Software Piracy

[Efexeye]

I definitely think it affects the bottom line.

Company develops game. It costs the company 100 dollars to do so. Company sells game for 1 dollar.

100 people have a choice- buy the game, or steal it (infringe on its publisher's copyright, whatever, the line on THAT one is paper thin) by downloading, burning, whatever.

100 people buy it. Company makes 100 dollars back. Company is satisfied, world goes on, games keep getting made.

50 people buy it, 50 people pirate it. Company makes 50 dollars back.

What are the company's choices? I do balk a little at "they charge more to combat people who steal it" argument because video games have pretty much hovered around the 50 dollar mark for as long as I can remember, at least back to the late 90's. But you can't reasonably say it costs them NOTHING. It's like a grocery store. Some of every dollar you buy groceries with goes to pay the salaries of the security people that combat the people who steal groceries. Even if it's a 10th of a cent on the dollar, over time, it's going to add up. They have to recover some of that cost, so they boost the price of the game to $1.10.

Now, the company develops another game, and this time they have a little less of a budget, because last time, due to piracy, sales of the game were down. Now they are in the hole twice- less money for development, and a higher price point. Game quality arguably goes down, less people buy because of the price hike, more disillusion (sp?), more dissatisfaction with the finished product, more piracy.

And round and round we go.

(I know, it's simplified, but I just am trying to make a point that piracy is not solely an excuse for crappy software. Piracy simply MUST, and DOES affect the bottom line.)

 

[Varelse]

But even so, what sort of person knowingly breaks the law just to play a game?

Games are luxury items. They're not food, or fuel or a place to live. You don't need them in your life. Just because something nice that you'd like isn't available is no excuse to steal it. Pathetic.

Rant over. Take it or leave it.

Someone who can't get the game, obviously. Ten bucks says you had no problem getting the game.

I'm sure this has been said half a dozen times already but it needed to be said again.

 

[Varelse]

I don't see why it is asanine and stupid to believe that the people who devoted the time and energy to making the game deserve to be compensated for their work. Everyone up and down the corporate ladder of several companies, including developers, distributers, and retailers, gets hurt when people pirate their products. I can't understand why anyone who's ever held a job and isn't a criminal thinks it's ok to pirate media. I'm sure you or anyone else would angrily complain if your boss made you work an extra hour without pay or the like.
No one is entitled to civ 4. Firaxis employes put countless hours into the development of the game. It is 100% theirs. They can choose where to sell it and where not to sell it without forfiting their right to be compansated for their work. I hate to sound melodramatic, but honestly you are stealing from hundreds of people who are involved in the creation and retail of a game when you pirate it. You also convince the industry to spend an increasingly higher percentage of their development money on security instead of on developing features for the game. If you live in a country that does not sell the game, follow the creative advice of people on this thread (use ebay, get someone in a selling country to buy it and either send it or bring it to you etc).

He sounds as if he'd be willing to compensate them if they'd be willing to sell it to him.

 

[jimkirk]

Unless that game is a sequel to an earlier one, that people downloaded, and liked, and planned on buying the sequel to. My example was also meant to if it was a small company, maybe it was their first game or something.



But it is reason to buy the full game.



When you take the TV, best buy LOSES a TV. When you download a game, no one loses any product, only profit they MAY have made.



And that costs... much more then what they may have lost to the pirates in the first place.

firaxis did just that offer a demo and got positive reviews but nonetheless
did any of the reviews mention anything about technical issues its like the reviewers never owned the same ati cards the gamers own or nvidia

anyhow i can see his point in why he justifies himself in trying a "pirated copy"
before he allegedly purchases a legal copy

but pirated copies simply dont work well and often contain viruses too

 

[Varelse]

Actually, the real problem with piracy is people like me who work 65-80 hours each week delivering games to you and end up losing our jobs because the publisher of our projects yanks funding due to lack of sales.

Then, Electronic Arts swoops in, buys up the rights to the titles and licenses, and the next iteration of the franchise that ships is such a malformed, Godless abomination dragged through the **** and mud by the money-grubbing, soulless turd gurglers that make up their upper management that the game is left but an empty shell of its former self.

Then players like you complain that the game is no good anymore, so you go off and steal from another company that eventually goes out of business.

It's great fun.

Keep telling yourselves you're not hurting anyone, though.

