Software Piracy

[bky1701]

nm......................

 

[bky1701]

EDIT: I guess being called "simple-minded" just stuck in my craw.

Apologies.

Not that that’s aimed at anyone here… but it is aimed at a number of people in general.

It was a rant over people that are not even on this forum. Sorry for any misconnections as to who it was meant for, I didn’t even read any posts other then the first post before replying.

 

[Siggy19]

Piracy is theft.

There is no way that it can be anything else, although some (misguided) people believe in common-ownership of everything and so may disagree with the concept of 'theft'.

However, just because Piracy is wrong, does not mean that a lack of piracy would be entirely good.

Although developers claim that Piracy costs them money, there is not a single example that I know of where reducing the piracy has reduced the price. Instead, if Piracy is reduced, the price tends to go up... witness the cost of Microsoft Windows XP compared with Win 98 (for example).

Also, SOME users of Pirated software do so to remove the copy protection that otherwise interferes with their use of the software that they have already paid for (for example, some laptops do not have internal CD Drives and so the external drive needs to be lugged around even if it is only needed to start the game).

In most cases, the Pirates are simple thieves however. Even if they claim to pay for games that are worth it after they have tried them out, I doubt that they often actually do so.

I do not like the idea of eternal 'pay as you play', where you get charged $1 every time you play the game, but if there is a limit (say $50), this actually sounds fair to me... Let people try the game cheaply, but if they keep using it, charge them more until they have paid the full price.

This would encourage people to try new games and would penalise companies that release games with bugs that make them unplayable. It would prevent most Pirates from bothering while giving good developers the revenue they need to thrive.

 

[Khab]

Hullo!

First of all: dvdboxoffice are quite alright, IF they have the item in stock - don't ever order things that are out of stock there, it may take MONTHS before you get them. I've had wildly warying results from them, but at least they're trustworthy money-wise.

Second: Moral Maze time. I'm posting this mostly because I hope for an interesting discussion, if mods reckon it's out of line, please adjust accordingly. It's a fine line.

I ordered Civ4 from play.com in the UK, since it was dead cheap (£17.99 compared to the £40-odd I'd have paid in a store here).
When the game was released in the US, it very quickly showed up for download at various illegal outlets. I'd already ordered the game, I had a weekend during which I had nothing to do whatsoever and was home alone, so I downloaded it. Was this morally bad of me?

If you reckon it is then lets move on. A week later, the game is released in Yurp. play.com ship my copy and charge my card accordingly. Now, if I had waited until this point, when I had actually PAID for the software, would it have been alright to download it? Had the police busted down my doors, I could have pointed to the fact that I'd paid for the license to play it - but otoh, I hadn't accepted the EULA. Tricky, innit?

Anyways, as for piracy being tricky - not really. The Civ4 rip was very easy to get to work. I still haven't inserted the disc, proper, into my machine...

If there's a discussion as to whether I've actually bought it as I say, I'll offer to post a pic of any page of the manual and/or disc together with any household object that I'd reasonably own.

 

[zedong]

I seem to have started a snowball here and I just want to take the opporunity to clear up my feelings on the matter.

1) I beleive that Piracy is wrong, whether it is theft of software, music, cars or wives.
2) I also believe that many of the trade restrictions placed on small companies and countries is no different that piracy. The simple fact that I can purchase a year old product from a company over the internet shows that it is indeed technically possible and I therefore do not see why they can a sell me a month old product.
3) All the power to other people's opinions and it's great to see the response that my rant got. I must say however, that unless you live in a country where it is so difficult to get things, you MAY not understand how I FEEL about the matter.
4) For the record, I downloaded a demo of CIV 4 and enjoyed it enough to want to buy it and while I cannot claim to have never downloaded music or software before, I must (and for the skeptics I can do no more than) promise that in 9 cases out of 10, I will buy the music pr game when I can. I also must point out that this means when I pay $1,200 for a plane ticket to FLorida or Puerto Rico to get wat I want.
5) Essentially, all I want to is buy a game that I enjoy. If you think this argument is worth getting you panties in a bunch, please go to Limewire.com and download a life.

 

[henrycccc]

Piracy is the only way to get games in some countries, like China. In that case it is perfectly fair.

 

[Khab]

For anyone who doesn't live in the God-blessed, all-singing, all-dancing United States of America:

EBay is your friend.
http://search.ebay.com/search/searc...atitle=Civilization 4&from=R8&fkr=1&save=Save

 

[Efexeye]

Piracy is the only way to get games in some countries, like China. In that case it is perfectly fair.

WRONG, IT'S NOT FAIR. It's naive/misinformed to think so.

 

[henrycccc]

WRONG, IT'S NOT FAIR. It's naive/misinformed to think so.

Why?, if you seriously can't afford a game, and piracy is the only way to get it, its fine. People in china can't really afford 50 bucks.

 

[Efexeye]

Why?, if you seriously can't afford a game, and piracy is the only way to get it, its fine. People in china can't really afford 50 bucks.

