Winner
Diverse in Unity
Merkozy have summoned Papandreou to Cannes for some grilling, this will be fun...
So, the greece people are to decide it
- Thread starter Loppan Torkel
- Start date
Yes, that has been known since yesterday. But you have to admit it seems unreal.
Samaras made clear that he will do all he can to cancel the referendum. Bakoyanni even openly asked from the mp's of Pasok to "cause the government to fall".
I am ashamed of living in a country governed by this loon. Ashamed also of the past generation that brought this destruction.
Samaras made clear that he will do all he can to cancel the referendum. Bakoyanni even openly asked from the mp's of Pasok to "cause the government to fall".
I am ashamed of living in a country governed by this loon. Ashamed also of the past generation that brought this destruction.
anandus
Errorist
Friday is the vote of confidence, right?
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Well, that's how I have felt about my country for some time now. It's just we aren't about to go bankrupt (yet).
---
Anyway, I think I'll move my commentary to Cheetah's thread, we have too many of them here.
AL_DA_GREAT
amour absinthe révolution
The Euro lasted 12 years. Contrary to the third reich this system collapsed without war. Hardly impressive.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
I know you people are still fed up that your Aryan master project failed, but don't take it out on the Euro 
It's still very much alive.
It's still very much alive.
aelf
Ashen One
I'm not sure what you'd rather they do. Spend their money on paying the poor to accept capitalism? Look where that got Greece. You're practically staring at the lesson to be learned and missing it.
What happened in Greece was more like the people being bribed to look the other way while the upper class were the only ones benefitting from capitalism.
(I wonder how long it takes before someone else says that's the case for all capitalist countries.)
(I wonder how long it takes before someone else says that's the case for all capitalist countries.)
aelf
Ashen One
That's essentially what I said.
Silurian
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2010
- Messages
- 7,567
The BBC is reporting that the Greek government has said that the referendum may be held in December
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15549352
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15549352
wolfigor
Emperor
Unfortunately the road to the Drachma is not paved in silver or any other precious material but, at least for the average Greek, mostly a more sticky brownish substance.
For Greece getting out of Euro and EU means in first super devaluation, the Drachma will be immediately under fire and will loose "a lot" against all other currencies especially against Euro.
Spoiler :
Almost all Greek debt is today in Euro, so the cost of that debt will double together with the fall of Drachma.
At the same time Greece will be not able to borrow anything unless paying overly punishing interest rates that can badly afford.
Getting out of EU also means getting out of free trade agreement and out of the main export market for Greece: the lower cost of Greek goods (thanks to currency devaluation) will not cover for such loss.
Imports will cost, obviously, much more... and Greece has a very weak production industry and services: hi cost imports will have a huge negative impact on the economy.
For people it will means to see all their savings get blown away, loss of jobs, and very hi costs for everything.
Probably the country will recover with time, but in the meantime the pain for the average Greek and Greek society will be extreme.
An interesting CNBC take on the affair:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45118308
titled "Greece: the most powerful country in the world".
I've been writing for quite some time that I did not expect Greece to passively accept the onerous austerity conditions that so many of Europe's elites sought to impose as a condition for bailing them out.
Greece has an ancient and noble tradition of defaulting. And, arguably, the other European nations have even more to lose than Greece through a default.
So Merryn Somerset Webb's remarks at Money Week strike me as very much correct:
Greece has all the power. The talk around the bail-outs is usually about what Germany is prepared to do rather than what Greece is prepared to accept. Germany is assumed to have the power. But Greece has now shown the markets that it just isn’t so. If the Greeks decide they don’t fancy the terms much and announce a disorderly exit, it is game over for the euro, for Europe’s economy and for Germany’s weak currency-driven export boom.
Time for everyone to start being a bit more polite to Greece. A senior member of Angela Merkel’s government has noted that he is irritated: “"Other countries are making considerable sacrifices for decades of mismanagement and poor leadership in Greece,” he says. I suspect that if they don’t start staving off the next banking crisis, they might have to make a few more.
I'll add something else: if Greece repudiates its debt, I do not believe that the parade of horrors that many predict will follow. I do not believe, for instance, that it will be permanently shut out of credit markets. For one thing, it is already shut out of credit markets for the foreseeable future, so default won't change that.
But a post repudiation Greece would have one of the healthiest balance sheets in Europe. It would be a very good credit. Much better than it is now. Sure, some financial companies may hesitate to lend to a recent defaulter. But there are sources of capital around the world that would be very happy to lend to a country with a clean balance sheet, on the grounds that a subsequent default is very unlikely.
