Slavery

[julko]

@ Inverted

I assume that change from revolting slaves(str3) to revolting peasants(str6) comes with adoption of serfdom, for it you need feudalism, which is quite late tech, so it cannot be problem to have troops with enough power to clear out your revolts.

 

[BLubmuz]

Just to let you know, i never revolt to slavery or serfdom.
Especially in TR i can't see benefits, or not benefits good enough to lost some key resource (not only strategic, also luxuries), even for few turns.
And my inner cites are often "defended" by 1 warrior.

In addiction to the anarchy needed to revolt... no thanks, i revolt to CS ASAP, and remain there until the end of the game.

When one of my workers is improving a border tile i protect him, to avoid surprises of revolting people from other civs, wich seem ignoring the GW.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

@ Inverted

I assume that change from revolting slaves(str3) to revolting peasants(str6) comes with adoption of serfdom, for it you need feudalism, which is quite late tech, so it cannot be problem to have troops with enough power to clear out your revolts.

Not quite, strength increase is linked to era transitions. So it might be a good idea to advance your eras with a military tech when under slavery/serfdom.

 

[Anaztazioch]

Slavary/serfdom civs were quite good in military. If you want to have slavary with no stational army - thats what you get.

 

[Inverted]

Thats what you get no matter what, since revolting slaves/peasant move in the turn they appear, so you have no chance to prevent them to pillage your improvements.

 

[Vertico]

and this is realistic!

 

[Anaztazioch]

You never know where and when will a revolt take place.

 

[Inverted]

I was only reflecting to this post:

Slavary/serfdom civs were quite good in military. If you want to have slavary with no stational army - thats what you get.

Theres no military that could save your country from being continuously pillaged, and thats why I never use those civics.

 

[Anaztazioch]

Play as Japan. Do an early conquest of Ishikari and go for slavary. With forest everywhere, slaves will attach cities or just wonder arround. Easy xp and slaves are workers for free that cop down forsts (dont bother iwth improvements exept going for resources, and just man them with defensive units).

I often play games where i dont build workers, only units and buildings. In such games slavary comes to rescue in improving terrain.

 

[Inverted]

Capturing others slave hordes, or the barbarian workers are even better. As those yield you workers.

 

[Vertico]

One idea.
Forced workers were nothing but modern slaves and regimes that used them didn't use slavery in the classic meaning. So... to be more accurate to history, slaves should be available also with totalitarianism civic.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

One idea.
Forced workers were nothing but modern slaves and regimes that used them didn't use slavery in the classic meaning. So... to be more accurate to history, slaves should be available also with totalitarianism civic.

Hm... It is interesting to think which one of the "labor" group civics better represents, for example, Soviet Union. Well might be that "slavery" is the best answer, with slave-holder being the state. Still, what you're suggesting sounds reasonable.

 

[Anaztazioch]

forced labor =/= slaves
They were still civilians (by Totalitar standards), its just that they were paid little for work. Still paid, not only "upkeept".

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

forced labor =/= slaves
They were still civilians (by Totalitar standards), its just that they were paid little for work. Still paid, not only "upkeept".

Not everywhere - Stalinist USSR used lots of real slave labor, where people were forced to work and provided only with food. I think Hitler's Germany had such stuff too.

 

[Anaztazioch]

Are you talking about civilian slaves or prisioners or occupied inhabitants ?

I know Jewls were forced to work for mere food (actually ability to buy food) during Hitlers ocupation in Poland.
Communist movement in Poland was that you recived cards to get things not money. So you could not choose what good you want to aquire, the goiverment decided what you need and he provided you cards to obtain those things.

But in those 2 points only Jewls were forced to work. Normal inhabitants could do nothing, but their "social unempleyed paychechs" were near fly to a dog size and unavailable in many cities.

 

[Cruel]

I think Slavery is good. It does need to modify.