You're either trolling, or...forget it, I won't say it, because it's a flame.

It's okay to steal something if you can't afford it? Well, I'm gonna go gaffle that Maserati I've been wanting!

 

[Siggy19]

It's okay to steal something if you can't afford it?

Wierd though it may seem, the comment about the Chinese not being able to afford $50 is not entirely ludicrous.

It costs Firaxis under $1 to distribute the game on CD and less if people download it. Since the development cost is fixed, if they can get a few 10s of millions of Chinese paying $5 for each copy, they will be VERY happy.

Software is not like a car which is expensive to produce individually. Once it is developed, the more you sell the better...

In practice, it does make sense for different countries (with different standards of living) to have different prices, even though that seems unfair to us Americans (since we would pay the most) !

 

[Sadan01]

Why?, if you seriously can't afford a game, and piracy is the only way to get it, its fine. People in china can't really afford 50 bucks.

So as others have said, by what you are saying, you cant afford anything in your life, it is okay to either copy it or steal it without paying for it?

No my friend. That is not right. Against the law, whether that law stands in your country or not and is not morally right.

...even though that seems unfair to us Americans (since we would pay the most) !

I dont know about that actually. I occasionally look at the price of games or hardware over there in the U.S. and after doing a conversion of the exchange rate (U.S. Dollars to Aussie Dollars), we are actually paying more as the RRP down here is not based on the exchange rate. In fact, if everything was equal, we are paying more than the U.S. for both hardware and software.

I am sure there are other countries where software/hardware is even more expensive for the common user.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Actually, the real problem with piracy is that games cost same or even more (add taxes) in poor countries compared to rich ones.

I mean here in Serbia average wage is at least 15 times smaller then in America, but original games cost still the same.

And then there is no wonder why all (not 95%, but 100%), or my friends think I'm fool for having original copy of Civ4.
"Wasting a fortune for a game, ridiculus..."


The thing is that if you watch western movie in cinema, tickes in always cheaper in poor country compared to the rich one.

Regardless it's the same exact movie that is played all around the world.

The reason why same is not with gaming industry is MAIN fault why piracy is so common especially in 3rd world countries.


P.S.
Although we still have big problems with DivX piracy.
But I never buy pirated movies, becuse for same cost I could watch it in cinema, enojoy the dolby and widescreen, and don't need to worry about getting some bad quality, recorded in cinema pirated copy.

If only originals were 15e instead of 50e...
Otherwise I see piracy only thriving more and more, at least until 1/2 US standard is achived.

 

[henrycccc]

So as others have said, by what you are saying, you cant afford anything in your life, it is okay to either copy it or steal it without paying for it?

No my friend. That is not right. Against the law, whether that law stands in your country or not and is not morally right.



I dont know about that actually. I occasionally look at the price of games or hardware over there in the U.S. and after doing a conversion of the exchange rate (U.S. Dollars to Aussie Dollars), we are actually paying more as the RRP down here is not based on the exchange rate. In fact, if everything was equal, we are paying more than the U.S. for both hardware and software.


I am sure there are other countries where software/hardware is even more expensive for the common user.

First, I live in the United States, not china. I paid full price for my copy of civ 4. I'm not poor or anything, I am just saying that it is unfair for people who earn $5 a day to pay as much as we do. Software makers are basically asking people to pirate their games by not reducing the price in these countries.

 

[widdowmaker]

I don't see why it is asanine and stupid to believe that the people who devoted the time and energy to making the game deserve to be compensated for their work. Everyone up and down the corporate ladder of several companies, including developers, distributers, and retailers, gets hurt when people pirate their products. I can't understand why anyone who's ever held a job and isn't a criminal thinks it's ok to pirate media. I'm sure you or anyone else would angrily complain if your boss made you work an extra hour without pay or the like.
No one is entitled to civ 4. Firaxis employes put countless hours into the development of the game. It is 100% theirs. They can choose where to sell it and where not to sell it without forfiting their right to be compansated for their work. I hate to sound melodramatic, but honestly you are stealing from hundreds of people who are involved in the creation and retail of a game when you pirate it. You also convince the industry to spend an increasingly higher percentage of their development money on security instead of on developing features for the game. If you live in a country that does not sell the game, follow the creative advice of people on this thread (use ebay, get someone in a selling country to buy it and either send it or bring it to you etc).

they SHOULD be paid, however, it is their own fault that they are not getting money from thos cutomer, so its no problem that he steals it. they refuse to sell in his country out of pride, or stupidity, or whatever.


if a seller refuses to sell, but the theif who robbed the seller IS willing to sell, then the buyer will buy from whomever will sell.


its the devolopers own fault.

 

[bky1701]

Piracy is theft.

There is no way that it can be anything else, although some (misguided) people believe in common-ownership of everything and so may disagree with the concept of 'theft'.

theft
1. The act or an instance of stealing; larceny.

lar·ce·ny n. pl. lar·ce·nies

The unlawful taking and removing of another's personal property with the intent of permanently depriving the owner; theft.

