Slinger v Warrior

[AriochIV]

I'm pretty sure that cannon and other siege units are NOT support units. The known Support units such as Builders or Settlers or Archaeologists have triangular icons.

Cannon has a circular icon, same as other (unfortified) combat units.

The Catapult and Artillery unit appear to have Warrior and Infantry figures in the unit, but I think those are just part of the unit.

 

[qwerty25]

I'm pretty sure that cannon and other siege units are NOT support units. The known Support units such as Builders or Settlers or Archaeologists have triangular icons.

I thought builders and settlers were civilian units on their own layer.

The first was that there were a lot of units that were just additional equipment for your units. It might be a battering ram or a siege tower or an anti-aircraft gun or an anti-tank gun. In Civ 5 those were all special units that took up a whole dedicated tile. In Civ 6, we call them support units. They can stack with other military units without you having to worry about managing them on a tile by themselves.

Edit: article from polygon. I don't think we've seen an example of a support unit yet?



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[stealth_nsk]

I'm pretty sure that cannon and other siege units are NOT support units. The known Support units such as Builders or Settlers or Archaeologists have triangular icons.

Settlers and Archaeologists are not support units, they are civilian units, as far as I know. Support units are combat enhancers like battering ram, anti-tank, etc. Although I also think ranged siege units aren't support ones.

I actually disagree, in that it's not unreasonable to assume that known and persistent series imbalances are likely to continue to persist. As outsiders, we have far from an ideal framework to build upon when talking balance. But we can infer a substantial amount.

Do you really believe developers are unaware of these issues?

I have a feeling slingers will only be relevant for a very, very short time in the beginning. Also, barbs have "scouts" now, I'm assuming it's an actual scout unit not a scouting warrior unit, in which case slinger may be used to chase down these barbarian scouts.

It's not good idea to chase scouts with a 2-movement unit without bonuses. The main advantage of slingers is their ability to deliver damage without getting damage back, so they could:
- Help city defense.
- Help finishing injured units.
- Help softening units before finishing.
Also, with the new movement rules they could be a real pain. If slinger sits on rough terrain, warrior will be unable to come and attack, warrior will have to come to the nearby tile and eat the first shot.

 

[AriochIV]

Settlers and Archaeologists are not support units, they are civilian units, as far as I know. Support units are combat enhancers like battering ram, anti-tank, etc. Although I also think ranged siege units aren't support ones.

Either way, ranged units are not support units.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Of course, we do not know what promotions might be available... for example, some sort of withdrawl promotion would not be unreasonable. Hit and run tactics, especially in rough areas, were not unusual with slinger/javelineer/skirmisher type units.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Imagine a scout being promoted by a ruin into a slinger, for example. That would be kind of nice... Or various other terrain or movement promotions that could affect the effectiveness of the unit.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Imagine a scout being promoted by a ruin into a slinger, for example. That would be kind of nice... Or various other terrain or movement promotions that could affect the effectiveness of the unit.

It looks like scout has its own mid-game version.

 

[Schuesseled]

Is a catapult? I know battering rams are, but I hadn't heard anything about catapults.

We've seen catapults attach with warriors and artillery attached to infantry etc in the screen shots.

 

[Haig]

They said that units have unique promotions now.

Maybe slinger gets the retreat promotion incan slingers had in civ 5.

 

[AriochIV]

We've seen catapults attach with warriors and artillery attached to infantry etc in the screen shots.

I don't think we have.

Take a look at the E3 video with the Artillery units that have Infantry figures in the unit. There's a moment when you can see the unit icons.

There's no sign of any Infantry icons, or any indication that this is anything other than a normal Artillery unit (though it does have 3 promotions). I don't know what the icons for a combined unit would be, but you would expect there to be something to indicate it's a combined unit. Note also that the shape of the Artillery icon is the same round teardrop shape that all of the land combat units have.

I'm pretty sure that the Infantry models in the Artillery unit are just a normal part of the unit. They might be placeholders for more cannon crew figures, or they might represent the unit's ability to defend itself when attacked by another unit (especially a melee one).

 

[Ryika]

I definitely like the Idea of the Slinger. Put one on a Hill and there you go - guaranteed first hit against any Melee Unit that isn't Cavalry. That would allow them to be very specialized, relatively high damage defense units without all the benefits that traditional Archer Units get.

Of course it's questionable how much of a role they'll really play given how much of an early-game unit they are, but I like the idea of having an archer-type unit that cannot really be used offensively early on. The the rest is just tweaking of numbers.

 

[Haig]

I'm pretty sure that the Infantry models in the Artillery unit are just a normal part of the unit. They might be placeholders for more cannon crew figures, or they might represent the unit's ability to defend itself when attacked by another unit (especially a melee one).

