So I wonder if I can call myself a 'Black English' person from now on.

Also don't all people originate from Africa anyway?

I am totally black.

They do, and you are. And totally English too.

In fact, you're the most totally total person I've ever come across.

And I agree about people with dark skins being called black. It just seems the most normal thing in the world to divide everyone into their two racial groups: black, and white supremacist. (I'm black, too, btw.)
 
"People originate from Africa =/= we were all originally black"

The most ancient group of humanity (they split from the entire rest first, and they numbered at least 50% of all humans at that time) are the Khoi-San, who never evolved truly black skin (very dark, black skin evolved independently in several places - including equatorial Africa - but original humanity was not "that black").

If you think that original humans looked exactly like modern people of West-Central Africa, then this is a wrong belief. No of modern human groups look exactly like them, because we all changed - but the closest to them in appearance are probably the Khoi-San, as they used to have the most of genetic diversity of all groups:

Spoiler :

8643f6bcd90a6c3ed2a88ada98a0eb42.jpg


tumblr_mbu9khYEkB1roafx4o1_500.jpg


Do you think that they look black? Maybe when heavily tanned...

Original humans were brown, then some evolved lighter and others (like West-Central Africans) evolved darker. They looked more similar to a mixture of all existing modern ethnic groups, than to any specific one.
 
So Beyonce isnt black?
 
Ethnicity is what you make of it. If you think of yourself as 'black', and people react to you as 'black', you're 'black' regardless of the amount of light you reflect. The reason that most people from the subcontinent are not usually considered black, even though they have dark skin, is that people consider them a different group from people whose ancestry is in Africa or the Caribbean, and they don't think that they have an essential kinship with them.
 
people consider them a different group from people whose ancestry is in Africa or the Caribbean

People who live in the Caribbean who are Black, also have ancestry in Africa during the last few centuries. "Black Caribs" aren't pure Native Americans, but runaway African slaves who joined and mixed with native Carib tribes.

They are Zambo, in Spanish terminology.

So Beyonce isnt black?

She is Mulatto. Or maybe that was Latte Macchiato. Something like this.
 
Ethnicity is what you make of it. If you think of yourself as 'black', and people react to you as 'black', you're 'black' regardless of the amount of light you reflect.

The problem with this seems to be that.. the lady who is clearly white, but has convinced people that she is black.. would actually be black under this definition. So it can't be quite correct.
 
BornInCantaloup,

Caucasian doesn't refer to white skin because if it did, then Japanese people would be Caucasian too.

Ha! Thank you! I had entirely missed that, this is all very helpful ! Enlightening, if I may say so.

Now I can see that it isn't racist to endorse racial classifications, because human races do exist. And since they can be objectively distinguished, even beyond the essential criteria of colour, it is only stating a fact to call one person Caucasian, Mongoloid or Negroid. And stating facts couldn't be racist by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, that doesn't work too well.
Endorsing racial denominators as meaningful is a racist act. It supports the idea that humanity isn't a race in itself but is rather divided into separate races and, besides, that these races are relevant to one's identity.
It doesn't have to be ill-intended to be a racist act. All racism isn't ill-intended. In fact, most of the time it isn't : it is underlying and latent. While we, poor humans, are helpless and just pick the words and ideas that float around us, we can take part in the racist enterprise.

Well, it appears that cats, dogs and humans are separate races, while the Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid categories are racist constructs.




This is a wonderful and compelling argument but if you'd read that link you posted, you might have noticed it does support my line of thinking.


Regards, fellow humans.
 
Classifications such as "Caucasian, Mongoloid, etc." are indeed not really useful anymore, at least since the announcement that the essentially complete human genome had been sequenced, which was on April 14, 2003.

Since that moment, we can check people's DNA to see from which group of humanity came their ancestors, instead of examining their looks.

Thanks to that it was established that 14%-38% of Native Americans originated from European-like people who lived in Siberia 24,000 years ago - link:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13860001&postcount=28

By the way - "Caucasian" was always used to describe Western Eurasians as well, not just Europeans alone.

The name is "Caucasian" for a reason - it is named after prehistoric humans who looked similar to modern Europeans and lived near Caucasus.

People of the Gravettian culture who started to colonize Europe some 33,000 years ago had lived to the south of the Caucasus before that date. Then they crossed the Caucasus to the north, and through Russia and Ukraine they gradually moved into the whole of Europe.

Another branch of the same population did not cross the Caucasus, and stayed in the Middle East.

But the Gravettians were not the first modern humans in Europe.

The first were people of the Aurignacian culture, one of whom was Kostenki 14.

The bust of Kostenki 14 man, who lived some 36,000 years ago near the Russian-Ukrainian border (bust reconstructed from his skull):

Kostenki_14.png
possibly_Kostenki.jpg


People related to Kostenki 14 were not totally replaced by new immigrants, but generally they became a minority of the population.

Today Europeans have perhaps no more than 10% of their ancestry from Kostenki-like people, while the remaining 90% is from later immigrant waves.

As you can see Kostenki 14 did not resemble modern Europeans very much. Only some Europeans have such "exotic" looks today:

kostenki_14_and_his_doppelganger_nemesis_israel_zangwill.jpg
 
Fine, Caucasian holds a valid meaning within archeology, describing people originating from the Caucasus. I wouldn't dispute that.


I've been striken, too, by how the term has been used to describe North African and even West Indian populations. That was in a racial context, however.


:)
 
It seems to be a very common term that's used in common language to describe people from Europe and surrounding regions. It might be rooted in a problematic and racist past, but it's just a part of our language now. 99.99999% of people who use this term do not do so with racist connotations in mind - but purely descriptive ones.
 
The problem with this seems to be that.. the lady who is clearly white, but has convinced people that she is black.. would actually be black under this definition. So it can't be quite correct.

Well, no, because she doesn't actually think she's black: she feels that she is actually white, but pretending to be black. If she genuinely thought of herself as a black woman, then she would be one. You can see examples of this throughout history - for example, people from Turkey and Iran were at various points considered 'white', and people from Spain and Italy have occasionally been considered as 'not white'. It's entirely a social construct, based on but not determined by genetics.
 
I've been striken, too, by how the term has been used to describe North African and even West Indian populations.

You are probably right that this term "Caucasian" does not really apply to Indian and North African populations. India has been a real melting pot, there have been multiple migrations through and into it during prehistory and history. But Europe has also been such a melting pot - at least 3-4 major prehistoric migrations contributed to the diversity of modern Europeans. Plus historical migrations too.

Modern Indians are partially descended from same groups of peoples as modern Europeans, but partially from different ones. Indians are a population on their own, but most of Indians are more closely related to West Eurasians than they are to Chinese, Japanese, Mongol, Korean, etc. people. There is a genetic continuum, but this red line is roughly where populations start looking similar to East Asian people:

(and it isn't really surprising why this place, and not any other - look how narrow there is between the ocean and the Himalayas):

Red_Line.png


The Inner Asian Corridor and all those Steppe Zones have been major routes of human migrations.

Mountains and deserts were hampering movements of people (but migrations through Caucasus and Kara Kum Desert - along the coasts of Black or Caspian Seas; and between Hindukush and the Himalayas - through that narrow place connecting India with the Inner Asian Corridor; did take place).

Migrations along the Indian Ocean also did take place, and then through India to South-East Asia and Australia.
 
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