Illegal download of games, no matter what the pirate’s intent was (to test it or to only use the illegal game) is NOT theft, as to be theft you must physically and directly REMOVE the game from the company in order for it to be so.

If I download the game of the internet illegally, this is copyright infringement.

If I go to best buy and take the game in the box off the shelve, I am stealing from BEST BUY.

Anyway, nice how you sliped in the "misguided communists" insult.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Ah, that old topic. My two cents:

When I look at my bookshelf I see dozens of boxes of computer games there (e.g. all CIV games / clones). I need not feel bad for software companies - they quite obviously got a fait share of my money. And I enjoy an original game with a nice, printed manuel and the occassional goodie (The ULTIMA series always excelled in this, having maps printed on cloth or other specials in "hardware").

Having said that, I have downloaded "pirated" versions of games quite often. In fact, I got such a version of CIV4 before I got the original game. Why? Because it was available before a demo and because it allowed me an uncrippled test of the game. Ok, admittedly, with CIV i was pretty sure I would want the "real thing" anyway, never mind my criticism on the graphics and several details.

However, I have had my share of original games which, after 1 or 2 games, turned out to be crap and a waste of money, totally independent of what the box said or what "reviews" told me. In fact, some years ago, buying a game for me was a game of chance, with roughly 15% being good games, 25% being "ok" and 60% being "I wouldn't have paid the money had I known what I get for it".

I'm a quite demanding customer when it comes to games, but if a game company manages to earn my respect, it earns my loyalty, too.

I am lucky that CIV runs on my desktop machine (choppiness and all, but it runs). If it had NOT run, i wouldn't have bought it - I would have deleted my "pirated" copy and that would have been it. So talk about "piracy" as an insurance against badly programmed software I cannot run properly anyway. I see not the slightest reason to have a bad conscience here. ABSOLUTELY not.

Ah, and one more thing: Comparing software "piracy" with theft is rubbish, of yourse. You don't steal anything - you COPY. That is, there is no DIRECT damage to anyone, because nothing is taken away anywhere. Those who know a bit about law know that exactly this is what makes handling of "piracy" so difficult. It is no "theft" and it can't ever be - so you end up with copyright infringement and the like, things that are seen as lesser crimes compared to crimes like real theft.

This does NOT say that piracy in general (especially when it REPLACES you buying original games) is ok. It's just that one has to acknowledge 3 simple facts:

a) There is no "theft" element involved. Media companies of course try to sell it as "thievery", fully knowing they make it up. Repeat: "Piracy" IS NO THEFT.

b) To an extent, "piracy" is the answer to lies of the companies. They lie about what a game would do, lie about on what machines it runs etc. So the answer is to lie about how you legally got the game - until you have proof that their claims hold true. If they do, this is the moment when you are morally required to pay. Fair deal: They keep their promises and so do you. Two sides of a contract. (IMHO, of course. Maybe you do not agree here, but then, you may not have such a collection of bad games like I do. I do not intend to enlarge it.)

c) We all know the argument how big the losses of companies are because of piracy. Come on, we all know that this is a lie, too. People who DO download "pirated" copies would never, ever BUY the same amount. They wouldn't. That simple. Quite a lot actually are "collectors" who enjoy to have big software collections they quite often COULDN'T buy even if they wanted. There ARE losses, of course, but they are much less than what the companies say they are. As if each illegal download would replace one bought original. Ha-ha-ha. I don't really feel like discussing on such a poor intellectual level

So, to sum it up: I actually LIKE buying games. I LIKE to have a good feeling about it, having printed manuals, a nice box and such (hey, I even like the SMELL of a freshly opened game!). What I HATE are false promises, software that doesn't run on my machine and those &%(O)($ copy protection mechanisms that force me to fiddle around with a disc. In fact, my original copy of CIV sits on the shelf nicely just know - I run the "pirated" copy (I *do* have a license, remember?) all the time. Go figure.

 

[Machete Phil]

Actually, the real problem with piracy is that games cost same or even more (add taxes) in poor countries compared to rich ones.

Actually, the real problem with piracy is people like me who work 65-80 hours each week delivering games to you and end up losing our jobs because the publisher of our projects yanks funding due to lack of sales.

Then, Electronic Arts swoops in, buys up the rights to the titles and licenses, and the next iteration of the franchise that ships is such a malformed, Godless abomination dragged through the **** and mud by the money-grubbing, soulless turd gurglers that make up their upper management that the game is left but an empty shell of its former self.

Then players like you complain that the game is no good anymore, so you go off and steal from another company that eventually goes out of business.

It's great fun.

Keep telling yourselves you're not hurting anyone, though.

 

[bky1701]

I agree almost completely with DemonDeLuxe...

 

[warpus]

bky1701 is exactly right. Software piracy is not theft, it is copyright infringement.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just laying out the facts.