[SNEAK PEEK] GraveMod (a NEW ModPack for Warlords on the way!)

[Grave]

That about says it Grave...

I am lurking on this thread, and looking forward to your work.

Keep on keeping on...

Regards,

John

Thanks, man! I'm glad to see this project wasn't forgotten about!

Have you seen the lates Hirohito leaderhead by Chugginator? He's also apparently working on a Spanish Franco. I think that they definitely fit your criteria for refinement and authenticity.

No, I haven't seen these actually. I haven't really searched these forums since my HD crashed a couple weeks ago... I'll do some surfing and see what comes up. Maybe you could also PM me the thread links? The Spanish defiately need another LeaderHead, that's for sure!

I would also again bring up Masinissa of Carthage as a well-done leaderhead who, with the exception of his having a mustache, closely resembles the historic pictures.

Where can I find this guy?

Oh, that’s not good news at all. Very sorry to hear about it. But at least you have a backup, though an old one.

Yeah, as a general rule of thumb I always keep a backup of this project on a seperate HD, just for this very reason. It's just I got complacient the past couple weeks and didn't regularly back it up once I hit certain milestones. I certainly learned my lesson with this!

I generally like the new UU’s you have listed, especially the fact that you use a combination of land/sea/air, unlike Firaxis’ land-only ones. I do have one comment about the American minuteman, though: if you prefer not to use it (and I perfectly understand your reasons for doing so), you could always use the more formal Continental Regular. Or if you prefer something more modern, an American G.I. would be interesting, and more appropriate, I think, than the Apache gunship, as GI’s played such a pivotal role in 20th century American conflicts. I am very much in favor of the USMC for the same reason. In fact, I renamed the Navy SEAL to U.S. Marine in my own vanilla Civ 4 long ago, so it is nice to see it here.

I'm really glad people are liking having the USMC as one of the American UU's. I think when it comes to colonial era America, I'll use the Minuteman skin by C.Roland as a flavor unit. I find it suiting for that purpose.

It's funny you were mentioning the American G.I. I was considering using it as a UU. I have a good skin for it. I may still use it. I hear the Apache unit is a high poly count, and may slow down the game. I'll have to do some playtesting with it, and if that is infact the case... I'll remove it.

But if I replace it, I'll probably add a naval UU in there.

A naval UU would be very nice too, though no specific class of vessel comes to mind when I think of the U.S. Navy, except perhaps the WW II carriers (Yorktown class?). Maybe an Iowa class battleship.

I think the AEGIS Cruiser would be a great American naval UU. But in order to do it, I would have to find a regular Cruiser unit first, as Civ4 currently doesn't have Cruisers.

I have but one emphatic request, and that is that you rename the Praetorian to Legion or Legionary, for historical accuracy. They were, after all, the ones who built and kept the Roman Empire, not the Praetorian Guard. This kind of goes along the same lines as the SEAL/USMC debate, the few vs. the many.

I plan on changing the name of the Roman Praetorian to Legionary. Since Rome is my favorite Civ in the Civilization series (and the ones I always play with), I find authenticity with them paramount.

Since you want to include unique GP, I’ll see about trying to come up with a list of names for the new Israeli civilization. That reminds me, have you thought about what Israel’s UB will be?

Sure, if you can come up with a good list of unique GP for Israel, I certainly won't turn down the offer! The more help I can get with research, the faster I can release this mod!

I'm up for suggestions for what Israel's UB should be. I want to keep "Israel" seperate from "Judaism", so the UB shouldn't have any Hebrew influences.

Until I can find something originial for Israel's UB, I "borrowed" the Betcholim from Civ4 Gold.

There’s one other thing you might be interested in, to add more flavor: unique national wonders. I’ve been working on a mod off-and-on for a few weeks now, with the object of replacing the existing generic wonders with civ-specific ones, along the same lines as what I did with GP. Examples: Roman National Epic could be the Aeneid, American Hermitage: Smithsonian Institute, Greek Oxford Univ.: Plato’s Academy, German Mt. Rushmore: Brandenburg Gate. For your mod it wouldn’t be necessary to replace every single NW, but maybe three or four per civ, like you did with the UU’s. If you are interested just say the word and I’ll see what I can do.

I was considering creating Unique National Wonders for each Civ. My driving force behind it is the fact Mt. Rushmore is a Great Wonder (or was it National?) At either rate, it bothered me.

If I can get a solid list of good Unique National Wonders, I would consider making this. Some Civs would be tough to come up with... like the Zulu and Mongols.

