Software piracy: What do you think about it?

[Hitro]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe
What i do is illegal in israel just like in canada :rolleyes

Still it is not wrong. You don't do any harm to anyone by pirating software that you wouldn't be able to buy anyway.
crashu's OS for more than one computer argument is also good.
So how can anyone say "wrong in any case"?

P.S.: I guess R. III was sarcastic...

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by Hitro

Still it is not wrong. You don't do any harm to anyone by pirating software that you wouldn't be able to buy anyway.
crashu's OS for more than one computer argument is also good.
So how can anyone say "wrong in any case"?

I don't think anyone has an inherent right to use software. Just because they can't afford it doesn't make pirating it any less wrong. I don't think that using an OS that you only have one license for on multiple computers to be a necessarily bad thing or one that software developers really care about. The problem would occur when you have, say, a laptop for your work that comes with a copy of Windows XP and then you also install it on your home computer.

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by IceBlaZe


And you tell me where I get funding for Office XP and/or Windows XP?
What about a program like Maya?
A friend of mine is very talented in it... but he doesn't have no ten thousand dollars.
I also don't have extra cash to spend on visual c++, but what if I do want to program visual c++?

And myself... you really think I can fund myself photoshop?
No way, but I still use it, a lot.

I'm not really sure what your point is. I assume you are saying that "not all software is that cheap".

My suggestions:

1.) Take a course at a local college or similar - Microsoft gives massive discounts to anyone with a student ID. I got visual studio for around $NZ1000 I think (about $US 500). Visual C++ on its own was only around $US 200.

2.) Get the upgrade packs to windows XP and Office XP. You should still be able to get a student discount.

3.) Get your work to buy it for you. If you get a job as a programmer, you will obviously be given access to the software.




Sorry, but software piracy has no excuse that holds any water.

"I couldn't afford to buy a car, so I went to the Ford factory and stole one. Its their fault for making their cars so expensive".

 

[Dell19]

Originally posted by ainwood
"I couldn't afford to buy a car, so I went to the Ford factory and stole one. Its their fault for making their cars so expensive".

What about you test drived a car to see what it was like and since you liked it, you brought it. If you don't like it then you can just not use it again. The point here is that quite alot of games come with limited demos that really don't show much about the game so you could download the game instead to see whether you like it. Then buy it if you like it.

 

[ainwood]

Originally posted by Dell19


What about you test drived a car to see what it was like and since you liked it, you brought it. If you don't like it then you can just not use it again. The point here is that quite alot of games come with limited demos that really don't show much about the game so you could download the game instead to see whether you like it. Then buy it if you like it.

Yeah, but thats a problem with the demo - it still doesn't justify stealing. A test drive of a car doesn't really let you experience the full abilities either.

And how many people download a game, play the full version and then think "oh, now that I've played the full version for free, I like it and I'll happily fork over my money".

Don't some stores actually allow you to return games if you play them and don't like them?

 

[Dell19]

PH says he does follow this principle...

Some sotres alloow you to return games but others may not. Some will only give you store credit, so you have to buy another game instead and you may not want to buy another game.

 

[BlueMonday]

I was just thinking, where do you all draw the line on piracy?

Because for me, I used to draw it as dl'ing games, movies, and the like, but I always considered dl-ing mp3s as OK. Since the day I bought my first computer, I've been downloading MP3s and never had a second thought about it. That's all changed now, of course, because I don't think there is a difference between downloading a song and downloading a game (that is, they are both equally wrong). They're both for your own personal use, they're both not being resold, and they're both keeping someone from collecting money on that object.

If one of the two is right, then the other is right also. And if one is wrong, then all forms of jakking are wrong.

 

[Richard III]

Blue Monday, I don't know how many of us have to say it, but in my view it's all wrong. It's not that complicated. I use the shoplift theory: if someone put it out for sale, and its available to the public only on the understanding that someone will pay for it, and you don't pay for it, it's theft. Not too complicated.

I had my chat with Hitro because I do believe that there are things that companies and governments can do to reduce the desire to steal.

