Sitting Bull - Early Help

[Carnage04]

I like trying to play with the New Leaders, and sitting Bull seems like a decent leader. Philosophical is cool, and protective plus Totem Pole can lead to some really really solid defensive units...but....

If you do not get Iron fast, how on Earth are you supposed to get it? The Dog Soldier is nice for extra proactive defense power (Attacking other axes and swords) and the idea of not having to link up copper is nice but.....they are absolutely useless in trying to take territory. In the latest debacle, I had Mansa Musa as a very close neighbor (Oh yay, Skirmishers). So here is my economy ruining stack of 10 CR1 Dogs running on his capital. Three Skirmishers, mostly unupgraded. When I saw the Odds shake out, I knew I was finished but followed through with it anyway. End result....0 Dogs, 1 Skirmisher at 4 Strength, 2 Skirmishers in the 2.4 strength area. In the game prior, I tried to mix up Archers (City Garrison Promotion plus either Combat 1, Cover, Drill 1 or City Garrison + Drill 3.) With Dogs and tried to take some Archer cities from some Civ. I was equally unimpressed with my ability to do anything.

To be fair, I never tried to hook up Iron. The point is, on Prince or higher, how in the heck do you manage to win with Sitting Bull? Waiting to see if you get any Iron and if not, gunning for Cats before you can even consider any type of war seems like it would be very difficult.

 

[DaveMcW]

Drill IV Longbows

 

[axident]

Don't rush with dogs. You can still pillage with them with virtual impunity as long as you pillage their horses ASAP. Send em way back in the tech race and when you get better units like swords or even cats, you can easily conquer them.

Or I suppose you can slingshot for Feudalism like the above poster is saying and build totem poles and get outrageously promoted longbows for offense.

 

[UncleJJ]

Would highly promoted crossbows not be better than longbows on offense? Or at least build a mixed force of longbows and xbows. Both get a free first strike but the longbow bonusses of +25% city and +25% hills are both defensive bonusses while the xbow's +50% versus melee can be useful defensively and against any melee defenders on attack.

Drill 4 is obviously one good choice for highly promoted archery units. But how about using the 10 xp for some Guerilla 3 units that still get the Drill1 and CG1 from Protective and the free first strike for being a longbow or crossbow. The 50% withdraw chance is an interesting safeguard against really tough targets like other protective longbows where the first strikes largely cancel on both sides anyway.

Attacking against other archery units it might be better to take Drill3 and Cover with the 10 xp instead of Drill4, or even some mixture of Combat, Drill and Cover; it will depend on how many first strikes the defender has. There are lots of options to make the most of attacking with Sitting Bull's archery units, although I have yet to actually put any of this theory to the test, so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

 

[Scaphism]

Sitting Bull is bad for the early axe rush strategy, particularly against enemies that have a good early UU.

Egypt, Persia, Mali, Babylon - forget it.

Your cities, however, are virtually impregnable. If I see Sitting Bull near me I just look the other way. Find a different target. Not gonna happen without terrible losses on my side.

You start with good food techs (Agriculture and Fishing) which means all of your cities should have decent potential to grow. Grab as much land as you can handle while figuring out the best way to leverage your philosophical trait.

If you're not going for the Feudalism gambit, my gut says make the most of your starting food techs.

Grab Mining+Bronzeworking and your workers will have lots to occupy themselves with, then Pottery->Writing. That opens up granaries and libraries.

You have access to Fish, Farms, Granaries, and Libraries - everything you need to start a specialist economy.

The other path suggests Oracle->Feudalism or Oracle-CoL (Caste System). Oracle gives Great Prophet points and requies priesthood, which allows temples and priest specialists.

Sitting Bull sets you up to look for high food starts to get your specialists rolling in, and gives you two great resourceless defenders to protect you during the early-game set up.

 

[slobberinbear]

Sitting Bull is bad for the early axe rush strategy, particularly against enemies that have a good early UU.

Egypt, Persia, Mali, Babylon - forget it.

Your cities, however, are virtually impregnable. If I see Sitting Bull near me I just look the other way. Find a different target. Not gonna happen without terrible losses on my side.

You start with good food techs (Agriculture and Fishing) which means all of your cities should have decent potential to grow. Grab as much land as you can handle while figuring out the best way to leverage your philosophical trait.

If you're not going for the Feudalism gambit, my gut says make the most of your starting food techs.

Grab Mining+Bronzeworking and your workers will have lots to occupy themselves with, then Pottery->Writing. That opens up granaries and libraries.

You have access to Fish, Farms, Granaries, and Libraries - everything you need to start a specialist economy.

The other path suggests Oracle->Feudalism or Oracle-CoL (Caste System). Oracle gives Great Prophet points and requies priesthood, which allows temples and priest specialists.

