it was so bad to save a turn and get our slave worker to mine the unenriched grassland: at size 5 or higher we'd have to work on both the enriched and unenriched grassland anyhow, and so we wouldn't be losing anything most of the time.
We want to build settlers at a sustainable rate. To be precise, we want to get Athens to almost size 7, and then build a settler once every 6 turns.
Oh, I wonder what was said to make you think to do this
Yes, barbarians pillaging a city is all I can really think of as well. As well as the cost of the embassy of course. But that alone wouldn't do it. I believe embassy costs are related to the distance between capitals, and are proportional to map size. The size of the capital might have something to do with it, but I'm not sure about that.
EDIT: Other possibilities include him being extorted by one of the other civilizations, or him buying communications with the Babylonians from the Aztecs. (Maybe?) Maybe he established embassies with the other civilizations too; not just us? (Do AI civilizations even establish embassies with each other?) Did you notice if the gold of the other civilizations changed this turn?
Good trades to get writing. It turns out that we could still debate which would have been the best course - writing or mathematics
Going for mathematics means we have that when we wouldn't otherwise, but so do our rivals. If we had gone for Writing, we'd have got it ahead of Rome, and then be onto Literature sooner.
Good choice to go for Literature; we do want those cheap Libraries.
The city of Tiaxcala really does make things complicated. I'm thinking we would like to deny Rome a source of iron, if possible. That would mean either founding a city in an aggressive position, or founding it not on fresh water.
But, we might be better to concentrate on our own expansion. That Aztec city is just smack bang in the middle of so much nice looking land, it makes our expansion awkard. Certainly, expansion to the furs down there would be a *very* aggressive move. I think we can safely say that the Aztecs will get that.
There's still plenty of land to the west. We would love to be able to claim the entire lake, with 2 more cities around its edges, also the river to the south-west of Thermopylae looks attractive.
Good exploring of that area past Knossos, Matt. We'll have to see what's up there - but that land probably wouldn't be a priority at this stage, since we're going to be in a bit of a race with the Aztecs.
StormRider: You're up and good luck!
-Sirp.
Time for another quiz! This one is entitled Ancient Wonders.
(1) Name the Great Wonders of the ancient world, and list their effects (bonus: list the cities they were built in), including when they become obsolete
(2) Rank the ancient Wonders from most useful to least useful, for the game settings we are playing with. Also compare with other game settings. Explain why you have ranked them so.
-Sirp.
(1) Name the Great Wonders of the ancient world, and list their effects (bonus: list the cities they were built in), including when they become obsolete
(2) Rank the ancient Wonders from most useful to least useful, for the game settings we are playing with. Also compare with other game settings. Explain why you have ranked them so.
-Sirp.
OOh quizzes. What better way to waste time at work. 
Ancient ages wonders:
1. Colossus (Rhodes). Available with Bronze Working, obsolete with Flight, I think. Adds a multiplier bonus to all commerce generated in that city. I'm not sure how much of a bonus, or whether or not it applies to raw or only uncorrupted commerce.
2. Pyramids (Giza). Available with Masonry, does not become obsolete. Puts a free granary in every one of your cities on the same continent.
3. Great Lighthouse (Alexandria). Available with Map-Making. Gives all of your ships one extra movement, and allows safe travel over (and trade over) sea squares prior to astronomy. Becomes obsolete with Magnetism.
4. Great Library (also Alexandria, I think). Available with Literature, obsolete with Education. Gives the owner every tech known by 2 other (known) civs.
5. Great Wall (China). Gives the city-size defense bonus/ city walls defense bonus (50%?) to defenders in all of your towns (not sure if they need to be on the same land-mass or not). Also doubles defense against barbarians. Available with Masonry? No idea when or if it becomes obsolete.
6. Hanging Gardens (Babylon). Available with Monarchy, obsolete with Steam Power. Gives one content citizen in all of your cities, three in city where it was built.
7. Oracle (somewhere in Greece - name's on the tip of my tongue). Available with Mysticism?, obsolete with Theology. Doubles the effect of temples (which means, I assume, they give 2 content citizens instead of 1).
Rating them all is a little difficult for some of them, since their usefulness depends on factors other than the map settings, so I'll give a rough approximation.
Best: Pyramids. The effect on growth is dramatic - wonderful to have on most continents or pangaea maps, almost useless on an archipelago or anywhere else you have a small continent to start on.
