So, how is the new patch K AI?

So, how's the new AI?

  • Vastly better.

    Votes: 20 39.2%
  • A little better

    Votes: 22 43.1%
  • The same, pretty much.

    Votes: 5 9.8%
  • A little worse

    Votes: 3 5.9%
  • Horrid.

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    51
Just played two deity games.
One on RfE which was all too easy.
One using patch m which was difficult. Alexis hit me with a uncountable number of warriors irritatingly early. Which brings up a point, is it possible to find out how many units are in a square? Only the first sixteen appear in the display. If you go into the world builder you can see a few more depending on display resolution but it still only gives you a lower bound.
 
Beyond the first 16 units, rather than displaying units individually it just gives you the number of how many there are in the tooltip.
 
The problem is with counting the units in an enemy stack, not with counting your own units.
 
At the bottom of the list of units there does seem to be some stack nomenclature. Something like "Warrior (432) [combat I] 432 [c2] 400 [c3] 350..etc" indicating that there are 432 warriors, all of which have combat 1, 400 of which have combat 2, etc. It's not very reliable though, I've definitely had situations where the world "catapult" doesn't appear anywhere on the tooltip, but then been hit by a dozen of them. Going to your military advisor can sometimes be helpful, it will at least let you know what enemy units are present where, and give you the total numbers visible.

I'd love to know of a better way also.
 
Back on topic. Started a game of Lord of the Balors under Patch M, as Malakim.

Basium has a few troops running around, but I dunno about any out of the starting area.

Capria is doing bugger all, but Keelyn is the worst. Somehow with improved farmland around, her only city is size 1 and has a stack of 50+ freaks just milling about, useless.

About to research Blasting Powder, so Teuty + Chalid + Camel Archers, Rathas and Arquebus Spam should win me the game in fairly short order.

None of the Infernals have attacked either. Few units wandering around, but biggest threat has been Barbs and their Scorpion Wolf Riders.

Overall I think the AI is much better, but still completely flounders in an Always War situation.
 
I think the idea of "always war" is simply a logic break for the AI. I would wager that as a scenario option or something, make always war also equate to "no war weariness" or at least a hell of alot less, like 10% war weariness is max, or each WW act only does 10% of the Weariness it would normally cause. Im sure that the building of cities and the expansion of an economy during war are factors as well, although the constant threat of attack the AI is undoubtably always calculating could be in some way disuaged for AT LEAST the very specific and controlled Scenarios.
 
Somehow with improved farmland around, her only city is size 1 and has a stack of 50+ freaks just milling about, useless.

I saw this in the last game I played. 2 capitals were both at size 1. I believe it happened after the AC event which decreases all your cities through sickness. The event pushed them down to 1 and for whatever reason they didn't reassign their one worker to make food.

Balseraphs also ran around with that 50+ freak stack and didn't create loki at all.
 
The AI seems unable to build more than 7 warriors in the early game while they only have one city. I've seen this in 4 separate games at emperor and monarch difficulty. I'll harass their countryside with warriors so that their settler and worker can't leave the city, and they'll just sit there with exactly 7 warriors every time, never building another unit.
 
I've been playing emperor, both before and after the patch (0.41m). I would usually dominate before, but now my country is often crushed. It makes a big difference when the AI gets advanced units, especially considering how much they are allowed to "cheat". In addition to the advance units, I've been seeing much larger stacks now. (240+ battle-hardened Priests is not a welcom site.) I'll have to rethink my style. but I've got to say it makes for a much better game than the AI building warriors all game.
 
I've seen the AI using spells much better. In my current game, theri SoD was coming, and I was ready to take it on. It cast haste, used Maelstorm, and bashed me - never happened before!

I reloaded (I know this means I lost but I wanted to play out anyway) and I had to learn new defensive tricks.

It is also doing a very good job of building a combined arms force - having defensive untis cover mages and catapults. Indeed, it may be a little too balanced (maybe too many mages?) but it is very much better.

However, it seems that the barbarians have been nerfed somewahat from their killer status before patch M (or is this my imagination?)

