Social Engineering

[woodelf]

Since I love to make new threads...

I need to load SMAC up again soon, but off the top of my head the parameters that could be affected by SE are:

1) ECONOMY
2) EFFICIENCY
3) SUPPORT
4) MORALE
5) POLICE
6) GROWTH
7) PLANET
8) PROBE
9) INDUSTRY
10) RESEARCH

With CivIV civics there is a never ending list of things that get changed, including:

commerce
research
culture
happiness
health
war weariness
trade routes
ect

The challenge will be to balance out each SE entry so that they aren't too good, but can also be balanced via another entry in another column.

Are we in agreement about 5 columns or do we need more?

I'm going to reserve a post for each colum so we can effectively balance them since I agree with Rubin that this is a very important part of the mod.

 

[woodelf]

reserved for column1, Politics?

 

[woodelf]

reserved for column2, Economics?

 

[woodelf]

reserved for column3, Values

 

[woodelf]

reserved for column4, Future Society

 

[woodelf]

and column5, Civcs or extra?

 

[Rubin]

Haha, woodelf, I think it may be a little too early to decide on these detail, but... oh well, here we go:

SMAC/X operates with 10 parameters:

1) ECONOMY
2) EFFICIENCY
3) SUPPORT
4) MORALE
5) POLICE
6) GROWTH
7) PLANET
8) PROBE
9) INDUSTRY
10) RESEARCH

These parameters are reflected in both the Social Engineering table and each faction's traits and is a very important part of gameplay and strategic approach.

In Social Engineering the parameter values are spread out in groups of 3 or 4 parameters in a 4x4 grid: Politics, Economics, Values, and Future Society; each with 4 choices.

Each faction is unique in that each has a different preset set of parameter values.

For a Civ-styled mod I think GROWTH and SUPPORT are parameters that conflict with gameplay. However, I have a strong feeling that someone here other than me already has a detailed suggestion on what kind of parameters we need and how it should affect gameplay. Let's see...

We have the option to have the values change game mechanics in the same way that we adjust research and culture in Civ4 (percentages); but we can also allow for SMAC/X like adjustments (non-percentages, see spoiler).

Spoiler :

#SOCMORALE
-4, -3 Morale; + modifiers halved
-3, -2 Morale; + modifiers halved
-2, -1 Morale; + modifiers halved
-1, -1 Morale
0, Normal Morale
1, +1 Morale
2, +1 Morale (+2 on defense)
3, +2 Morale! (+3 on defense)
4, +3 Morale!!

Note on Civ4 options:

With just 7 factions (determined by at set of parameter values) we are able to add several new leaders with unique traits (as seen in Civ4, NOT parameter values). This would allow for "clone" factions and making it much easier to have a larger number of leaders to play (huge 18 player games, for example).

In combination with the Social Engineering we may choose to add a single "civics" column that does not affect any of these preset parameters. This need may arise if we absolutely must have the option to change some of the parameter independent mechanics.

 

[woodelf]

It might be too early, but I find it hard sitting around and doing nada. I need to find something to contribute so I'm trying to pick areas where we need some XML work down just to be able to test out the mod.

A 4x4 grid with a "Civics" column at the end sounds like a good starting place. I've got some stuff to do, but I'll be thinking about this.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I would advocate a 5x5 civics grid plus resulting SE column displaying results of civics combinations and traits. Each civics will provide bonus/malus toward one or more categories. In addition, we can give to civic particular advantages not reflected in the SE column.

 

[Rubin]

I would advocate a 5x5 civics grid plus resulting SE column displaying results of civics combinations and traits. Each civics will provide bonus/malus toward one or more categories. In addition, we can give to civic particular advantages not reflected in the SE column.

Are you talking about "civics" (as in parameter independent choices) or "social engineering"?

If you are talking about "civics" I think we should decide on which system to use before discussing any kind of content (this includes a hybrid system or something entirely different).

If you are talking about "Social Engineering" what is your reasoning behind the 5x5 grid?

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

English is so subtle, I'm French you know ... and it's heavy handicap toward languages.
I'm considering that Wealth, Democratic or Eudaimonic are civics ( it is translated "doctrines" in french ) and each civics affects some of the ten parameters of Social Engineering . If I'm wrong with the terms, I will amend myself and go along with the majority.
I'm asking for 5x5 because of storylines I plan to bring in the future. It will be helpfull inn that matter. And I didn't tell anything about how it should work.

 

[Rubin]

snipperrabbit!!, I am sorry if my wording came out harsh.

Regarding the 5x5 grid, I suggest--if possible--we code the 4x4 grid (or whatever we decide upon) to allow for future additions (modding).

A "result" or "total" column is a good idea.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I've read differences you explained in another thread and my position is SE with a little bit of civics.

 

[woodelf]

SMAC/X like adjustments work for me, as well as total column. I think that would be a neat addition. Can it be done? Can we use the civics screen to do a SE/civics hybrid?

I'm updating the first post with Rubin's correct categories from SMAC/X.

 

[woodelf]

I finally have had a light bulb moment about SE's, maybe. I think we're definitely going to have to do some sort of hybrid with civics and them. I'm in the process of trying to find CivIV fields to correspond to the 10 SMAC/X SE categories. There are also going to be some unused CivIV fields that I feel need to be used which we'll have to discuss. These hybrids will also tie into new traits that we'll have to formulate to describe each faction accurately. I think this system will do a super job!

 

[Rubin]

I finally have had a light bulb moment about SE's, maybe. I think we're definitely going to have to do some sort of hybrid with civics and them. I'm in the process of trying to find CivIV fields to correspond to the 10 SMAC/X SE categories. There are also going to be some unused CivIV fields that I feel need to be used which we'll have to discuss. These hybrids will also tie into new traits that we'll have to formulate to describe each faction accurately. I think this system will do a super job!

Oh! I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

 

[woodelf]

Oh! I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with!

Heh, so long as I don't succeed in pissing off both the pure civics and pure SE folks!!!

 

[Gerikes]

Heh, so long as I don't succeed in pissing off both the pure civics and pure SE folks!!!

::gets his torch and pitchfork ready::

 

[Rubin]

When can we expect the results of your "light bulb moment", woodelf?

 

[woodelf]

It's dimming...

There are a lot of hurdles to making civics work like SE as I'm finding. The biggest is whether or not a "total" column can be implemented. Without that the effects of each choice will not be added together for one big change, but will be a collection of individual changes. This isn't a deal breaker, but it won't be SMAC-like really. Also, there are the 10 values that can be changed in SMAC/X, but in CivIV there must be 50 to play with. They aren't all applicable to a direct conversion to SMAC/X either and some are too good to be left out IMO as well. I'll list the 10 SMAC/X values that Rubin found for me and then what I'm tentatively thinking about using from CivIV after a brief dinner break.