I agree, the renaissance cannon has this "proper" crew on them, I bet catapult and artillery have just placeholder warriors and infantry on them.

 

[MIS]

I definitely like the Idea of the Slinger. Put one on a Hill and there you go - guaranteed first hit against any Melee Unit that isn't Cavalry. That would allow them to be very specialized, relatively high damage defense units without all the benefits that traditional Archer Units get.

Of course it's questionable how much of a role they'll really play given how much of an early-game unit they are, but I like the idea of having an archer-type unit that cannot really be used offensively early on. The the rest is just tweaking of numbers.

This is the math I get (and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand):

Assume Warrior is on plains (no terrain bonus). Slinger (15) fires shot at warrior (20*1=20). Ratio = 1/1.33. Damage = 35/1.33 = 26 (approx).

Warrior (20, with 74 health) attacks Slinger on hill (5*1.25= 6.25). Combat Ratio is around 3:1 after the health modifier, so very close to one-shotting.

Wouldn't it be better to put a warrior on a hill, even for defense?

 

[stealth_nsk]

This is the math I get (and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand):

Assume Warrior is on plains (no terrain bonus). Slinger (15) fires shot at warrior (20*1=20). Ratio = 1/1.33. Damage = 35/1.33 = 26 (approx).

Warrior (20, with 74 health) attacks Slinger on hill (5*1.25= 6.25). Combat Ratio is around 3:1 after the health modifier, so very close to one-shotting.

Wouldn't it be better to put a warrior on a hill, even for defense?

1. You're using Civ5 formula, which not necessary apply here.

2. You're using Civ5 defense modifiers. At one of screenshots we've seen Hills having defense modifier 3. Although we don't know how it applies, it's surely not 1.25.

 

[Ryika]

This is the math I get (and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand):

Assume Warrior is on plains (no terrain bonus). Slinger (15) fires shot at warrior (20*1=20). Ratio = 1/1.33. Damage = 35/1.33 = 26 (approx).

Warrior (20, with 74 health) attacks Slinger on hill (5*1.25= 6.25). Combat Ratio is around 3:1 after the health modifier, so very close to one-shotting.

Wouldn't it be better to put a warrior on a hill, even for defense?

I didn't take the numbers into account, they're obviously not final - or the combat calculations simply work differently in Civ VI.

I was simply talking about the general design.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

The % modifiers for promotions seem to have been replaced flat bonuses +1 combat strength against X or Y)

However, I thinkt he whole "Slinger vs Warrior" is kinda moot. Slinger seems to be the starting unit for Archery. And will most probably be replaced by Archers when you research, let's assume, Archery.

Given that in Civ 4 and Civ 5 that's been the the first or second tech to research (as in avability), I think it won't be long before Civs use Archers to begin with.

 

[MIS]

The % modifiers for promotions seem to have been replaced flat bonuses +1 combat strength against X or Y)

However, I thinkt he whole "Slinger vs Warrior" is kinda moot. Slinger seems to be the starting unit for Archery. And will most probably be replaced by Archers when you research, let's assume, Archery.

Given that in Civ 4 and Civ 5 that's been the the first or second tech to research (as in avability), I think it won't be long before Civs use Archers to begin with.

I understand. I used Slinger and Warrior as an example because they come at the same point in the tech tree, and we know a lot about them. I also understand that the combat system appears to be different for Civ6. But since ranged v melee was an issue in Civ5, I thought it was interesting to look at.

 

[Schuesseled]

I don't think we have.

Take a look at the E3 video with the Artillery units that have Infantry figures in the unit. There's a moment when you can see the unit icons.

There's no sign of any Infantry icons, or any indication that this is anything other than a normal Artillery unit (though it does have 3 promotions). I don't know what the icons for a combined unit would be, but you would expect there to be something to indicate it's a combined unit. Note also that the shape of the Artillery icon is the same round teardrop shape that all of the land combat units have.

I'm pretty sure that the Infantry models in the Artillery unit are just a normal part of the unit. They might be placeholders for more cannon crew figures, or they might represent the unit's ability to defend itself when attacked by another unit (especially a melee one).

Entirely possible as well that the unit icons they use for combined units is not present and uses a placeholder. We will have to wait and see.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'd assume they can hide or run away or take one hit being killed or something. There wouldn't be a unit that cannot attack any other unit without being killed.

I like the one hex range for them assuming the above.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Slingers may be useful v. Unwalled cities (maybe barb encampments would work like that)

They would do just as much damage as a warrior and not take any.

They could also focus fire/pair w warriors to eliminate the enemy before the enemy could attack