And you know as a fact that pircacy is the reason the games don't sell? Seems to me if a game is worth buying people will buy it even if some people do pirate. I am not advocating pirating but by your logic no games should sell enough copies to make a profit, yet plenty, including Civ, do.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

Funny I find you lack of reality laughable.

In case you haven't noticed: You're talking to one of those enlightened discutants who deem everything differing from their personal views "laughable", "ignorant", "stupid" or "egocentric".

Basically, the whole thing is quite simple and you adressed it quite right, I think: Customers pay when they get the feeling they receive a fair equivalent of value in exchange.

One example: I watched 2 of the 3 LOTR movies in the cinema. As soon as I could get copies of the same via P2P networks, I got those. I simply wanted to have those marvellous movies ready at my fingertips. When the box with all 3 extended editions (plus those excellent "making of" add-ons) came out, I bought it. It was the right value and my buying it supported that. So, where was the "theft"? Nowhere. It was an good product, I payed a good price (I just didn't want to buy the not-extended versions). The way it should be.

Now, with software, I'm a very loyal guy. If a company / developer team has managed to earn my respect, I honor that by bying their products at full price, and I spread the word among friends to buy it, too. Since a part of our little company here is an internet café (with games), we do have quite an impact on local customer opinions in that respect. It's just that I am absolutely not willing to support those who write every possible fancy marketing slogan on the box, bribe some reviewers and deliver crap that isn't worth the money. They deserve neither my money nor my respect because all they do is trying to trick as much as possible out of me with as low a degree of own work as possible.

There are a couple of companies who are very much aware of the fact that at the end of the day, their success (if not survival!) depends on how content a customer is with their products and services. So there are those companies that give you a guarantee: "Money back if not content - no questions asked". Strangely (or NOT so strangley?) enough this is not the case with software. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

but pirated copies simply dont work well and often contain viruses too

Actually, this seems to be more a myth than reality. Software pirates do have their own code of honor and would never try to sneak in viruses. One, too, should be aware of the fact that copy protection mechanisms like SafeDisc (in case of CIV4, SafeDisc4 IIRC) are a very problematic part of the code. One could say that games run IN SPITE OF those mechanisms (and not so rarely, they DON'T run because of those). Ironically, since pirated copies often eliminate the protection algorithm in one way or another, these copies tend to run with less problems than the original software AND do away with the need to have the disc in the drive.

One valid point against pirated copies is that many of them are so-called "rips" where much eye candy is missing (e.g. there could be a "ripped" version of CIV where all movies and voiceovers are ripped - don't know, haven't looked for it). The game then is intact and playable, but it lacks some atmosphere. Nice to get a feel for the game mechanics, but obviously not the real thing.

Another point is that many pirated versions cannot be patched properly - either the patch doesn't install in the first place or the patch overwrites the cracked part of the copy, leaving the user with a fully installed game that cannot be played.

I all comes down to one thing: A game you truly enjoy you want to have as an original, for a couple of reasons. And rightly so, of course. It's just a question of how to determine *IF* you enjoy a game.

 

[thedaian]

There are a couple of companies who are very much aware of the fact that at the end of the day, their success (if not survival!) depends on how content a customer is with their products and services. So there are those companies that give you a guarantee: "Money back if not content - no questions asked". Strangely (or NOT so strangley?) enough this is not the case with software. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Those companies also have products that can't easily be copied onto the Hard Drive or another CD/DVD and given back to them for a full refund. Piracy (and the ease of it spreading) has caused stores to change their return policies. Of course, plenty of stores get scammed without even dealing with software, so it's not purely due to software pirating.

People have said that if the company makes good games that sell well, then they'll stay in business. Well, that's not true. (Or, maybe it's true, and the example of the group that made Fallout, amoung MANY other great companies and game series' just had a bad game that didn't sell well).

People have also mentioned the high cost of games. Now, I'm pretty young when it comes to my age, so I don't remember exactly how much Civ 2 cost when it came out, but I do seem to remember attempting to find out for around $40 or so. Game prices haven't gone up (excluding the newest consoles, where prices have apperently hit $60 or more). I even remember reading that Atari games sold for around $50. Game prices haven't gone up, so that's not exactly a valid complaint.