I'm certainly interested, so let's see what you can do!

Along these same lines, I can also help come up with lists of second UB’s for each civ if you want, which I am very glad to see will be included. (I have always wanted to see the baths for the Romans.)

Yes, I definately want to do this. I too would like to see a Roman Bathhouse. I have a partial listing of 2UB for each Civ, maybe we can compare notes on this and see what we can come up with?

I would also need to employ a building maker to make some of these UB's graphically unique.

So with all that said... thanks for offering to lend a hand to this project, Gaius!



And thanks to everybody else who is helping keep this project alive. I think if I didn't see such a positive response to wanting to see this project finished, I would of thrown in the towel after my HD crashed. But since alot of people are really looking forward to playing it... I shall continue on.

I'm gonna pick up where I left off yesterday and knock a few more UU's out.

Details to come later...



Time to crack open another beer and get busy!

 

[brun58]

I want to add I've been following this thread and am looking forward to your mod. I appreciate all the work modders put in, and know it's that much tougher to have to cover ground you've already gone over, so I want to say thanks for the time your putting into this.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Ok, here are a few preliminary ideas for the second UB's. I’m not really sure how you want to proceed with these, i.e. if you want each UB to replace an existing general building, or if you just want new ones without replacing anything.

Comments/criticisms from everybody are welcome.

America Manufacturing Plant (replaces Factory)
Additional benefit (beyond original): +5% hammers; +10% hammers with Power

England Manor (replaces Grocer)
+5% commerce, +2 culture

France Artist's Guild (replaces Theater)
+2 culture, +10% commerce

Germany Hansa (replaces Bank)
+10% commerce, -10% maintenance

Rome Baths (replaces ??)
+1 happiness, +2 health

Greece Agora (replaces Market)
+5% commerce, +10% GP rate

Spain Jesuit College (replaces ??)
+10% culture, +10% research

Celts Megalith (replaces Monument)
+1 culture, -25% anger from population sacrifice

Vikings Burial Mound (replaces Monument)
+1 culture, +1 happiness

Russia Labor Union/Collectivization (replaces ??)
+10% hammers, +10% maintenance costs

Carthage Fishery (replaces Lighthouse)
+1 trade route, +1 health from fish

Ottomans Millet (replaces Courthouse)
-10% maintenance, +1 happiness, +10% research

Egypt Mastaba (replaces ??)
+10% culture, +1 happiness

Arabia Bazaar (replaces Market)
+5% commerce, +1 happiness per luxury

Japan Kabuki Theatre (replaces Theater)
+2 culture, +1 happiness

Korea Printing House (replaces ??)
+25% research

Mali Shrine (replaces Monument)
+10% research

Aztec Terracotta Aqueduct (replaces aqueduct)
+1 health (for a total of +3)

Inca Ball Court (replaces Colosseum)
+2 happiness

Note that 5 civs are not listed, Persia, India, Mongolia, Zulu, and China.
Again, I’m not sure if it would be better to have each building replace an existing one or if they can just be added as stand-alones, since I’m not sure what some of them would replace. As for Israel, maybe something based on Masada, replacing the castle, would be useful. I realize this has come to symbolize Jewish resistance and thus may not be appropriate in terms of keeping the two themes separated, but it did have a purely secular value in terms of defense.

Just throwing out ideas.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

...And a preliminary list of Israel's Great People. I have tried to include both ancients and moderns.

ISRAEL
GP: Moses**, Samuel, Zechariah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah

GA: Shmuel Yosef Agnon, Mordecai Ardon, Nahum Gutman, Uri Orlev, David Grossman

GS: Abraham Fraenkel, Asher Peres, Aaron Katzir, Jacob Bekenstein, Avi Wigderson, David Harel

GE: Jacob Ziv, Franz Ollendorf, David Deutsch, Itamar Wilner, Zeev Tadmor, Moshe Zakai

GM: Beny Alagem, Daniel M. Lewin, Bob Rosenschein, David Perlmutter, Yoav Hollander, Stef Wertheimer

GG: Joshua, Judah Maccabee, Israel Tal, Moshe Dayan, Jonathan Netanyahu

Moses is specifically noted above because in my civ-specific GP mod he is currently in Egypt, but I can change it to Israel for your mod.