Vengence, after all, is not a financial strategy.
---
Well, i would very much want to believe that this is what is going on. But in reality this would assume that Papandreou's ankles are not cut through, and strings do not extend from them upwards, as in puppets...
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45118308
titled "Greece: the most powerful country in the world".
I've been writing for quite some time that I did not expect Greece to passively accept the onerous austerity conditions that so many of Europe's elites sought to impose as a condition for bailing them out.
Greece has an ancient and noble tradition of defaulting. And, arguably, the other European nations have even more to lose than Greece through a default.
So Merryn Somerset Webb's remarks at Money Week strike me as very much correct:
Greece has all the power. The talk around the bail-outs is usually about what Germany is prepared to do rather than what Greece is prepared to accept. Germany is assumed to have the power. But Greece has now shown the markets that it just isn’t so. If the Greeks decide they don’t fancy the terms much and announce a disorderly exit, it is game over for the euro, for Europe’s economy and for Germany’s weak currency-driven export boom.
Time for everyone to start being a bit more polite to Greece. A senior member of Angela Merkel’s government has noted that he is irritated: “"Other countries are making considerable sacrifices for decades of mismanagement and poor leadership in Greece,” he says. I suspect that if they don’t start staving off the next banking crisis, they might have to make a few more.
I'll add something else: if Greece repudiates its debt, I do not believe that the parade of horrors that many predict will follow. I do not believe, for instance, that it will be permanently shut out of credit markets. For one thing, it is already shut out of credit markets for the foreseeable future, so default won't change that.
But a post repudiation Greece would have one of the healthiest balance sheets in Europe. It would be a very good credit. Much better than it is now. Sure, some financial companies may hesitate to lend to a recent defaulter. But there are sources of capital around the world that would be very happy to lend to a country with a clean balance sheet, on the grounds that a subsequent default is very unlikely.
Vengence, after all, is not a financial strategy.
---
Well, i would very much want to believe that this is what is going on. But in reality this would assume that Papandreou's ankles are not cut through, and strings do not extend from them upwards, as in puppets...
Well, you have to be proud of something, don't you?
The more I think about this, the more it reminds me of the following parable (it's wikipedia's summary):
Does it? I mean if that was the plan would it not be a lot more noble to just announce from the start, last year, that Greece is defaulting on its own (ala Iceland) ?
What was there to gain by causing the demise of the Euro in the process? Surely nothing much for Greece itself, unless you think it is about to use its massive armed forces to re-institute the Byzantine Empire and wants to ruin all antagonism in Europe
Not sure. Maybe a year ago the chance (danger) that Greeks would actually vote for the bailout would've been larger?Does it? I mean if that was the plan would it not be a lot more noble to just announce from the start, last year, that Greece is defaulting on its own (ala Iceland) ?
What was there to gain by causing the demise of the Euro in the process? Surely nothing much for Greece itself, unless you think it is about to use its massive armed forces to re-institute the Byzantine Empire and wants to ruin all antagonism in Europe
Agent Cooper
Lynch's Creation
Sure, if this was heads-up in Texas Hold'em and Papandreo was trying to bluff Merkel by going all-in with a crap hand, he might get away with it this time.
But it's not heads-up. There are 16 other players across the table with hands of varying strengt still in the game. And they all know that Papandreo is sitting with a Doyle Brunson at best.
To add, I'm reading that a 'no' is the most likely outcome of this somewhat undefined referendum, judging from the buzz in Greece right know, making a Greek default a mathematical certainty. To add to that, lets just wait and see if the chair Papandreo is sitting on doesn't suddenly disintegrate beneath his and his governments asses in the next few days. Lastly, I'm also reading that Merkel had mandate to and was prepared to call it quits if the recent deal haven't shaped up the way it did.
The question is - are they thinking about doing a Lehman Brothers on Greece if Papandreo doesn't come to his senses very soon?
But it's not heads-up. There are 16 other players across the table with hands of varying strengt still in the game. And they all know that Papandreo is sitting with a Doyle Brunson at best.
To add, I'm reading that a 'no' is the most likely outcome of this somewhat undefined referendum, judging from the buzz in Greece right know, making a Greek default a mathematical certainty. To add to that, lets just wait and see if the chair Papandreo is sitting on doesn't suddenly disintegrate beneath his and his governments asses in the next few days. Lastly, I'm also reading that Merkel had mandate to and was prepared to call it quits if the recent deal haven't shaped up the way it did.
The question is - are they thinking about doing a Lehman Brothers on Greece if Papandreo doesn't come to his senses very soon?
Similar threads
