Soapboxing?

[Bezhukov]

What Sirian said. One shudders to think of how many geniuses through the ages have toiled away in similar obscurity. Our loss.

As a bright-eyed young congressman, Al Gore was in fact instrumental in securing funding for DARPA, which became the Internet. That his mind became one of the many casualties of the resultant flood of information does not change this fact. His picture in CivIV is nonetheless a joke at his, and truth's, expense.

The only concern I have along these lines is the Civ series fondness for Communism, or at least a lack of awareness of its venality and destructiveness. History teaches that Communism starves people, by the millions; to have it produce more food in Civ IV is a sick joke. Maybe in Civ V we'll have a Racism tech/civic that boosts diplomacy. Sid and friends should know better. And while they're at it, they can quit calling the founding fathers of the most liberal country in history fascists.

 

[HawkeyeGS]

Gee I must have been away the day we read that book in history. I admit that communism has its faults and can be a bit oppressive but there is little difference in capitalism only the result is acheived via different means. I know a lot of devout capitalists and communists will despute that but I (neither of the 2) believe that we as a whole need to get past this whole left-right, commie-capitalist, con-liberal attitudte and focus at the job at hand. That job is (for governments) to simply serve its people maintain order and for every one else all they have to do is vote for someone who will do this without imposing far winged ideals on his/her people. I would think that if Civ taught people anything it was that you adopt civics (state property, free market, nationalism or free speech) to further advance your country and ensure security for the populace. The majority of people in this thread have ignored this message and simply act like the annoying Izzy or Saladin who constantly demand you change your civics which 99% of the time have minimal impact upon them. Whats the line I always say "You must learn to accept our differences".

If you want to have that amount of control over people mod Civ to end at 1500AD instead of 2050 and let loose for a few days. When you are finished you can rejoin the modern era.

 

[Bezhukov]

"believe that we as a whole need to get past this whole left-right, commie-capitalist, con-liberal attitudte"

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We do indeed need to get past the left-right, con-liberal silliness, or at least make some attempt to understand what they mean and where they come from. But there are tens of millions slaughtered by Communism in this past century, and hundreds of millions who still do not enjoy the freedom you so blithely take for granted who will be on your conscience if you forget that particular history.

Talk to someone who's lived it before offering your pronouncements from on high.

 

[HawkeyeGS]

First it was millions and now its tens of millions. Now I wonder why there are confused billions out there?

As for freedom I have never seen any proof that any form of economic ideal has "slaughtered" anyone. Sure some communists have been corrupt and have put certain state intrests such as military well ahead of the state interest in fighting poverty. As history has taught us this is not the utopian society idealisted by Lennon or Marx.

On the other hand the US has one of the largest rates of homeless per capita in a developed county. At least the CEO of every major company will go home to a juicy meal.

The problems in the world do not come from the ideals themselves but a poor execution of them by governments or governments putting their legacies before the lives of their people. At the end of the day it is easy to blame the left or the right for suffering in the world. Hell it saves us from having to blame ourselves. I have never gone hungry or suffered any trial that would compare to those of some. I guess by the fact you are on these forums neither have any of you but I imagine if you are starving the last thing that would enter your head would be "dam commies" or "dam capitalists".

If restraining from offering my "pronouncements from on high" would feed 1 person I would. Since it wouldn't I will have a go at it by having my say. I would urge everyone to do the same. After all debate and democracy go hand in hand. I just hope that all this democracy and debate will yeild the right decision in the end. What that is I cannot say without the masses saying it with me.

 

[Sidhe]

I'm a genius, I toil can I have some recognition now? no..... ok then I'll be over here if anyone needs me

 

[King Jason]

Overly sensitive.