Now, if you can't get the game due to being in another country, and, as with a game like Civ4, you'd have to wait a year or MORE for it to become available for you, outside of looking for someone willing to ship the game to you, you do have a complaint. I can understand the reasoning behind piracy in that case. As for those who are complaining that "You don't have enough money to spend on the game", then really, piracy is basicly stealing. Or, to use the "offical" term, copywrite infringement. If you're poor (espically if your a teen, and can't get the newest games because you don't have a job), then wait. That's all. Typically, game prices drop after a while. It might take time, but hey, spend $50 for it right now, or wait a year or two, it might drop to $30 or $40, or less. If you're in my position, which is to say, living on your own (have bills to pay, rent, ect), working a crappy job, does that justify pirating the game? No. You can save some money, and buy it. Or, you can wait, and buy it for $30 less in 2 years. As somone so excellently pointed out, games are NOT required to live. They make life more fun, but there's a lot of things you can do for fun. Go to 5 movies, or buy a single game, it's up to you. But if you're not making much money, don't use that as a reason to pirate.

<rant>
Finally, I must say one thing about anti-piracy, mainly the ads. I bought Office Space (the special edition, recently released in the states and elsewhere). It has an anti-piracy ad run whenever I put the disk in a dvd player. I can't skip it. Yet.... I didn't pirate the movie. I bought it. So, why should I, as a buyer of the movie, be punished by a rather annoying infomerical about pirating, when I just did exactly what it is they WANTED me to do, which was buy the movie. It's incredibly annoying. Same with commericals and previews in movie theaters. Almost makes me WANT to pirate newly released movies, just to be able to skip all that annoying stuff.
</rant>

So, does anyone know if Machete Phil is actually a game developer? Cause, it sounds to me like he is.

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

@thedaian

I think people think a bit simplistic when they say software piracy was the primary reason for software companies going bankrupt. For one, there are many more non-software companies which have financial trouble without being victims of piracy in any form at all. It would be interesiting to compare the figures to see whether piracy has any impact on this at all. I do not say that it doesn't - it's just that I don't know any hard facts about it. OTOH, among the most pirated software ever count all Microsoft products. Last time I checked, MS was alive and kicking... how come? Shouldn't they be bankrupt according to the reasoning of those who accuse software pirates of being the doom of the industry?

"Market" in general is all about knowing what the customer wants and deliver exactly that. With movies, some companies have begun to realize that they actually make MORE money with merchandise of all kind than with the actual cinema tickets. I would not be surprised if we saw some very well made movies in the future that come as "special editions" with lowered ticket prices as a consequence.

And btw. there's a simple reason why games haven't increased in price in the previous years in spite of increasing development costs: They sell many more copies of the same game than they did a couple of years before, primarily because many more people own a computer in the first place.

 

[Dairuka]

Many publishers do not release their software in certain countries, because they fear that they would have to compete with piracy over a few number of potential consumers. I could guarantee to you that a publisher would lose money if they tried to sell a game like Civilization 4 in India, even in spite of the larger consumer base regarding telecommunications like Computers. Mainly because you'd have to compete with pirated prices of $7 USC, to a legal copy with the price on the upwards of $60-$120 USC to cover the shipping, tariff/duty, and taxes.

The difficulty of translating, and shipping a game delays it's release in other countries. By then, pirated copies of the game are already out on the internet being downloaded at high volumes.

I do not condone Piracy, but I do understand why it exists. It's not so 13 year old Americans who can't cajole their parents into buying it for them, can play a game before they get it for Christmas...

I do believe it to be stealing; especially as people make money off of selling pirated copies in many developing countries like China, India, Korea, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Phillipines...

However, I believe it to be something that most Game Developing Companies just write off. You can not prevent it completely, but you can protect against it. Thats why copy-write protection exists.

 

[LadyTetsu]

Oh my, this looks like great fun. And a real mindbender of a problem, late in the evening as it is for me.

Let me state that these are my opinions, I claim no stature of law or software engineering or business management. But I can type, thus I shall.

Zedong - that sucks. If no one else will post you the game, I will. The US Federal Register has a searchable list, and cIV fits in the green category. No laws broken there.