 

[Leif]

America Manufacturing Plant - I think, especially recently, America is better known for consumption and banking than production, maybe a different sort of bank or corporation would be better.
England Manor-Sounds good
France Artist's Guild- I like
Germany Hansa - I like the Bank idea.
Rome Baths - Aqueduct, sounds good.
Greece Agora -sounds interesting
Spain Jesuit College - Jesuit colleges aren't what comes to mind when I think of Spain, Big castles and the inquisition maybe, but not colleges.
Celts Megalith - I don't think Sacrifice was that basic for their culture, I know those druids scarified, but I think something else would be better representative of their culture.
Vikings Burial Mound - I like it a lot.
Russia Labor Union/Collectivization - I believe that labor unions and collectivization would be better suited as a civic, not as necessarily specific to Russia, especially now in Super Capitalist Russia, maybe a science lab would be better, or a jail [Stalag]
Carthage Fishery -seems good
Ottomans Millet - Interesting, I like
Egypt Mastaba - I don't know
Arabia Bazaar -good
Japan Kabuki Theatre -great
Korea Printing House - College?
Mali Shrine -great
Aztec Terracotta Aqueduct - Uhh, I thought Terracotta was the Chinese Army.
Inca Ball Court -I like

China- Work camp/sweat shop?? [factory]
Persia- Persian Forge? [forge]
India- Yogic library?
Mongolia- Horde barracks
Zulu- Apartheid prison or nuclear power plant

 

[Gaius Octavius]

America Manufacturing Plant - I think, especially recently, America is better known for consumption and banking than production, maybe a different sort of bank or corporation would be better.
England Manor-Sounds good
France Artist's Guild- I like
Germany Hansa - I like the Bank idea.
Rome Baths - Aqueduct, sounds good.
Greece Agora -sounds interesting
Spain Jesuit College - Jesuit colleges aren't what comes to mind when I think of Spain, Big castles and the inquisition maybe, but not colleges.
Celts Megalith - I don't think Sacrifice was that basic for their culture, I know those druids scarified, but I think something else would be better representative of their culture.
Vikings Burial Mound - I like it a lot.
Russia Labor Union/Collectivization - I believe that labor unions and collectivization would be better suited as a civic, not as necessarily specific to Russia, especially now in Super Capitalist Russia, maybe a science lab would be better, or a jail [Stalag]
Carthage Fishery -seems good
Ottomans Millet - Interesting, I like
Egypt Mastaba - I don't know
Arabia Bazaar -good
Japan Kabuki Theatre -great
Korea Printing House - College?
Mali Shrine -great
Aztec Terracotta Aqueduct - Uhh, I thought Terracotta was the Chinese Army.
Inca Ball Court -I like

China- Work camp/sweat shop?? [factory]
Persia- Persian Forge? [forge]
India- Yogic library?
Mongolia- Horde barracks
Zulu- Apartheid prison or nuclear power plant

Interesting point you bring up about the American manufacturing plant--I was thinking about maybe a commerce bonus for it as well, to reflect the American economy, as you suggested.

Clarification on some of the others:
Spain, Jesuit College--I have to admit I "borrowed" this from a Civ 3 Conquest. It's really not the best idea I've ever had, but it's supposed to reflect the Inquisition.

Viking Burial Mound--the Vikings also buried entire ships w/ treasure in their mounds. Don't know what could reflect that, though.

Celtic Megalith--doesn't have to have the sacrifice bonus, but alternatively could have some kind of scientific or religious bonus.

Aztec Terracotta Aqueduct--while not the best name I can think of, the Aztecs did in fact build an elaborate aqueduct system made of terracotta, which is one reason why Tenochtitlan was one of the largest and most advanced cities in pre-Columbian Central America.

Ottoman Millet--clarification: the term refers to an autonomous religious community in the empire, not the grain. So I suppose some kind of happiness/commerce increase is appropriate.

Mali Shrine--just a general name I thought of, to reflect the importance of religion and learning in Mali.

Korea Print House--the Koreans were printing with moveable type in 1403, resulting in a science bonus as well as a M*A*S*H joke (I was in 1402 and they kept me awake all night.) Actually, I don't know if moveable type was all that influential in Korea, though woodblock prints were.

Russia--I think there is already a lab UB, but a jail UB sounds good, or a secret police hq.

Mongolia, Horde barracks--Interesting idea, though I don't know as this might make the Mongols too powerful along with the Ger.

India, Yogic library--I'm not familiar with the term Yogic, but I like the idea of some sort of science bonus to reflect Indian learning over the ages.

Zulu--I don't know, the prison and nuclear plant don't seem too useful. I was thinking maybe a recruitment center in place of the barracks (to reflect Shaka's recruiting policies), but then we have the same problem as with the Mongols.