 

[troytheface]

i'll throw some fuel into the fire...most cubans like Castro- he took away all the land from foreign companies and gave it back to the people.
If u are poor and on the "outs" than it is not a bad thing- of course having seen dictatorships in certain parts of the world i would say that they all share one thing in common- they tend to keep the people uneducated in order to hold the power (Saudi Arabi comes to mind- keep em dumb and throw in a tad of religion)
(this coupled with having their women a non part of the desicion making equation-cutting 1/2 of ur nation's intellectual base can't help )

 

[Sidhe]

Actually many government types biggest fear is education and that includes some democracies; after all if people were to become better educated than the government that represents them it might become a tad harder to lie and delude them. Does anyone actually believe that the primary motivation to invade Iraq was the overthrow of Sadam Hussein, a case in point.

 

[HawkeyeGS]

I agree completely the major example being the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages. It was only after the printing press and the Gutenburg Bible (first book printed) being written in German the people could understand (the church Bible was in Latin) did people question the authority of the Church. We all remember Snowball and Nepolian (the pigs) were smarter than the other animals.

 

[AngryPants]

First it was millions and now its tens of millions. Now I wonder why there are confused billions out there?

As for freedom I have never seen any proof that any form of economic ideal has "slaughtered" anyone. Sure some communists have been corrupt and have put certain state intrests such as military well ahead of the state interest in fighting poverty. As history has taught us this is not the utopian society idealisted by Lennon or Marx.

On the other hand the US has one of the largest rates of homeless per capita in a developed county. At least the CEO of every major company will go home to a juicy meal.

Oh, I just can't stop myself. Ok, here goes:
1. There is a reason billions are confused: There are 6 billion people on this planet, exactly half of them have below median IQs.
2. Communism IS corruption and slaughter. Everywhere it has been implemented this has been the case. Lenin, Stalin, and Mao had absolute power for decades and were true believers. They couldn't make it work, for the simple reason that communism doesn't work. The Berlin Wall fell over a decade ago, I can't believe people are still arguing about this. BTW Lennon was the lead singer for the Beatles.
3. Yes, we in the US have lots of homeless. However, this is not the result of our economic policy. The vast majority of the homeless are mentally ill or drug addicts or drunks or some combination of the 3. If you don't believe me, come to Atlanta and I'll walk from City Hall(drunks passed out on the front steps 24/7, i kid you not) to Ted Turner Field. You can't even call them beggars anymore, since they don't even ask anymore, they just yell "Gimme a dolla!". I'd like to see the mentally ill people get better, but under our legal system we can't make them take their medication, even in jail. No economic system can employ the unemployable.
4. The CEO does go home to a juicy meal, as does the mid level manager, and the janitor in the same company. You can really judge capitalism and communism just by comparing the average grocery store in each system.

 

[Xenocrates]

Chamberlain, the Tories and the US didn't stand up to Hitler because they didn't want to reduce the probability of war.

Russia was the enemy in WW2 (let's be honest) and we were prepared to stomach the holocaust etc to make sure that the rapidly improving Russians were tied up in a war. You think that makes Chamberlain a liberal?

They expected a WW1 type war and underestimated the speed with which the Germans would progress. Same story with Iran and Iraq (and every one of my Civ games ever!).

 

[troytheface]

China under communism met their program to be able to feed all of their people. Cuba was able to field armies in Africa-
Communism is corruption and failure? Lets see- who on the European Continent was able to beat hitler...Democratic Belgium ? hmmm how about Democratic France?
Marx- "u are what u do "
plato - "u do what u are "
one is twentieth century thinking. Go out some night to a bar and listen - "what do u do?" is much more prevelant a question than "What are u?
Other modern nations do not have homeless because they have health care provided for their citizens. The reason the mentally ill are in the streeets is not because they have the right to not take medicine- rather they do not have the money or are not qualified (sick enough in the eyes of gov) to stay in institutions.

 

[Padma]

Moderator Action: Thread closed. I think I read maybe half-a-dozen posts that actually had something to do with Civ4. If you want to discuss/argue politics, feel free to visit our Off Topic forum
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889