At one extreme, I think "guard dog" viruses should be legal - e.g. if I go into morpheus to pick up something that has a "copyright" warning, the company has a right to chase me off by torpedoing the snot out of the software that made my search and seizure possible. (Obviously, the mechanics of this need to be carefully worked out)

But the other (more friendly, "woof woof!") extreme is convincing companies to do things like Hitro asked, e.g. reduce the feeling that IP is not a real product by doing more to sell it like a real product. A big part of that would be (a) legislated consumer protection standards for buggy software (e.g. company liability if bugs are not consistent with advertised product) and (b) increased opportunities for retail "look and see," testing and so on to remove the complaint that you can't know what it is until you buy it.

R.III

 

[vonork]

In Sweden it’s actually legal to download mp3 and movies. You can even copy them to your friends. So that could make sharing legal, but I’m not sure about that.

About software, I wish it was possible to rent them. Cuz I have now downloaded 3dstudio, now I haven’t used it so mush and I don’t know if I will, but I wanted to try it out and see how it was. Demos aren’t that useful and buying it, well it’s too costly to me so I downloaded it. A crime, yes I think so but if I come to use the program a lot I will probably by it – now if I could not download it I would not know if I like it and defiantly not by it.

Back to CD and mp3, now if it was not legal for me to download mp3 I would still do it. Why?

1. Singles go out of print, then you can’t by them anymore – so I download.
2. Old CD go out of print so I download
3. They don’t release singles and cd worldwide so I download.

Now they could fix this and have me buy the cd and singles if they only could provide them for me. I don’t think they can blame me for downloading when I can’t buy the record, and by the way it’s legal in Sweden

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

How about making older versions of software free once the newer one comes out?

Once, say, Pagemaker 7 has come out, the company could provide 6 (and even older versions) for free. This would take care of the economically disadvantaged who want to learn to use a program to get into a profession, or those who just want to see what it's like. This would be almost as good as the 'test-drive' solution, because you'd have the program clean and free forever. Surely an older version can be used for learning & trial purposes just as well as this year's version.

If you like it, or need it professionally, you'll naturally want to upgrade by buying the newer version. If the older version is crap, you'll switch to another company's product. THe above example is what happened to me--I installed my buddy's Pagemaker 6, found that it was really useful for my purposes and easy to use, so as soon as 7 was out I went out and bought it. And, like most computer users out there I'm unlikely to switch to another program now simply because I just don't have the patience to go through the learning curve again. I know PM, and I'm happy with it. I'm sure I'll upgrade to 8 when that's out.

Of course everyone wants this year's Ford, but if we could get a 2001 for free, we'd jump on the chance. If it turns out that we really prefer Fords, and the new one has a feature we really want, we'd be far more willing to buy it then.

Civ III is the same--I'd guess most of us bought it rather than pirated it, no matter how we originally got our hands on Civs I or II. Why? Because the originals were good quality, and we knew that III would most likely be as well.

 

[damunzy]

I don't believe that selling warez is right. I don't believe that using warez is 'technically" right. I have to admit that I do use warez and I allow others to get it from me. I have purchased software that I DLed before, the one that pops to mind is Wizardry 8 ($50 USD and also the tip book). There are a few other programs that I have slotted for purchase and one of them includes Windows XP as I feel that it or 2000 are worth the money. I try to use mostly freeware but sometimes that is not possible. When I use shareware I do not use key generators but deal with the annoying popups when I go over the allowed dates. One day I will buy WinZip....

I am glad that stormerne and I live an ocean away, although I don't know that I use a program that he has made....


As to the argument of software being equated to a material possession like a car, they are not the same thing. The car will eventually be sold while the software is a bunch of ones and zeros. Each copy of the car made costs more money, not true with illegal copies of programs floating around. Those copies didn't directly cost the company any money (this is talking about people that have used the warez that wouldn't have purchased the program otherwise. The warez sellers are a different point and so are the companies that use illegal software because they need it but do not pay for it to save money).

goodbye_mr_bond said:
How about making older versions of software free once the newer one comes out?

Microsoft does something very similar to this. The have versions of their Visual Studio components out for cheap prices. I picked up a legal copy of Visual C++ 4 for $30 a few years ago. I believe that they have VC++ 6 out now that VC .Net is coming out. Unfortunately not all companies do this. I also don't understand MS's new copyright protection scheme, they are only going to reduce their user base since most people, IMHGuess, will not pony up the money to upgrade their old computers. Hell, most people have a hard enough time upgrading, why would they want to play to do it?