 

[Vertico]

Ok I will tell that in another words.
Playing as an aggressive civ in modern times, I should be able to use forced labourers, not using slavery civic. I hope everyone agree that slavery is quite obsolete in modern times, I would rather chose nationalism
Soviet Union or Nazi Germany didn't get back to slavery to use forced labourers, didn't created slave markets, didn't export them to another countries and use them to fight on stadiums. In the other hand forced people were not paid and fed only to not starve (I have a grandpa, who was forced to work in German plane factory, so I know what I'm talking about). So de facto forced labourers act exactly as slaves (slaves was fed too) but in different social and economy situation.
To solve this issue, I think in a best way, is to make slaves available also in totalitarianism civic.

 

[Inverted]

But the problem is that totalitarian countries usually used part of their own or conquered population for forced labor but mostly not POWs. (except the SU)

So maybe it would be better to add a "Forced Labor Camp" building for totalitarianism, much like slave market.

Now, this gave me two ideas, slightly off-topic, sorry:
(1) In industrial/modern era (or having certain top civics) you could be able to capture POWs from battles, much like slave capturing just not so common (5-10% chance). A POW unit turns to slave if you have slavery, otherwise you could use them to build improvements under totalitarianism (maybe other civics too) or choose to execute/release them. This gives a +/-1 diplomatic relation capped at +/-3 but you could only release POWs of civs you have peace with. Could be a nice way to somehow improve your terribly ruined relations after a war.
Problem is that Im not sure its possible to track the origin, like "Prisoners of War (English)".

(2) In later eras you could get partisan uprisings near cities you captured. If city has less that 50% your pop. Could work the same way as slave/peasant uprisings, except that if partisans capture the city it is returned to its previous owner (preferably to the civ that has highest pop% there[*]) including barbarians. Partisan units spawned could be something (city size)/3*(foreign pop%)

* Please dont use the BtS way of deciding whos the "rightful" owner, it even wants to give my own founded cities with 100% my pop. to my neighbors who are not even close - and never were - to that city.

 

[Xenofungus]

Maybe instead of costing less unkeep, slaves should be more productive than workers (as while low quality, they are many more people) while keeping their chance of dying.

I have thought of a couple of approaches to slavery, don't know how implementable they are, though:

Slaves as GP: slavery enables the build of the slave market "wonder",that spawns slaves every now and then (would be good if it depended on you being at war with other nations, fighting barbs, etc). That slave unit is sent to a city where whether it can be tooled to work on the fields like a worker, join the city (i.e. in the form of a little slave market/house with income modifiers) or rush a building.

Slaves as resources: captured cities, or cities with several culture types can build a slave market that provides slaves, which could be used to build buildings like slave markets and colloseums, traded with other nations, etc.

Slaves as specialists: slaves are fixed specialists that only cost 1 food and provide hammers. Many of these rise the chance of a slave revolt. Several turns of slave revolts and they'll destroy something in the city or get weapons and destroy what they find in their way to freedom.

Slaves as a mixture of all the previous implementations: slave resources that enable the slave market wonder that spawns slaves GPs that join cities as slave specialists.


Some other ramdom ideas:

Revolting slaves probably aren't military units and have no way to supply themselves, so they should probably be unable to attack (effectively) a city, nor (most likely) be able to survive after destroying an improvement. Then add slave leaders: Slaves with military training that are stronger and can supply themselves. They can gather slaves (somehow) and turn them into warriors for your nasty Spartacus style uprising.

Would be nice if (legal) ways to free slaves (like Rome's freedmen) could make the slaves a bit happier and keep them from revolting too much. Slaves should revolt because they are strong enough and are unhappy, not just because they exist.

With a couple of changes, most of this could be used in forced labour and detention/forced labor camps

 

[shakal]

Some of my ideas about slavery:
- Generate slaves from pillaging cottages
- After some "Gladiators" technology, slave unit should be able to create "Gladiator school" building in city with colosseum
- "Gladiator school" should:

• generate happiness
• add experience to units created in city
• lower possibility of slave revolt (unrulling slave? sell him for gladiator fight),
• but when revolt actually happens, instead of "revolting slaves", there will be stronger "revolting gladiators"
• enable drafting of "gladiators", unit slightly stronger than default draftee

- Slave unit should be able to create "jannisary" unit, unit with promotion of advantage against units of nation slave cames from ("turkenizee worse than turk")