Slaves, Hostages and Prisoners of War

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I was about to put it on the SVN. I have tested that it does not fail. I can't figure out how to test that it succeeds in putting HN on units if the attacker is HN

 

[Thunderbrd]

Setup a mercenary group attacking a bunch of warriors of an opponent civ. Surely one will capture sooner or later.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Setup a mercenary group attacking a bunch of warriors of an opponent civ.

I have asked a number of times how to do that. No one has enlightened me.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have asked a number of times how to do that. No one has enlightened me.

Start a duel single player game and then go into World Builder and add in the units on the map as desired. Exit world builder and attack. You should probably have them attack a city so that you can test the civilian captives as well. (Might have to adjust the bandit footpad to not have bNoCapture to do this properly)

If this system is successful, any captive you get out of this will be automatically assigned a promo that gives them HN. You won't be able to SEE that your own unit has HN but you should be fine if the units have the promo.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@DH: Have you also added doHNCapture to the naval and siege capture mechanics?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I did to War Prizes mod but that is also onUnitKilled.

The Capture stuff is done in the dll. There is no link I can use. Unless onUnitLost works but I don't know if that has an attacker unit defined or not.

edit I have looked at the HN for cities when they are razed. Unfortunately all I have is the owner of the city at the time it is razed. If HN capture a city as barbarian then raze it all I can do is make barbarian units.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The 0 str captures (workers and other 0 str units with a defined capture tag) is done in the dll. Does siege somehow work through that? There's a random chance of capturing siege weapons and its not automatic. Additionally these aren't str 0 units. I thought, therefore, that they were handled in python. I suppose they could be somewhere in the dll though. I'd have to check.

War Prizes is the naval stuff right?

As for the cities... I suppose it makes sense that the captives initially start off as barbs trying to get away.


EDIT: Confirmed that the ONLY usage of the captive tag in the dll applies only to units incapable of defending themselves. Therefore, siege capturing must be somewhere within the python files.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

War Prizes = Naval Stuff

I can find nothing in the Python regarding the capture of siege units except in the case of a partisan capturing a siege unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Ok... I looked a bit deeper into the code. I believe I see where it's taking place. Not sure I'm happy with it being a 100% chance of capture (but only if it's the last unit attacked.) I'm thinking perhaps we should use the compiled capture chance even for this scenario.

But I'm not adjusting it yet. Apparently though, the HN mechanism is setup by default here since I added it to all places where capturing takes place.

Thanks for ruling python out at least. Sorry I didn't see how it worked earlier... I thought it only applied to 0 str units there.

 

[Faustmouse]

Opps wrong thread

 

[LumenAngel]

Some remarks

• Capture - Civilians often build Worldview - Slavery when I automate them. Can you add a way to make all worldview building not buildable with Automation?
• When I use the "Turn On Citizen Automation", game nearly always put all Specialist as Slave. Can we have an Emphasis button about limiting Disease and/or Crime? (just like the one limiting growth). With this, a slave specialist will be add only if crime/disease is negative ; and Doctor and investigator specialists will sometimes be used
• Can we have some more Slave coumpound? Like a Slave coumpound (Depollution), Slave coumpound (Education) or Slave Coumpound (Order). And some late game building about slavery, like Megatower - Slave Level (replace all Slave coumpound, act like all slave coumpound together with more bonus)
• Can Settled Slave (Tutor) give some Education?
• Why Slaves give so much crime and disease? Far more than other slaves specialists
• Slave Commerce/Rroduction/Food give +10 in their speciality. They should give +8 (base -2, bonus +10)
• Can we have an Enclosure - Neanderthal? Myth - neanderthal. Story - neanderthal?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Capture - Civilians often build Worldview - Slavery when I automate them. Can you add a way to make all worldview building not buildable with Automation?

Not with ease. You'd need a whole new exception tag for buildings to tell the AI, even though it's the best thing you could possibly do, don't do it. The problem is that if you do that, then the AI players won't. Automation almost always is just telling the game to play as the AI would for whatever you've automated. So that deepens the effort and given the plans and emergencies we constantly face in developing this mod, it would be such low priority that I don't think I could say it's likely it would ever get included.

When I use the "Turn On Citizen Automation", game nearly always put all Specialist as Slave. Can we have an Emphasis button about limiting Disease and/or Crime? (just like the one limiting growth). With this, a slave specialist will be add only if crime/disease is negative ; and Doctor and investigator specialists will sometimes be used

We were working on something like this but got side tracked and it would probably be a while before we could get back to it due to all the bugs to solve and plans to complete first.

Can we have some more Slave coumpound? Like a Slave coumpound (Depollution), Slave coumpound (Education) or Slave Coumpound (Order). And some late game building about slavery, like Megatower - Slave Level (replace all Slave coumpound, act like all slave coumpound together with more bonus)

Up to DH.

Can Settled Slave (Tutor) give some Education?

I think it could be programmed to. And it would probably be a good idea.