Richard III said:
At one extreme, I think "guard dog" viruses should be legal - e.g. if I go into morpheus to pick up something that has a "copyright" warning, the company has a right to chase me off by torpedoing the snot out of the software that made my search and seizure possible. (Obviously, the mechanics of this need to be carefully worked out)

I think this is a good idea. I say go as far as completely screwing the illegal user's computer up....but then the copyright protection is no where accurate enough...look at the problems that legal user of Civ3 have...some still can't play Civ3! Imagine if Infogrames also bombed their computer.

My question....is using warez more of a problem with the individual user (MS's new activation targets the individual as the corporate version doesn't need to be activated), the businesses (paying for 20 licenses but upgrading 100 computers) or are both equal in the damage done to the software industry?

 

[BlueMonday]

"Gaurd dog" viruses would only work on warez n00bs. The veterans and people who populate the forums, private hubs, ftps, and distros would have the software cracked a day after it's inception. It would fall short in it's attempt to slow up internet priacy because it would only succeed in nabbing little Johonny's first MP3 download...all the rest of us would have defeated the software on our machines.

I think the only real possibility to slow up internet piracy would be so called "policeware" -hardware integrated ROM to be included in newly sold electronics. Some Senators here in America are writing a bill right now that would not only make it legal, but make it mandatory in all new hardware. I doubt this will ever make it into law. For one thing, they can't even get it our of subcomitee, much less convince a Senate majority or the Oval Office to put it into effect. Even if they could, I doubt the supreme court would allow it into law as it essentially amounts to a 24/7 search warrant on every piece of electronic equipment in America.

This site a little bit biased, but you should take a look at it:

>>http://www.stoppoliceware.org/

 

[damunzy]

I am against what the gov't is trying to mandate. Stealing this saying from another poster "It is like trying to kill a fly witha 2x4". I caouldn't see myself buying anythign but black martket computers and software after that happens as I want to be able to backup the CDs and games (which are hard enough to back up as it is) I have purchased.

The Civ3 copyright protection steams me. I have paid for the damn thing....the only thing the copyright protection has caused me to do since I have lost my CD is use an alternate means to playing it.

 

[scorch]

I DL music all the time, if the bands good, i will buy their CD (when i get the money ). Try before you buy.


Microsoft = Pirate, who the **** would pay $1000 for some software?

I pretty much pirate all my stuff, coz im too poor to buy it anyway, so its not like they are gonna get any money anyway.

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by PaleHorse76
As to the argument of software being equated to a material possession like a car, they are not the same thing. The car will eventually be sold while the software is a bunch of ones and zeros. Each copy of the car made costs more money, not true with illegal copies of programs floating around. Those copies didn't directly cost the company any money (this is talking about people that have used the warez that wouldn't have purchased the program otherwise. The warez sellers are a different point and so are the companies that use illegal software because they need it but do not pay for it to save money).

I agree that the software/car analogy is flawed. Here is another, perhaps, better one: Let's say you own a ski resort. Normal ticket prices range from $45-60. A lot of people find that to be an outrageous price to pay and will therefore try to "avoid" paying for a ticket by manufacturing a fake ticket on their own. Note that this is almost impossible to do these days at bigger, American resorts, but it was easy to do 10-15 years ago; I'm just trying to make an analogy. Now, one person doing this and "stealing" the services of the ski resort won't hurt you as the resort owner, just as one person pirating a piece of software won't hurt the developer.

But what happens when more people start to do it? Pretty soon you've got a bunch of skiers on your mountain who haven't paid for it. This will cost you extra money and adversely affect revenues. A lot of people are going to use the excuse that they can't afford to pay for a lift ticket, but does that justify the theft? Again, why do people justify software piracy by using the cost excuse? It certainly explains it, I just don't think it makes it right.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by scorch
Microsoft = Pirate, who the **** would pay $1000 for some software?

So build it yourself.

