• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

So, the Worst UU was decided to be...

Worst UU?


  • Total voters
    131
Where Numidian Calvary get a boost back from their weaker strength, is not just their +50% vs. Melee, and free Flanking 1 Promotion, but, from their Leader being Charismatic.
They are able to gain promotions faster, so, they could have that Combat 1, or Flanking 2, before going into the next battle.
When, the barracks is built, and at least 1 more xp gained, it can be Combat 1 and Shock, which makes them even better at taking out those axemen, swordsmen and spearmen.
You place a GG on one, and now you have a unit that can survive more battles, early on.

I am not saying it is the best unit ever, but, there are ways to make it work, should you get this empire randomally. Hannibal's FIN trait and cothon are good as well. Great combo. Happiness and Gold, what more do you want? ;)
 
I can see why dog soldiers are unpopular, but since I never seem to axe-rush these days, I don't mind them. Resourceless is useful and then there's no rush to tech archery, despite the UB.

Although I haven't yet used ballista elephants in a war, there have been plenty of occasions when I would have liked to have them over normal elephants.

I have to vote panzer. So late, and I can't say I've ever had a remotely even battle between two tanks.
 
I hate the dog soldier. It might be more useful if it wasn't attached to a Civ that has among the best archers in the game. I do consider it worse than the base unit. It's slightly better than the axe against melee and worse against everything else.

A lot of the UU"s really do very little.

This is a consistent thread - worst UU. I think I've seen about 4 polls on this. It always sparks debate, however, so it must be a good subject.

One day I was pouring hate on the dog soldier, and TMIT pointed out that it was a zero-defect choker. It turns out he's right. If you play NA, you can go 1v1 against pretty much anything and utterly oppress it. There's obviously more to Civ than one-on-one fights, but this is a particular forte of NA that can be used even on a crowded map.

If you play raging barbs on a high difficulty, it's also easy to appreciate the resourceless units. They can be a godsend.
 
Is that possible? Seems to me the strength against spears is the biggest attraction.

Yeah it's possible, because of the somewhat arcane way that civ 4 calculates combat odds. The short answer is that, when you're fighting a unit with a lot of bonuses (like the 100% bonus that spears get against mounted) you're better off using a unit with high base strength, rather than getting bonuses yourself. Consider the case with no HA promotions, but the spear has a hill bonus, CG 1 and 2, fortification 20%, and city culture 60%, for a total defense bonus of +250%.

Against HA: 4*3.5 = 14. 14/6 = 2.33
Against NC: 4*3 = 12. 12/5 = 2.4

So the spear has a higher chance to win against the NC. Admittedly that example is a little extreme, but still it shows how weak the NC is. Even when the spear has no other bonuses, the NC gets only a small advantage compared to the HA.
 
Compared to the base unit, numidian cavalry are pretty bad against cities and the base unit itself. Free flanking is nice though, probably enough to put them on par at least, I would have thought.
 
Admittedly that example is a little extreme, but still it shows how weak the NC is.

I see your point, even if you did give the spears CG promos. :lol:

I've come to quite like Numidians though, after hating them initially. Probably because they encourage me to focus on Horse Archer warfare in general which I tend not to do otherwise.
 
I see your point, even if you did give the spears CG promos. :lol:

I've come to quite like Numidians though, after hating them initially. Probably because they encourage me to focus on Horse Archer warfare in general which I tend not to do otherwise.

oh yeah I forgot they can't get the CG promo. Well, let's say they have combat 1 and 2, and formation instead, it's the same bonus.

You should really try using regular Horse Archers more. They're an incredably powerful unit. That's why the NC are still decent- they're a downgrade from something that's powerful.
 
oh yeah I forgot they can't get the CG promo. Well, let's say they have combat 1 and 2, and formation instead, it's the same bonus.

You should really try using regular Horse Archers more. They're an incredably powerful unit. That's why the NC are still decent- they're a downgrade from something that's powerful.

But what about free flanking I? I know flanking is not as good as combat, but getting 50% withdrawal out of the box with just a barracks seems pretty good.
 
But what about free flanking I? I know flanking is not as good as combat, but getting 50% withdrawal out of the box with just a barracks seems pretty good.

Yeah, I can never resist starting Numidians off with flanking 2, which I wouldn't do with normal mounted units because combat 2 is a much better use of two promos, and HAs are immune to first strikes anyway. Pretty nice if they make it to cavalry later though as cavalry aren't normally immune, and the AIs are quite fond of drill on defenders.

Maybe the rule of thumb with Numidians is you have to use them a lot, to leverage the withdrawal and charismatic, or not use them at all, because they're initially weaker.
 
I love Jaguars, ever since I learned that Woodsman III stacked with Medic. Monte's Jaguars give you Combat I + Woodsman I for free, so it's only 3 promotions to a super healer.

An early war gets me 6-10 super-healers, and those make all my later wars much easier.
 
For me the jags suck, yet I champion the Dog Soldier. The lack of the resource requirement is nice in both cases, I just for whatever reason get absolutely hosed with the Jags. Oddly, jags aren't my problem when Monty comes knocking on my door.
 