Very nice.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I just played my first game where I thought: "Damn. Those AI Players really want to win."

Maybe it was just luck but all the DoW's were well thought.
Pangea, Immortal 7 Civs.

In the West: Tasunke and Jonas were just DoW'ing one civ after another and steamrolled them.
In the East: I struggled vs. Capria - we then backstabbed Faeryl - and then fought against each other.

There was a moment in the game where three (!!) Civs where annihilated within one turn. (Tasunke > Dain; Jonas > Sidar; Capria + Arendel (me) > Faeryl).

Immediately after that Tasunke and Jonas fought about who is the king of the "west" where Capria and me (she DoWed on me) fought about the Queen of the "East" :lol:.
Jonas won - I won.

Jonas was very close to Domination limit - so he moved his SoD (80 Ogre, 80 Chariots, Mages, Catapults ...) in my direction - and I had just like 15 Turns to strengthen my defense.
It was hard - but I won.

Does the AI understand defensive strikes?
My Gilden killed like 80+ Units in one turn (within others ... :Drill IV, Blitz, both Defensive Strikes Promos = 90% Def. Strike for 45% damage - mutated - cannibalize - Owned :D) and gained 110xp (187 - 297 Xp :D).

The AI does build many Adepts/Mages - maybe too many?
They use the magic very good. They maelstrom me, they rust me, they fireball me ...

I have to admit: That was the most flavourful game I've ever had. Fascinating.
 
Breunor, you are noticing a removal of a barb-strength-increase mechanism that had slipped past with patch K. Basically you would be fighting 5 strength goblins and 7 strength lizardmen if they had been alive for long enough. I think the way it works is X amount of turns all barbs get +1 strength, or something. I think the counter is unique for each barb unit, although technically it wouldn't be impossible to provide a global +1 bonus every X turns (probably 50 turns on quick speed).

In any event, this leads to early fights against 5 strength lizardmen, and then later fights against some 7 strength lizardmen ... it can get quite gruesome.

Still, this feature was removed upon patching to M, and that is why they are no longer "superbad" heh.
 
Well, yes, I'm actually assuming we are now talking about patch m and not patch k any more, since the thread is about the AI.

I did think the pre-k AI barbs were SMARTER, it isn't an issue of their strength. they would hang out until they could take you on. With limited plays, they seem easier to handle now.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
ah ... well they were certainly hard to deal with during Raging barbs on Patch K ... or maybe its just Magister's Modmod ... but im pretty sure its patch k in general.

Unfortunately, wether due to heavy barbs or simply a lack of intelligent AI, the AI in magisters ModMod don't put up quite the resistance that they do in say, patch M base mod.

Maybe upon the Merge to Patch M AI, (and any other applicable modmod AI) then Magister's Modmod AI will put up more of a challenge.

I say this b/c I played a game as the bannor, and very quickly (on quick speed) in like 150 turns or so I had the largest empire by far, had never really felt like I was *at the bottom*, and I was playing on emperor. I forsee diety wins in my future under Magister's modmod patch K, however under patch M its far, far less likely. Ack, I forgot my laptop died, so maybe there wont be many future wins as I no longer has a LAPTOP!!! graaaaa. Ah well.
 
In my latest game with patch M, the AI seems to be doing a great job. (On Pangea Map so as not to handicap it with having to deal with oceans.)

It forms Alliances strategically, especially when a faction is seriously in need against another. Vassalage (For the AI) is a common-place result when one nation is faced with overwhelming forces and huge losses during a war. The AI will also break Vassalage when it can but, it doesn't do it immediately if there appears to be a tactical/strategic gain.

The Hero code is much better. The AI seems to protect its Heros a bit better. So far, I've had half a dozen "waves" of attacks from the Calabim, all led by Losha. Now, because she's immortal, her strength is in the high-to-mid twenties. Not good for me.. But, she obviously leads the Calabim army and the AI RESPONDS when she dies. I've set the Calabim war machine, several stacks and hundred of units, into a panic by killing her in the initial assault and actually have seen them "flee" back to their lands. Of course, it may be due to them running back to link up with her because of the code. But, the game effect is really nice. The AI obviously recognizes the importance of its heroes.. or, does a good job of faking it. ;) She is always protected and in a deep stack of units. She also "flees" when its obvious she is suffering huge losses that could endanger her life.. this time around..(She's getting a bit tougher to kill though and it doesn't guarantee their assault will stop either.)

