So, USA, Danish students study and recieve universal grants for free.

Angst

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This is generally directed at America, but anyone can join in.

I've been very loud about this, but in case you didn't know:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_loans_in_Denmark

Danish students universally study for free and recieve compensation in the form of economical support from the state. They get paid to study. There are a couple of reasons for this, of which I will highlight three:

1. The socialist idealist's argument: Students are poor and need some support to survive. Most students have a job beside their SU to ensure luxuries: The SU ensures that every student can afford food, clothes, electricity and shelter. This is idealist ethics though and really doesn't matter much to me personally.

2. General pragmatism (This usually isn't mentioned when discussing the support and is therefore probably debunked rudely somewhere - It's my own view on things): It's compensation for several hours spent on "work" each day. The student is often aware that he's actually helping Denmark by educating himself to be more productive. A student isn't forced through primary school for his own good: Public education exists because the state should recognize the power in having an educated people. The supporting politicians recognize that an educated individual is not only beneficial to that individual, but also to the state. Therefore, incentive to study isn't that far-fetched.

3. It ideally saves time and provides for better results: When supported economically, students don't waste all of their time working when studying. When serving less people in the Danish supermarkets, students can read more books instead. Most students still work to gain connections, a proper resume as well as a means of affording luxuries.

Please also stay away from the 'no free lunch' argument - of course the students indirectly repay their support in the shape of higher taxes when they grow up. There's no reason to discuss semantics here. Talk values instead. Tell me why this is a bad idea.

What do you think about such a political stance?
What would you think of an American politician that suggested that students should recieve free student grants?
Why should the individual be punished (acquiring debt through student loans) for doing something the state shour prefer everybody doing (studying)?
 
What keeps a Danish student from moving to another EU country after he's graduated?
 
Tell me why this is a bad idea.

It encourages EVERYONE to go to college, when college isn't for everyone.

How much does this cost Denmark each year btw?

(I think it's a good idea overall, I just listed the one reason I could think of that you could use why it's a bad idea)
 
How many of your schools are the top in the world though?
 
What keeps a Danish student from moving to another EU country after he's graduated?

The fact that Denmark is a nice place to live actually helps a lot.

We have high social security with flexibility and support no matter how hard you fall, our country is peaceful with no nearby enemies and extremely little crime, there are possibilities within cultural or creative endeavours. Also, Danish people have a tendency to be very proud of where they come from and have a strong national tradition: Your home country brings you comfort.

Other than that, nothing really. That's the downside of the system. :)

It encourages EVERYONE to go to college, when college isn't for everyone.

How do you know that there isn't a larger subsection stupid people that are only stupid because they did not have access to proper schools?

How much does this cost Denmark each year btw?
I don't recall and don't have statistics on my hands. My guess, however, would be that it

It has been discussed some in the current recession, since the state has to make budget cuts.

(I think it's a good idea overall, I just listed the one reason I could think of that you could use why it's a bad idea)
Well, there's the international globalization aspect of it.

How many of your schools are the top in the world though?

How well educated is the average Dane compared to the average American?
 
How many of your schools are the top in the world though?

Would socialized higher education in America dilute the utility of the Ivy League schools?
 
Would socialized higher education in America dilute the utility of the Ivy League schools?

No, but a lot of our public institutions make that list, so it would be pretty expensive to keep it up.
 
Please also stay away from the 'no free lunch' argument - of course the students indirectly repay their support in the shape of higher taxes when they grow up. There's no reason to discuss semantics here. Talk values instead. Tell me why this is a bad idea.

This seems tricky to me. For example, the average Danish yearly wages are roughly (very slightly higher) than my own American city. I understand the larger Danish cities probably have higher wages then the entire country by itself, but I doubt it's by enough to make my point moot - the cost of living in Denmark is quite a bit higher than it is here. I'm looking at this website here and if these prices are to be believed, it's no wonder Danish kids can't afford to go to college; most of those prices are at least twice of what you would pay here. So obviously American kids have more money to pay for college, which is important for the rest of my post (and yes, this does have to do with actual values).

What do you think about such a political stance?

