Small idea: Transferring the economy without regulating it

Terxpahseyton

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I think there should be a seal for good employment conditions just as there is for organic. To partake will be entirely voluntary. The trick would be to find a balance between conditions which are far out there and conditions which most companies can claim and hence are not very meaningful.
People need to feel shamed for choosing the lesser option, otherwise nothing significant will happen.
To illustrate: I learned somewhere that clothing from Bangladesh would only have to be a tiny percentage more expensive to double the wages of the workers there. Assuming they got the money. But as it is, no one cares. But if given an option which was easy to identify and to choose and which was a matter of public exposure, that may quickly change.
For American companies there could be benefit standards or wage standards or even share of profit standards etcetera.
Of course business would hate hate hate that. But it would not be an actual impairment of efficiency or the ability to compete. Just transparency.
 
The trick you point out would be a trick. The bigger trick would be establishing the organization to monitor compliance. Just like in the example you use, in which there is really no defining what someone means when they stamp "organic" on a food package other than "I want more money for this."
 
The trick you point out would be a trick. The bigger trick would be establishing the organization to monitor compliance. Just like in the example you use, in which there is really no defining what someone means when they stamp "organic" on a food package other than "I want more money for this."
This.
 
o_O I don't know about the US but in the EU we already got a legal binding meaning what organic means.
It is easy. Set out rules. Spot-check compliance with the threat of fines. Just as any set of regulations. Just that it would be voluntary weather you want to commit to them. No actually, it would be a lot more easy with what I propose than with organic because employees could call the agency for violation of the seal and would have good reason to do so.

Really, you two look like you want it to be a bad idea.

And a lot of things are fragile acts of balances. But apparently that means you can not do it at all? Sheesh... yes you do want it to be a bad idea.
 
o_O I don't know about the US but in the EU we already got a legal binding meaning what organic means.
It is easy. Set out rules. Spot-check compliance with the threat of fines. Just as any set of regulations. Just that it would be voluntary weather you want to commit to them. No actually, it would be a lot more easy with what I propose than with organic because employees could call the agency for violation of the seal and would have good reason to do so.

Really, you two look like you want it to be a bad idea.

And a lot of things are fragile acts of balances. But apparently that means you can not do it at all? Sheesh... yes you do want it to be a bad idea.

Nahhh...I want it to be a great idea...but I also want to be realistic about the implementation.

Back at organics..."it is easy, set out rules and spot check compliance..." Holes in that that immediately show up as big enough to allow a truckload of vegetables to pass through...

1) I mark my packaging "organic." Is my product sitting on the shelf putting me in some sort of randomized rotation for spot checks? It doesn't here. The only reason I am subject to spot checks at the community garden where I volunteer is because we submitted the paperwork to the Department of Agriculture in the first place. Just putting people who complied in the first place in the rotation makes the spot checks such a 'once in a blue moon' event as to be of no concern (to my knowledge we have not been checked since our initial compliance check five years ago). If the Department of Agriculture was trying to work backwards from point of sale checks looking to see if claims of organic correspond to submitted paperwork they wouldn't have time to spot check at all.

2) The spot check is too small a spot to be effective anyway. 99% of the time if you come out to our community garden the only thing you will see is plants growing. You won't see whether when those plants were planted they were planted in manure or toxic soup. You will see that there aren't a bunch of nibbling rodents, but there's no way to tell if that's because planting an onion perimeter really works or because we have spread thirty feet of radioactive material outside the fence. You can look in our small shed, and probably guess that our volunteers bring their own tools. Whether any of the volunteers have a bug sprayer full of DDT in their trunk you have no way of knowing. Whether we have enough volunteers to keep the weeds at bay, or have defoliated the walkways with agent orange you have no way of knowing.

And moving on to the idea that "employees could call..." Call who? Are you proposing a large enough organization to field those calls and investigate all claims? If so I think saying "without regulating it" might be a tad overly optimistic as a description.

Again...I like the idea. I really do. I just think the implementation would be a lot more problematic than you seem to be thinking.
 
Unless your community garden is populated with a helluva lot of anal retentive perfectionists with a ton of free time, I'd be able to tell you if the pest control was done by hoe or spray. And I'm pretty crappy at that. A field man would be much better. Not really the point you're making, I know, but just fyi. ;)
 
@tim
I am sure that in the organic industry not everything is kosher. But the point is, it makes a meaningful difference. If you buy organic vegetables, at least in Germany, you will have strong decreases in pesticide contamination. This has been proven more than one time.

And yes of course the agency watching over the seal will need some significant resources. But what differentiates my scenario from general regulations is that the free market is not disrupted, at all. So it lacks a key ingredient of what regulations are all about. The market is only provided with a new tool. But yes, to provide this tool will cost money. On the upside, employees may be able to pay more taxes, because they earn more. It may even finance itself, that way.
But even if it would not, the potential I see would be most likely worth it, IMO.