I am very curious to see what Grave has already come up with for the UB's, as he is supposed to have about half of them done already.

 

[Leif]

Maybe the Mali Shrine could be the 'animist shrine'.

The Mongolians could have a Barbecue instead of a grocer.

Yogic refers to Yoga, as in Yoga Library, where Yogis spread their knowledge of things and whatnot, maybe with a science boost and a lowered upkeep.

Zulu- maybe a replacement for the courthouse would be appropriate to represent the ability of the chief to maintain relative order over large groups?

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Sorry about that; it did finally dawn on me that you were obviously referring to Yoga, which I think would be both interesting and appropriate for India.

I think you may be onto something about the Zulu--I seem to recall reading about how Shaka reorganized society into an age-grade system, which presumably increased the order (= decreased maintenance). So a courthouse replacement would be very good.

 

[Good Sauce]

Sorry about that; it did finally dawn on me that you were obviously referring to Yoga, which I think would be both interesting and appropriate for India.

I think you may be onto something about the Zulu--I seem to recall reading about how Shaka reorganized society into an age-grade system, which presumably increased the order (= decreased maintenance). So a courthouse replacement would be very good.

With The Zulu UB barracks I think a courthouse 2nd UB would be very broken. They can already get -70%. An improved courthouse on top of that would allow almost unlimted expansion very early.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

I read about these Aztec aquaducts, they were initialy ditches in the ground but calcification of minerals in the group water actualy causes them to rise on a mound of "Traverten" (sp?) (calcium deposit much like what cave stelactites/stelagmites are made of) over the course of centuries. So call them Traverten Aquaducts. Effect might be that their half the cost to build of normal aquaduct. Roman Bath should give a big Health bonus.

Also the sugjested effects so far aren't as diverse as they could be, you seem to be rescricting yourself to a narrow range of effects. Consider things like adding a flat Yield bonus like +2 Hammer or +3 Commerce, thouse will be stronger in the early game then +% type bonuses.

Lastly lets try to get a UB for buildings which currently dont have any unique versions, I'll list them here...

Bunker, Bombshelter, Hospital, Recycling Center, DryDock, AirPort, Hydro and Nuke plants (Frence Nuclear powerplant that dosn't blowup and is cheaper perhaps?), University, Broadcast tower. Severl of these were covered in Civ Gold but a few weren't

 

[Gaius Octavius]

@Good Sauce:
Good point about the maintenance. I have to admit I don't have a ready solution except to say that it would be better not to have 2 buildings with that effect.

@Impaler[WrG]:
About the broadcast tower as one possible UB--if you look in some of the Warlords files you will find an entry for something like "American broadcast tower," which to me indicates that Firaxis was planning a different UB than the mall originally.

A Drydock UB would be good for naval-oriented civ, like maybe Carthage. French nuke plant would be interesting, though of course you're completely screwed if you don't have uranium. I'd opt for a hydro plant given the choice, but I don't know of any particular nation that has truly unique dams, just those that have major ones (Aswan, Hoover, Three Gorges...)

I could conceivably see some kind of bunker for the British, to represent the Battle of Britain and whatnot. Bombshelters are probably the most useless buildings in the game--if you're worried about nukes just pass the non-proliferation treaty or build SDI, so I think that's probably out.

There are really a lot of different effects that we haven't considered yet, not just flat bonuses to yields but things like bonuses to religious spread, attack/defense bonuses to adjacent squares a la Civ 3 radar towers (hmm, that definitely has possibilities...British radar tower, anyone?), and promotion bonuses.

These are just a few ideas; Grave of course is the final authority as it's his mod, which is why I didn't do very much with the bonuses as I'm waiting to see what he's already made.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

@Good Sauce:
Another take on the Zulu building: maybe instead of decreased maintenance cost, the UB courthouse could give decreased unit cost. That way you could have more units, but not cities. This might better reflect the military nature of Shaka's reforms.

@Grave:
I realize this is a late request, but I was wondering if you might consider the possibility of adding Babylonia as a second new civ. There have been some versions already made by others (in Rhye's and Fall, for example), so I don't know if it would add that much work.
Not that big of a deal, really. I just always thought it was a major oversight on the part of the makers that this civ was never included in Vanilla.