Second-tier (in no particular order): Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Library. I really haven't prioritized the GL in a long time - it's nice to have on Regent level if you want to go to cash economy for a while, but getting it still tends to slow down the tech rate. On monarch it's probably more useful in terms of just keeping up. Colossus is a nice wonder to have if you have an early coastal city with rivers or other bonus trade tiles - it's cheap, as wonders go, has a nice effect, and lasts a good long time. Hanging Gardens I'd rate a notch lower unless you're short luxuries, in which case it can be a godsend, as I just found out in a recent game. Having to detour to monarchy to get it can be a pain, though.
Worst (in no particular order, as they're all either all-but-useless or all-but-useless for these map settings): Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Great Wall. The lighthouse is very occasionally useful on a continents map - if you're going for conquest/domination, for example, your own continent is a pushover, and there's a sea passage to the other continent that's exactly four tiles long. In all other cases it's not worth it -- you can almost always find the other continent(s) by suiciding a galley or three, and often they are reachable safely by astronomy. If this were an archipelago map, I'd probably switch Lighthouse and Pyramids, though. The Oracle's effect is very nice for religious civs, especially with a lux shortage, but its duration is just too too short. And the Great Wall --- not much to say, but if you really need it, you've probably already lost. I'm not sure how many razed towns and lost defenders you'd have to replace to make the GW cost-effective by comparison, but it's more than a couple.
Renata
Ancient ages wonders:
1. Colossus (Rhodes). Available with Bronze Working, obsolete with Flight, I think. Adds a multiplier bonus to all commerce generated in that city. I'm not sure how much of a bonus, or whether or not it applies to raw or only uncorrupted commerce.
2. Pyramids (Giza). Available with Masonry, does not become obsolete. Puts a free granary in every one of your cities on the same continent.
3. Great Lighthouse (Alexandria). Available with Map-Making. Gives all of your ships one extra movement, and allows safe travel over (and trade over) sea squares prior to astronomy. Becomes obsolete with Magnetism.
4. Great Library (also Alexandria, I think). Available with Literature, obsolete with Education. Gives the owner every tech known by 2 other (known) civs.
5. Great Wall (China). Gives the city-size defense bonus/ city walls defense bonus (50%?) to defenders in all of your towns (not sure if they need to be on the same land-mass or not). Also doubles defense against barbarians. Available with Masonry? No idea when or if it becomes obsolete.
6. Hanging Gardens (Babylon). Available with Monarchy, obsolete with Steam Power. Gives one content citizen in all of your cities, three in city where it was built.
7. Oracle (somewhere in Greece - name's on the tip of my tongue). Available with Mysticism?, obsolete with Theology. Doubles the effect of temples (which means, I assume, they give 2 content citizens instead of 1).
Rating them all is a little difficult for some of them, since their usefulness depends on factors other than the map settings, so I'll give a rough approximation.
Best: Pyramids. The effect on growth is dramatic - wonderful to have on most continents or pangaea maps, almost useless on an archipelago or anywhere else you have a small continent to start on.
Second-tier (in no particular order): Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Library. I really haven't prioritized the GL in a long time - it's nice to have on Regent level if you want to go to cash economy for a while, but getting it still tends to slow down the tech rate. On monarch it's probably more useful in terms of just keeping up. Colossus is a nice wonder to have if you have an early coastal city with rivers or other bonus trade tiles - it's cheap, as wonders go, has a nice effect, and lasts a good long time. Hanging Gardens I'd rate a notch lower unless you're short luxuries, in which case it can be a godsend, as I just found out in a recent game. Having to detour to monarchy to get it can be a pain, though.
Worst (in no particular order, as they're all either all-but-useless or all-but-useless for these map settings): Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Great Wall. The lighthouse is very occasionally useful on a continents map - if you're going for conquest/domination, for example, your own continent is a pushover, and there's a sea passage to the other continent that's exactly four tiles long. In all other cases it's not worth it -- you can almost always find the other continent(s) by suiciding a galley or three, and often they are reachable safely by astronomy. If this were an archipelago map, I'd probably switch Lighthouse and Pyramids, though. The Oracle's effect is very nice for religious civs, especially with a lux shortage, but its duration is just too too short. And the Great Wall --- not much to say, but if you really need it, you've probably already lost. I'm not sure how many razed towns and lost defenders you'd have to replace to make the GW cost-effective by comparison, but it's more than a couple.
Renata
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