 

[Daaraa]

I wouldn't even be here if it weren't for downloading or copying. I copied a version of civ2 and played it for a while. I then went out and bought it. I feel ok about what I did. I just hate buying something full price and not liking it and yu can't return it if the "plastic wrap" is off the box. I bought a game back in 1996. It sucked. I havn't played it since. I wasted $40.

Do I download music? Certain ones. I did a WW2 collection of old songs for my grandpa for Christmas. He loves it! I could not find any of those songs at any music stores for a 100 mile radius. Do I feel bad about what I did? Absolutly not. Would I do it again? You bet I would. Given the same type of situation.

Do I download current music? I download, listen, delete and then buy. I guess in this instance I am spending more because I can try-first-pay-later.

I don't download anything else.

Most of my copied software is all out of "print" stuff like KOEI PC games for example.

My OS is purchased. My business programs are purchased.

In a nutshell, I think there should be more "trial period" type programs to try then buy. I copied civ 2. I then bought civ 2, SMAC, ToT and Civ3. I don't think I would have ever bought any of those without copying civ2. And I'm glad I did what I did.

 

[damunzy]

Originally posted by NY Hoya


I agree that the software/car analogy is flawed. Here is another, perhaps, better one: Let's say you own a ski resort. Normal ticket prices range from $45-60. A lot of people find that to be an outrageous price to pay and will therefore try to "avoid" paying for a ticket by manufacturing a fake ticket on their own. Note that this is almost impossible to do these days at bigger, American resorts, but it was easy to do 10-15 years ago; I'm just trying to make an analogy. Now, one person doing this and "stealing" the services of the ski resort won't hurt you as the resort owner, just as one person pirating a piece of software won't hurt the developer.

But what happens when more people start to do it? Pretty soon you've got a bunch of skiers on your mountain who haven't paid for it. This will cost you extra money and adversely affect revenues. A lot of people are going to use the excuse that they can't afford to pay for a lift ticket, but does that justify the theft? Again, why do people justify software piracy by using the cost excuse? It certainly explains it, I just don't think it makes it right.

I know you are trying, and this is closer but once again it is flawed.
The lift costs money to operate, a one time cost for the building of the lift plus maintainence costs which go up as more people ride it. The land costs money a one time cost to buy the land plus upkeep which gets more expensive as more people use the area. The facilities (bathrooms, benches, etc.) have a one time cost and an upkeep cost that increases as more people use them. Having people on the site that are not paying means the paying customer has a longer wait on the lift and there is more crowding leading to a less entertaining time leading to some paying customers that will not come back. Warez that is used by people that would never pay for the software in the first place doesn't hurt the company that produced it and might actually be helpful to the company. Winzip is used on a lot of computers and is still not registered....why is this good for Niko Mak (the maker of WinZip)? Because people get used to the program and go to work and demand that (some companies actually listen to their employees, it's true!) software over some other brand.

I maintain that businesses are the ones that hurt software developers the most. I will say that individuals that constantly use programs like WinZip and don't pay are just as guilty as the businesses I point my finger at (although WinZip does charge more than I think that their product is worth since most people rarely use it....and might be why so many people don't pay).

correction: It seems as if I was wrong about WinZip being owned by Niko Mak. Strangely the name of the company is: WinZip Computing, Inc. Who would have thunk it? Does anyone know if it usedto be Niko Mak or something similar? I swear that it used to be.....

To recap:
Extra costs incurred by people using the lift that wouldn't have paid for it if they couldn't get in for free:
1) upkeep of lift
2) upkeep of land
3) upkeep of facilities
4) possibly driving away paying customers b/c of crowding
Extras costs incurred by people using wazez that they wouldn't have paid for if they couldn't have gotten it for free:
1) can't think of one.....
The ways that people that individuals that don't pay for software can help the maker of software:
1) increase the demand for that particular brand of software or piece of software

 

[GenghisK]

I'm not and have never been involved in any form of piracy. I have never ever downloaded any illegal software. I'm as pure as cristal.

 

[BlueMonday]

Originally posted by GenghisK
I'm not and have never been involved in any form of piracy. I have never ever downloaded any illegal software. I'm as pure as cristal.

Well, I guess somebody didn't sleep through ethics class.