Sitting Bull sets you up to look for high food starts to get your specialists rolling in, and gives you two great resourceless defenders to protect you during the early-game set up.

I agree completely. Sitting Bull seems to work best with a expand & build mindset. You will be very difficult to displace from your land, and if you are attacked by an aggressive AI you can make him pay militarily in the open field and by pillaging.

Place your cities so as to block your opponents, then backfill with cities as you can afford them.

I would delay any offense until, at a minimum, you have either swords + catapults or longbows.

This "expand & defend" strategy allows you to focus on infrastructure and research worker, wonder, and religious techs. Your military needs are met for a long, long time by the basic ancient era techs.

If the OP's situation was that HE was choked by an opponent and forced into an offensive war, then you probably should beeline iron.

 

[Scaphism]

Good points slobberinbear.

There is a big difference between a close neighbor and being choked, and there is an equally large gap between having Mansa Musa as a neighbor and having Alexander as a neighbor.

Was expansion in a different direction not possible? If it is, you have a peaceful neighbor whose primary goal is trading as many techs as possible with you. You can build up in relative safety and if you decide to be aggressive later you can capture his best cities then vassalize him.

Dog Soldiers have about 1 chance to rush - it's essentially the same as a Quecha rush. It works best if you have 1-2 (coastal) seafood tiles. Build workboats/barracks while researching bronzeworking. Switch to slavery and whip 3-5 dog soliders. If you are lucky you can catch the AI just after they have sent out their settler+garrison troops and they'll have a relatively poorly defended capital with little cultural defense.

It depends on having a neighbor close enough that you can scout the opportunity very early and your troops can get over there quickly. Otherwise forget it - a 4str Dog Soldier is the same as a chariot for attacking archers in a city, except you have less manuverability, reinforcements come slower, no withdrawal chance, and no flanking 2 for immunity to first strike. You probably need between 3-4 attackers for every defender.

Sitting Bull breaks the paradigm of the early axe rush in most cases. You can sit back and pursue your own goal. If you go after Oracle you don't have to go for Feudalism - you can do the normal CoL grab and research Monarchy yourself. Then you have Caste System and Monarchy for Hereditary rule, as well as libraries and food techs. One of the strengths of specialists is that they don't rely on lots of good tiles with improvements - you only need a few good food tiles, so being choked shouldn't be a huge issue.

If you're set on early aggression there are many better leaders for it.

 

[madscientist]

Well I haven't gotten arround to playing Sitting Bull yet but my plan would be to rush build the Great Wall, build Dog Soldiers and well promoted archers (and hopefulyl a few Spearmen) and just try to egg some AI into attacking me. Aim for a great spy, and hopefully by the middle ages I can have highly promoted dog warriors, great espionage, and a few great generals.

Difference between Mansa Musa and Alexander?? Yeah, Al can be baited into attacking by making a few dozen arrogant demands.

Again I haven't played him yet, but planning so when the randomizer genie spits out his name.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Would highly promoted crossbows not be better than longbows on offense? Or at least build a mixed force of longbows and xbows. Both get a free first strike but the longbow bonusses of +25% city and +25% hills are both defensive bonusses while the xbow's +50% versus melee can be useful defensively and against any melee defenders on attack.

Drill 4 is obviously one good choice for highly promoted archery units. But how about using the 10 xp for some Guerilla 3 units that still get the Drill1 and CG1 from Protective and the free first strike for being a longbow or crossbow. The 50% withdraw chance is an interesting safeguard against really tough targets like other protective longbows where the first strikes largely cancel on both sides anyway.

Attacking against other archery units it might be better to take Drill3 and Cover with the 10 xp instead of Drill4, or even some mixture of Combat, Drill and Cover; it will depend on how many first strikes the defender has. There are lots of options to make the most of attacking with Sitting Bull's archery units, although I have yet to actually put any of this theory to the test, so take my advice with a pinch of salt.

A machinery slingshot is an option, particularly if you get the pyramids. That would get you early crossbows. But you are dependent on iron and probably stone to pull that off early enough for crossbows to be dominant. I'd do that with China, but I like the feudalism slingshot better.

It lets your longbows start with more XP which is good. Longbows are cheaper to build and don't require any resources so it is less risky.

I definitely agree with mixing up the promotions. I always go to drill 2 since that guarantees an extra free strike, but I have the following combos that I like (assuming 10xp):

CG1 + Drill 2 + Shock + Cover - great for city attacking first strike units.
CG1 + Drill 4 - followup attackers to kill wounded defenders.
CG3 + Drill 2 - mega defenders - sit in newly captured cities. One of these is an entire garrison by itself.
CG1 + Drill 1 + Combat 2 + Formation - I built a couple of these for stack defense vs horse archers. Combat rather than drill because HA are immune to first strikes.