 

[Ishon]

You know, I've got an idea. Why not remove the diplomatic consequences of nuke/chemical/other atrocity and introduce a better mechanism - every civ that declares war on a civ that commited atrocity within last 2 turns gets a happiness bonus? I mean - if the human player doesn't change his attitude to a civ commiting atrocities, he/she should be affected otherwise. Or perhaps somebody has another idea of how to solve this issue? I mean - how to punish a civ commiting atrocities? Or should commiting atrocities simply increase war weariness/happiness in your country?

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Ok eliminate/reduce WW in your oponents making it easier for them to war on you.

 

[Leif]

Maybe the improved Zulu courthouse thing would have a bonus to food or health?

 

[Grave]

@Grave:
I realize this is a late request, but I was wondering if you might consider the possibility of adding Babylonia as a second new civ. There have been some versions already made by others (in Rhye's and Fall, for example), so I don't know if it would add that much work.
Not that big of a deal, really. I just always thought it was a major oversight on the part of the makers that this civ was never included in Vanilla.

It's never late, really.

I do miss Babylon from the original game. The problem is... we would need to come up with at least 4 UU's for Babylon. I'd hate to have to resort to genericness and create a "Babylon Axeman" or something like that.

Plus, if we do more that one UB, what buildings would be the Babylonian UB's?

The rest is cake...

Ok eliminate/reduce WW in your oponents making it easier for them to war on you.

That would probably require SDK work, won't it? Unfortunately, I'm not a C++ programmer so I couldn't do this on my own. But it is a good idea.

Like my first post suggests, I'm also wanting to make Chemical Weapons. They could, in essence, replace the "tactical nuke" idea that Dale, Snafusmith and others have thought about creating.



Ok, just a quick update....

Got a few more UU's done. I've changed a few of them around a little. China no longer has the Type 99 as a UU. I did a few other very minor changes... I'll post a revised UU listing once I'm finished with all the UU's for certain.

I'll also post up my ideas for the 2UB I have stored away here shortly. I'm still mulling over the list I came up with. More to come on that.

Thank you all for helping me out with ideas. You have no idea how much I appreciate it! I can literally spend hours doing research time on trying to figure out the perfect UU/UB for each Civ. It's a daunting task to say the least!

I'm still considering axing the Apache as one of America's UU's. A naval one could replace it, however... how about this idea?

The M1 Abrams battle tank? It would be the ultimate UU to represent the U.S. Army, in my opinion.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Grave: Is their anyware we can download your mod? As far as I can tell you've never made it avalible to anyone to test, am I mistaken.

 

[Grave]

Grave: Is their anyware we can download your mod? As far as I can tell you've never made it avalible to anyone to test, am I mistaken.

It's still rather incomplete. I have yet to work on the Civics and Religion. Most of the UU's I've added I have yet to make "unique", meaning they're only flavor units for the vanilla units they replace. Once I have them all loaded into the mod I'll specialize them. Same goes for most of the buildings/Wonders... although I do have quite a few of them finished.

That's why I haven't released a beta yet. I wanted to release one once I'm near completion, so that way the beta testing can help me iron out some bugs before final release.

 

[Morfydd]

Unique Buildings ..for france what pops into my head first and formost is safe nuclear reactors..France and the US Navy seem to be the only two areas reactors are being used in abundance and without mishap ..<no profit margin push and the reactors are standardized in both cases ..major mishaps tend to be avoided>

 

[Gaius Octavius]

It's never late, really.

I do miss Babylon from the original game. The problem is... we would need to come up with at least 4 UU's for Babylon. I'd hate to have to resort to genericness and create a "Babylon Axeman" or something like that.

Plus, if we do more that one UB, what buildings would be the Babylonian UB's?

The rest is cake...

Possible Babylonian UU's: Assyrian Warrior (replaces Swordsman), Babylonian Bowman from Civ 3 (replaces spearman), Philistine Slinger (replaces archer), Amorite Highlander (replaces Axeman).

UB's: Ziggurat, Cuneiform library

Leaders: Hammurabi, Nebuchadrezzar

I'm still considering axing the Apache as one of America's UU's. A naval one could replace it, however... how about this idea?

The M1 Abrams battle tank? It would be the ultimate UU to represent the U.S. Army, in my opinion.

I don't know, I still think the G.I. or the Minuteman would be better, though I do like this much better than the Apache. Since somebody's also said it might slow the game down (lots of polys) that could tip the scales against it.

I have a lot of ideas for the religious system when you get to that part (see post #75) and I'm very interested to see what you've come up with. Like Impaler[WrG], I am looking forward to the first beta release. This mod looks as though it will rank among the best yet made.