But what about free flanking I? I know flanking is not as good as combat, but getting 50% withdrawal out of the box with just a barracks seems pretty good.

Sure, but it's only a marginal benefit compared to the regular HA. The regular HA can get flanking 1 and 2 with a barracks and stables, if you want that. More often, you just end up getting combat 1 and 2, or combat 1 and shock, so the free flanking 1 is just an extra 10% withdraw chance. That's... OK I guess, but you still need units that can actually kill the thing you're attacking.

on another note, jaguars are excellent, way better than you might think. Being able to move twice through forest is extremely powerful, especially in multiplayer.
 
Sure, but it's only a marginal benefit compared to the regular HA. The regular HA can get flanking 1 and 2 with a barracks and stables, if you want that. More often, you just end up getting combat 1 and 2, or combat 1 and shock, so the free flanking 1 is just an extra 10% withdraw chance. That's... OK I guess, but you still need units that can actually kill the thing you're attacking.

on another note, jaguars are excellent, way better than you might think. Being able to move twice through forest is extremely powerful, especially in multiplayer.
One small use of Numidian's free Flanking 1 that hasn't been mentioned yet, it allows you to get Mobility with Baracks and Stable. I'm unsure how useful it is in practice as i've only done it on a large scale once or twice.
 
One small use of Numidian's free Flanking 1 that hasn't been mentioned yet, it allows you to get Mobility with Baracks and Stable. I'm unsure how useful it is in practice as i've only done it on a large scale once or twice.
Well, I know Keshiks work great, so you might be on to something here.

It also won't necessarily be wasted on Cuirs, even if the Flanking II is generally less impressive on them.
 
I tend to avoid playing as Monty, but I've always more or less failed with keshik-style jag rush, and therefore never really rated them. Unless I have just been unlucky/incompetent, I guess I should just use them in a mixed stack and try to take advantage of them in a less simplistic way.
 
...on another note, jaguars are excellent, way better than you might think. Being able to move twice through forest is extremely powerful, especially in multiplayer.

I know that there are alot of people that love Jaguars on here.
Yes, Woods3 and Medic3 is a great combo, that Jags can get more easily than other units (1 promotion faster than other AGG leaders).

Consider a Jaguar with woods1 vs. Gallic Warior with Guerilla1 for a moment.
Both empires have AGG leaders, so, both have combat 1.
After each unit has 13xp (barracks +vass+Theo +anyGGs settled in city +barbs or AIs defeated) re-examine both units with similar promotions.
Jaguar(5 base atk): Woods1+2+3 +Combat1 +Shock = Good
Gallic Warrior(6 base atk): Woods1+2+3 +Combat1 +Shock + Guerilla1 = Better

Boudica's CHA trait will gain you xp faster to upgrade your UU swordsman, and you have a higher base strength. With one more promo, that Gallic gains Guerilla2 (or Combat2 as needed).
With another, it can gain Guerilla3 for a +50% withdrawl rate bonus.
The Gallic will have a greater range of 2 movement tiles, a better defense on either tile, and can gain level 3 in woods or hills promos, to compensate for an opponents tile defense.

If these two fight each other, I would prefer the Gallic Warrior, over the Jaguar, out in the field.
Something to consider.
 
13XP? You're hallucinating. You'll never get that much early on when they're still relevant.
I use them for early rushes- just build a barracks and start pumping them out. All you need is the 3XP from the barracks so they can get the woodsmen 2 double move. You can get a lot of quick kills in multiplayer that way, because it hits much faster and harder then anyone expects. In my last MP game, I was able to attack with 8 jags when the victim only had 2 archers in his capital to defend.

Yes you can do the same thing with gallic warriors, but 1) they cost more 2) they need a resource and 3) hills are less common than forests, and don't give as much defense
 
I gave him another unit to consider, with a higher base, and similar possibilities (actually more).
13 xp doesn't take that long to earn, and I did include a few battles vs. barbs or AIs to show him what his "Swordsman UU" could be, if a different empire was chosen.
 
Sure, but you're comparing apples and oranges. The jaguar isn't supposed to fight out in the open with other swordsmen. It's also not a power unit like a praetorian that can keep fighting for a long time, with high odds and gain high levels. It has three uses:
1)Early rush, with woodsmen 2
2)Early defense, if you don't have access to metal
3)A healer, with woodsmen 3 and medic after just 10 XP
The jag is better at all those roles than the gallic warrior. Although I agree, you can basically do them with the gallic warrior also. Your rush would come a bit later, but be a bit stronger.
 
Panzer-> I've never had tank vs tank battles.
Always tank vs unit that gets defensive bonuses.

Maybe on multiplayer, if you stack is counter attacked by enemy tanks....
And of course it comes so late.
The later it comes, the better it should be, since presumably you'd have had a lot more time to reap the reward from gains from an earlier UU.

Jaguar -> My play style is such that I want a good attacking unit.
Who cares if I have a good medic unit, if my units just outright die. I'm fine with UUs that are good stack defenders/defensive units (like the landsknecht), but the Swordsman is meant for taking enemy cities. Lowering the base strength to 5, means I might as well use axemen.
A UU unit that is normally used for city raiding, that has a reduced base strength (and lacks a proportionally higher city attack bonus), is crap IMO. I'd rather have Dog soldiers and Gaelic warriors over Jaguars.