Why Slaves give so much crime and disease? Far more than other slaves specialists

The specialists that represent population being assigned to work as that type of specialist are given a little extra crime and disease because of their downtrodden profession. The ones that are 'free' specialists and were once captives that were dedicated to slavery in the city are also making up for the fact that they add a proxy amount more population to the city which free specialists generally don't usually equate to. Usually those free specialists, like those that were once great people, are more of a 'city tradition' inspired by the original great person and aren't really added population that isn't counted towards the pop # total of the city.

Slave Commerce/Rroduction/Food give +10 in their speciality. They should give +8 (base -2, bonus +10)

An excellent mathematical point. @DH! Take note! I believe he's absolutely correct.

Can we have an Enclosure - Neanderthal? Myth - neanderthal. Story - neanderthal?

Why? They aren't animals... they can become slaves as it is and does that not sorta fill in the role?

 

[LumenAngel]

The specialists that represent population being assigned to work as that type of specialist are given a little extra crime and disease because of their downtrodden profession. The ones that are 'free' specialists and were once captives that were dedicated to slavery in the city are also making up for the fact that they add a proxy amount more population to the city which free specialists generally don't usually equate to. Usually those free specialists, like those that were once great people, are more of a 'city tradition' inspired by the original great person and aren't really added population that isn't counted towards the pop # total of the city.
[/quot]
The problem is that specialists are not only free specialists. In my new game (ancien era), AI use my population as slaves rather than use them on a plot. And in a big city or a desert city, it's a normal thing to do. These population cost a lot of crime and disease.

Why? They aren't animals... they can become slaves as it is and does that not sorta fill in the role?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo
Even without slavery, there was human zoo.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As far as I know the AI still does not see the crime and disease of specialists as a downside. In fact I am not sure it takes any of the extensions made here and in other mods to specialists into account. That means changes to health and happiness as well as the properties.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The specialists that represent population being assigned to work as that type of specialist are given a little extra crime and disease because of their downtrodden profession. The ones that are 'free' specialists and were once captives that were dedicated to slavery in the city are also making up for the fact that they add a proxy amount more population to the city which free specialists generally don't usually equate to. Usually those free specialists, like those that were once great people, are more of a 'city tradition' inspired by the original great person and aren't really added population that isn't counted towards the pop # total of the city.

The problem is that specialists are not only free specialists. In my new game (ancien era), AI use my population as slaves rather than use them on a plot. And in a big city or a desert city, it's a normal thing to do. These population cost a lot of crime and disease.

They do because slave lifestyles add more crime and disease. It's by design as a penalty to slavery to help balance it out. This actually does work imo because different players have different opinions on this - my wife hates the penalties and doesn't care about the benefits as much and I love the benefits and figure I can work with the penalties. And I've seen others argue in similar ways here since slavery was introduced. This means personality guides the decision and that tends to happen when the subconscious evaluates it to be somewhat equal but leans towards the perceived preference. aka you're SUPPOSED to not want it as much as you want it.

As far as I know the AI still does not see the crime and disease of specialists as a downside. In fact I am not sure it takes any of the extensions made here and in other mods to specialists into account. That means changes to health and happiness as well as the properties.

This is probably true. Add that note to the bug thread if you will so it becomes part of the items to address list.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am adding in the downside stuff for Slavery on the free building Worldview Slavery active.

Increasing unhappiness at various techs in all cities.

Reduced production and commerce in all cities to reflect the fact that you are using slaves rather than the new machinery so you should not get the full benefit from these techs.

Some remarks

• Can we have some more Slave coumpound? Like a Slave coumpound (Depollution), Slave coumpound (Education) or Slave Coumpound (Order). And some late game building about slavery, like Megatower - Slave Level (replace all Slave coumpound, act like all slave coumpound together with more bonus)
• Can Settled Slave (Tutor) give some Education?
• Slave Commerce/Rroduction/Food give +10 in their speciality. They should give +8 (base -2, bonus +10)

Yes I can add more compounds for Pollution and Crime control. I probably wont do one for Education. I like the Megatower idea.

I have given education to the Slave (Tutor) and adjusted the specialist yields from 10 to 8.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sounds good!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thinking on it further perhaps you should not be able to build some of those buildings if you are running slavery. Much easier to implement.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thinking on it further perhaps you should not be able to build some of those buildings if you are running slavery. Much easier to implement.

Might work. What buildings exactly?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This is the initial list of buildings I am considering making unavailable if you have slavery active. Some have historical evidence for their inclusion (*) others are chosen because of their similar affect of removing work from slaves.

TECH_MACHINERY

• Donkey Mill (*)
  
• Lumber Mill (*)
  
• Noria
• Oxen Mill (*)
  
• Treadmill Crane (and upgrades)
  
• Watermill (*)
  
• Windmill (*)

TECH_AGRICULTURAL_TOOLS

• Hand Water Pump

TECH_MACHINE_TOOLS

• Parts Maker

TECH_ASSEMBLY_LINE

• Factory

Some of these are at the beginning of major chains of buildings so those chains will also be unavailable.