So Numidian cavalry start with flanking 1 and keep it when upgraded...

[frob2900]

What I don't like about Keshiks is that they are in direct contradiction to the aggressive trait.

I feel you on this one. Lack of free combat I is a bummer, but the Ger does kind of make up for this (a bit, at least).

Have you tried using Keshiks as reinforcements for your axe stack? That is, attack with axes but reinforce the stack with keshiks as axes die or get left on garrison duty. Their speed and mobility means you can replenish losses much faster.

Of course, you can also keep sending slow moving axe reinforcements to keep the axe number up, but the stream of keshik reinforcements will keep the stack powerful.

 

[gettingfat]

Comparing numcav and Keshiks,

• Numcav are less afraid of spears, the achilles heel of Keshiks
• While Ger sounds great, I'd welcome a free promotion more.
• The free promotion + charismatic trait works synergistically
• Horse archers need to be large in number and concentrated to work well (Flank-based units as "softener", strength-based units as finisher). Hannibal's better economy can support a larger army.
• the new "flank attack" feature in BtS

That's said, a lot of time when I find a copper very early near my capital or 2nd city, I'll go for an axeman rush, which is a more reliable offence.

 

[frob2900]

-Numcav are less afraid of spears, the achilles heel of Keshiks
-While Ger sounds great, I'd welcome a free promotion more.

Well, in principle, you're right. However with Genghis I generally have 1-2 generals settled in my military city in the classical era. This makes up for the free promotion.

And to be honest combat II/shock keshiks don't have as much trouble with spears as people tend to imagine.

-The free promotion + charismatic trait works synergistically
-Horse archers need to be large in number and concentrated to work well -(Flank-based units as "softener", strength-based units as finisher). Hannibal's better economy can support a larger army.
-the new "flank attack" feature in BtS[/LIST]

I agree completely with all of these arguments.

The fact that Keshiks do not keep their intrinsic UU bonuses when upgraded, whereas NumCavs do, is a good argument in favour of Hannibal compared to the Mongols.

That's said, a lot of time when I find a copper very early near my capital or 2nd city, I'll go for an axeman rush, which is a more reliable offence.

Yes. Indeed. What I was getting at earlier is that, if you have them, horse archer units are very good reinforcements in the case of axe rush strategies, since they reach the front much faster.

The Keshiks reach the front fastest of all, since reliable road networks are usually not in place when you do your first expansion war.

Nevertheless, of all horse archer based strategies, I still prefer Keshiks with Genghis. Keshiks are what he does.

 

[dutchfire]

The problem with Keshiks is that they are totally useless against longbowmen, so they're window of opportunity is rather short.

 

[futurehermit]

NumCav are also totally useless against longbows though (as a comparison).

Keshiks to reinforce an axe-stack is a good idea imo.

Plus, it is possible to completely stagnate an opponent with Keshiks.

Basically, you pillage any metals and horses, surround their empire (loosely) with keshiks so they can't expand, pillage them to the stoneage so they don't tech, and then take them out at your leisure with cats + whatever.

That is the power of keshiks imo. Nets you 1 (2 sometimes) rival territory early.