The AI does do a better job of using magic and it does promote its units. Though, I'm not sure how "sane" the promotions are but the units seem to be effective. I constantly get bombarded with spells during combat which makes taking efforts to reduce the possible effects of them are completely necessary and not just "flavor." While it's frustrating at times it's also much better than laughing at the AI's lack of proficiency when using magic-based units. Now, magic "means something" when it is in the hands of the AI.

Raiding - The AI recognizes resources and will make a concerted effort to pillage them during a war. I've had to place roving picket lines inside my own borders to keep the AI from successfully pillaging needed resources. The AI has opened up "break-through" points through my lines and flooded my interior with horseman, all trying to pillage resource tiles. BRILLIANT! This is a coordinated attack, not some random group of horseman. In between the waves, I don't get random horseman attacks into my interior. But, during concerted attacks, the AI definitely tries to get units into my backfield to disrupt my resources. I like seeing that rather than the needless waste of sending one or two horseman in every other turn or so like it had done sometime in the past.

The AI conserves its strength. The AI does not attack me ceaselessly, throwing its units into a meat grinder for no reason. It will leave me alone for several turns while building up an impressive array of forces. It still has a bit of a problem in keeping those forces together, however. There are usually a few stragglers not in "formation" with the main SOD's. But, it's much better than it used to be with the AI trickling in attackers that could be mopped up with no effort. Now, the breastworks are under massive assaults with short lulls in between. Attacks are not the standard "trickle in" attacks the AI used to do seemingly just setting a waypoint for unit production. These attacks are "en masse'" and much more effective. The AI waits until it has a sufficient number of troops and doesn't needlessly waste them.

The AI still doesn't understand how to conduct a naval assault and landing of troops. I haven't seen something like that from any FFH2 AI since waaay back. Even then, it was spotty. Now, the AI doesn't bother with it although it does build ships which is certainly a step in the right direction. It does attack cities with those ships and will use units like the Octopus Overlords priests with Water Walking to some extent. But, it does not load up units on a transport and then land them in hostile territory that I have seen. That's not, necessarily, a terrible thing if everything else is working correctly. Plenty of games have trouble with proper AI concerning oceans.

The AI doesn't seem to understand the complex uses of the various World Spells. That's OK. It's not easy to understand when the best time for using them would be anyway. At least the AI actively uses them and doesn't just pop them all off on Turn 0.

I'm really enjoying the "new" AI in FFH2. It's a breath of fresh air. Now, the AI can be appropriately difficult on all levels of play.
 
When you guys talk about stacks with 100+ troops, how do you do it? Or do you just mean the AI who has different restrictions?

Unless it's late game, I can't imagine having an economy that can support that many units. There comes a point in my games where my economy can support just about anything, but until then financial limitations prevent me from even imagining these large size armies.

I've been playing on immortal though mostly, so I figure that probably factors into it. With the new patch I've been seeing ai's go nuts with the number of troops they can afford to have.
 
The AI has advantages on higher difficulties. These involve things like:
Production modifier (+x% production)
Cheaper techs
reduced unit upkeep (on deity, IIRC, unit upkeep is either 10x a humans, or each unit they have to pay for is 1/10 a gold)
reduced upgrade (think ingeneous... then reduce it some more. IIRC (again), a warrior upgrading to an axman on deity is about 10 gold).

As for humans having stacks of 100+, generally this doesn't happen until after turn 200 (normal speed), at least from my personal experience. There are a few tricks that I can use that will allow me to build and maintain a very large army (not counting the bannor crusade) starting around turn 200, but this isn't really the thread to talk about it.

-Colin
 
I really think that the AI is MUCH improved over J for example. Maybe now is the time to tame down some of their "cheating" advantages? Otherwise human players are going to have to abandon many options just to keep their military strong enough to survive.
 
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