I'm not an expert on Denmark, but I assume the taxes are fairly high there. The taxes in my state are all under 10% according to this website. I'm looking and I can't find what Danish taxes are (although I didn't search hard), but I'm just going to assume that they're high. I'm going to assume here that this means that the Danish government takes a lot more money than my North Carolina government does, and the Danish government should because they provide these things.

Now for my stance - I really don't care. Denmark can get away with it because of it's high taxes, and because of it's high taxes and prices the students can't buy their way into schools the same way American students can. American students have more money to 'spend' because of our lower taxes and our lower prices, but we have to pay for college. So American students don't have to pay 'more' to get a college education because Danish students already have to pay more because of the cost of living there. My thesis: Either way the same result happens - pay money, get education. As long as that happens, I really don't care which way it is.


What would you think of an American politician that suggested that students should recieve free student grants?

An American politician would have to raise taxes quite a bit in order to do what Denmark is doing, but the same result happens, so it doesn't matter to me.

Why should the individual be punished (acquiring debt through student loans) for doing something the state shour prefer everybody doing (studying)?

I'll answer this later, if I feel like it. I was looking for some data but it's taking some time and I really don't care that much.
 
I'm asking in honesty.

How exactly would you quantify that?

Here are some numbers from Wikipedia, though I doubt they answer that question all that much.

Wikishmedia said:
According to UNESCO[2] the US has the second largest number of higher education institutions in the world, with a total of 5,758, an average of more than 115 per state. The US also has the 2nd[3] highest number of higher education students in the world, a figure of 14,261,778,[4] or roughly 4.75% of the total population. The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), an office of the US Department of Education, stated in 2010 that there are 4,495 Title IV-eligible, degree-granting institutions (including colleges, universities, and junior colleges) in the country.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_in_the_United_States

While in Denmark, I count 25 institutions of higher education. The other article about education in Denmark is a paragraph about universities, and the rest dominated by the tuition thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Denmark

Given the number of universities you have, it kinda makes sense how you can afford free tuition for all.
 
I'm not an expert on Denmark, but I assume the taxes are fairly high there. The taxes in my state are all under 10% according to this website. I'm looking and I can't find what Danish taxes are (although I didn't search hard), but I'm just going to assume that they're high.

You can pay as much as 50% in taxes, or just about. Don't remember the exact numbers.

Also, I assume that, after going through some numbers, Danish students still have more purchasing power than the average American student - although I have to say it's just guesswork, and I'm not sure it has any relation to this distribution of income at all - enlighten me if I'm wrong with my guesswork, but whilst not being sure, I still assume the grants allow Danish students to make a better living. Make me sure in any direction, anyone.
 
How exactly would you quantify that?

Here are some numbers from Wikipedia, though I doubt they answer that question all that much.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_education_in_the_United_States

While in Denmark, I count 25 institutions of higher education. The other article about education in Denmark is a paragraph about universities, and the rest dominated by the tuition thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Denmark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Denmark

Given the number of universities you have, it kinda makes sense how you can afford free tuition for all.

There are approx. 55,000 people per university in the US and 224,000 people per university in Denmark, so if all universities were publicly funded, the Danish would have it easier affording the costs. :)

Spending time online, I found a much better source for your argument, though:

http://www.aneki.com/university_students.html

This is a much better measurement of national education if going by third degree education.

But I'd prefer if you'd answer my questions more directly. You have a because, but not a postulate. I want the postulate directly to know what you are getting at. :) I have a pretty heavy hunch, but please specify!
 
How do *you* know that there is? :p

I don't. But I'm an idealist: I want to and do believe that people are generally smarter and friendlier than currently socialized, positioned, wanting and appearing to be.
 
I want to add to lord_joakim's stance.

If you fear that educated students will not pay back the money by moving to another country, then just tax their foreign income anyway. Taxing citizens in foreign countries is not a new concept and if they refuse to pay, then it's quite easy to apply consequences on the students who move away and refuse to pay despite having the ability to, just like any tax evasion attempts. Extradite them, freeze their local assets, arrest them if they ever return home and convict them and if all fails, make their parents pay.
 
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