You say you want it to succeed. Well do you want it to succeed perfectly? I don't. I mean it would be nice, so I guess I want it, somewhat. But most of all I want it to justify its costs. To make things better. That is the question, IMO. If we get into the details, I think both of us will be overburdened.
 
I still wouldn't buy organic Terx, unless there's an awful lot of uniquely national enlightenment that I don't buy on the face of it, large organics operations tend to substitute less-than-perfect conventional controls for also deeply problematic "certifiable" controls. Unless you watched somebody hoe the patch, I wouldn't believe them if it comes with nice packaging from a store. I'd be more inclined to believe a stinky guy or girl at the farmer's market.
 
You speak of controls. I spoke of independent controls having clear results. Somewhere we seem to have a miscommunication here, but I don't know where.
I don't think we have "farmers markets" over here. We got shops specialized on organic products and we got some niche offers to buy directly from farms (only know about it because my brother does it - not many do).
 
Ah, I mean pest controls. Herbicides, fungicides, insecticides, onions, ladybugs, hoes, tilling, crop rotation, etc.
 
Well I refereed to pesticides controls of stuff straight from the super market. I am aware of the claim that organic farming can increase the risk of pests (= natural contamination). Do not know much beyond that, so can't comment any further. For now, I just trust organic to not be pest-contaminated while being happy to consume less pesticides. I guess my hope is that pests are such an obviously serious concern that it will be taken care of, sufficiently.
You think otherwise?
 
I don't trust organics companies of scale to not to spray copper sulfate even as they eschew use of glyphosate.
 
I'd be more inclined to believe a stinky guy or girl at the farmer's market.

HEY! I shower before we go to the farmer's market! I can't help it if loading and unloading the truck is sweaty work!
 
With every drop you wash away your credibility!
 
I think there should be a seal for good employment conditions just as there is for organic. To partake will be entirely voluntary. The trick would be to find a balance between conditions which are far out there and conditions which most companies can claim and hence are not very meaningful.
People need to feel shamed for choosing the lesser option, otherwise nothing significant will happen.
To illustrate: I learned somewhere that clothing from Bangladesh would only have to be a tiny percentage more expensive to double the wages of the workers there. Assuming they got the money. But as it is, no one cares. But if given an option which was easy to identify and to choose and which was a matter of public exposure, that may quickly change.

As with many the products, the history of textiles at Bangladesh is one of every player down to the poor workers trying to squeeze prices. We can say that a factory owner there who set up the factory without any concern for the safety of workers and caused their deaths is a scumbag (was it two years ago that we saw that in the news for a brief time?), but he operates in a "competitive market" where if he didn't do this he might go bankrupt, the big retailers would buy from others. The problem is structural. Can the end consumers make a change here? A little when there is a scandal, and a few weeks later it's all forgotten. That has been the history of these things so far. I don't believe some label would change it.

Textiles (and this applies also to agricultural goods) have had the retail operations concentrated under control of a few companies. These big retailers will squeeze prices in order not just to increase their margins, but also (and perhaps this is a bigger driver) to defend their market share against their few competitors. It is an oligopoly but one still with competition. The problem is that the retailers are so much bigger than the producers. Producers get squeezed, so they in turn squeeze their workers. You mentioned Bangladesh, but what about the massive use of cheap immigrant labour in european agriculture? If europeans don't even bother to enforce their labour laws in their own territory (and they don't, I see it), if they too squeeze workers and even import cheaper workers, under pressure from the retailers, and with the silent complicity of the state, what hope do you have of controlling working conditions in far away countries?

The problem is structural. A decision was made by many european governments, some three decades ago, to push for concentration of retail business. The technical goal was control of inflation, and that was achieved. But one other consequence of this move was a very strong downward pressure on costs in those sectors where producers were many and the new retailers very few: the power balance was shifted against producers. Unfortunately these industries with many producers happen to be those more labour intensive. The capital intensive ones were already concentrated, think the conglomerates such as Univeler or Johnson, but also got more concentrated over these years.

So this was the price paid for a deliberate, engineered, government policy to keep retail prices of ordinary consumer goods low. It's not just "the market", it was s specific set of market rules pushed by governments starting in the 70s. An environment was created where the big retailers had a competitive advantage. They were allowed to report their profits in "tax heavens", this having bigger dividends and attracting capital for expansion. They were allowed to buy worldwide unencumbered by tariffs (thus pitting local produces against producers from across the world, something that big retailers are better at because there are economies of scale in long-distance logistics. They were, in several countries, exempt from laws that had been put in place to regulate commerce for decades (operating hours, use of overtime from workers, etc). There were political options. Those options remain in force, and their effects won't be changed by some tweaks such as labels for consumers. To change the effects you need to change the structure of these businesses. You'd have to swing negotiating power back to the producers.
 
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