Landsknecht-> Meh, Its the equal of Macemen, and good vs knights. not really that useful... My stacks would contain macemen anyway (my stacks outside cities are all for taking cities). I suppose it makes a good city defender, for a city facing large numbers of enemy units - as it is more versatile than Macemen (or is it? macemen fare better vs crossbowmen, if those are attacking you)

Gaelic - Its OK, only because I like Guerilla 3 so much, it is a city raider unit replacement, and the hardest cities to take are hilltop cities - which G3 helps a lot with, and the 50% withdraw helps taking any city. Better than Landsknecht and Jaguar IMO.

East Indiaman - This unit is great, I don't know what is with the haters...
So its a transport, so what? Before warlords and triremes, all naval units before Frigates were some form of transport.
It is the supreme Naval combat unit of its era - 6 strength, vs the galleons 4- thats a 50% combat advantage over any unit of the same tech level- these ships are great combat ships for smashing up enemy invasions, or plundering during war.
You can move units around without worrying too much about privateers - which is especially valuable if others have chemistry, but you don't (or if for some reason you have no iron for frigates).
Note that the Ship of the Line gets bonuses vs Frigates.
The indiaman, being cheaper, and not subjected to the 50% modifier, has better combat odds vs SOL, and is cheaper- making it the best anti SOL unit you have.
Privateers can also fill this role, but are higher in tech.
A galleon tech level unit forming your most effective anti SOL unit if you don't have SOL yourself- yea, its a good unit.
And then of course, it can pass through enemy territory, and has extra space.
This unit rocks on maps with multiple land masses - which goes well with the UB, and makes the netherlands Rock on archipelago-like maps.

Seal- March and free strikes combine well with my repeated shoreline attacks on adjacent cities that I often do to reduce enemy strength before actually taking the cities- but by that point I've won and am toying with the enemy (also, on speeds faster than marathon, the turn wastage of this is significant)- a "meh" unit, at least it doesn't obsolete- however, since the addition of Mobile artillery, its gotten worse.
It used to be a good stack defender against enemy artillery stacks (made better by its first strikes) - now in BTS there is mobile artillery-> higher base strength, and seals lose the 50% bonus they had vs artillery - Ie, seals got nerfed by BTS, they don't "obsolete" but they do become nigh useless in late tech levels.

Musketeer - Meh- faster stack reenforcement, and shifting of defensive units when a more powerful enemy declares war- useful, but no that great.

Numidian- I generally like free promo units (jaguar excepted)- high withdraw odds of flanking 2 - I ussually build a lot of these, the free promo sticks with them the whole game - if I built enough, and they stick around long enough to upgrade to fire strike immune high withdraw odds gunships, I think they certainly were worthwhile.



Suggestions for improvement:

Panzer - free Ambush promotion (and reduced the innate bonus), so at least its benefit stick around longer.
But that doesn't really help the fact that I don't need ambush on tanks (its good for defensive units though)
So, since tanks are used for blitzing, how about free first strikes -
Even better make it like an Oromo Warrior-Tank - Start it with free Drill I&II, so it can really attack 2x per turn with good odds, often, and stacks of them take less damage from enemy siege.
How great would panzers be if the innate +50 vs armored went away, and they had 3 free promos: Ambush, Drill1&2
Though that might make for OP modern armor, maybe it should be innate bonus+ first strike, rather than free promos

Landsknecht: increase base strength to 8, lower bonus vs mounted, melee to +50%?
But then this makes macemen useless (in reality, pikemen formation were the premier attack units, not "macemen").
Maybe do what BTS did to the phalanx- move it from an anti-mounted position(spearman), to a anti-melee(axemen) replacement with defense vs mounted.
Ie Lansknecht = Macemen UU, with +50% defense vs knights, or something like that.

Or.. Germanic pikemen formations (especially the Swiss, which were technically part of the HRE) were well drilled-> give them a free drill 1 promo? (hey, its better than nothing, and fits in with the extra training these units got in their era).

Musketeer-> Would go from "meh" to "YEA" if it instead got a free morale promotion-> imagine upgrading to 2 movement riflemen/infantry, and 3 movement mechanized infantry!

Seal-> take its 1-2 first strikes, and turn it into drill 1+2 (making the more powerful 3 and 4 promotions easier to get, and granting protection vs collateral damage).
Give it a +50% to +75% bonus vs mobile Artillery, so it can continue its role as a stack defender vs enemy artillery (or just give it a generic vs siege bonus, and get rid of the arty and machine gun specific bonus)
But even then its late, and still rather "meh"-> So I'd further fortify it with a free woodsman I, and guerilla I, to further improve its stack defense ability.

Jaguar-> change the +10% city attack to +25% city attack.

Ballista Elephant-> give it a 10% bonus vs war elephants, otherwise it is easily negated by an opponent using the non UU version of it
 
Top Bottom