Theft, infringement, larceny, yadda yadda blah blah blah. Semantics, as said before. The basic question here is are you taking something, ANYTHING of value from anyone else without providing recompense? I argue that it's similar to painting. If I spend hours of my time creating a great piece (not that I could) and have it hung in a museum for people to enjoy after paying five bucks, should someone come through and take a snapshot of my work and begin reselling images of it? The whole world is inundated with billions of copies of my work, and now I'm super-famous and everybody loves me a fabulous artiste. On the other hand, various groups are condemming me for violating cultural or religious taboos and now segments of the world loathe my very name. (Um, like here.) BUT. That snapshot-taker just violated a right I had to hang my piece in a museum and CONTROL what happened to it. The creator gets to pick where and when and how it is shown - BECAUSE IT IS HIS. You don't want to pay five bucks? Fine. don't see the painting. Wait for a free day. It's mine, I can say so, because I created it. (Same goes for US control of the internet, methinks)

Yes, the world market sucks. I am an American, and even so, sometimes it gripes me at the silly things (like video games) that can't be shipped overseas. I have nothing against anyone who isn't American - after all, if I can fart around on my computer at zero-dark-thirty, so should anyone else! But I would argue that piracy undermines the opening of markets many overseas players hope for - a state labelled as friendly to piracy usually gets LESS in the way of legitimate imports and has to rely ever more heavily on grey-market items. The pirated nation has to institue ever sillier copy-protections, which in turn annoys people who didn't plan on pirating the piece. (Yes, I'm thinking of the delightful recent Sony CD fiasco.)

So, short of a unified world economy, having one seamless overarching piracy law (an ideal ardently to be striven for!) is not going to happen. Common sense must be relied upon:

1. You are taking without recompense for another's original work. Be it huge company or solo artist, you're still taking it and thumbing your nose at them. Doesn't matter if you like it or hate it, I rather doubt they care overmuch.
2. As someone else pointed out, it's a game. If you don't like the price tag, or if you won't/can't have someone post it or buy it from a dealer who can sell to you, do without. There's a list of Japanese import CDs/DVDs three miles long I'd give my eyeteeth for, and I still only have BOUGHT two. The only two I have, in any form. When it comes to foods or medicines or shelter, then yes, an obligation exists to share it worldwide. But I fought and scraped to pay for my copy and yes, all the bloody upgrades it took. It irks me to think that some steal a luxury I scrimped to afford because they just flat don't like the price or the delay in getting it, and some just steal as a matter of course. I wish I lived in a world where I could do that without knowing it was wrong. Consider my panties twisted.
3. If you don't like U.S. trade laws and the laughably easy ways to get around silly oversights like this LEGALLY, then don't buy from U.S. companies. I know that's a really big chunk of the world. Cool. Upgrade your companies and economies. We need some competition. No, really, we do!!!
4. If none of this makes you at least reconsider, then go make your own bloody game. Start it from scratch, your idea, your baby, your time and energy and sleepless nights and triumphs of hard work. Then post it somewhere where anybody can snitch it, watch the host site get paid for their adverts and popups due to traffic your baby generated, and sit on your moral little thumbs and see how long it takes you to get angry over losing profits you only "might" have made. And feed your family on said nonexistent profits.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I live in Costa Rica, where about 80% of all software is illegal. I bought Civilization III and IV from ebay, and sent it to a address in Miami, then to my country. I think game companies are making a huge mistake by setting the prices so high. Every single game takes like 2-4 months to come here, and costs probably about twice as much than in the US due to high taxes. So imagine why piracy levels are so high. In other Latin American countries, over 90% of the sofware is ilegal. I study Software Engineering, so I know how hard it is to design a game or program only to have it stolen by someone else. So my point is that maybe the software industry must set its prices lower, or else piracy will continue to become a problem.

Exactly!

It's easy for Americans to be moralists, if they can actually afford to buy games, for very small fraction of their wages.

But having games overpriced in 3rd world markets, just means less games sold, since there is cheap alternative.


You can't just keep monoply on computer games, set price and get money, and then whine about piracy.

Piracy does not exist on its own. It's fed on other factiors.


P.S.
Look at the movies for example.
They have they budget in millions, they are watched in most countries around the world.

So tell, me why tricked price is not exactly the same in all coutries?

Because there are the laws of market. You can't sell something for greater price then it's worth in particular market.

Sallaries are lower in some parts of the world:
-lower prices of movies
-lower prices of food
-lower prices of apartments
-lower prices for games???

P.P.S.
On the other hand, I don't really understand americans, espacially adult americans that actually playe pirated the games. Since for them originals are actually dirt cheap, especaully compared to what outsiders are up to.

 

[Wlauzon]

Oh, lots of people you would probably never recognise as criminals.

The same millions of honest folks that saw nothing wrong with downloading pirated MP3 songs.

 

[TerraHero]

How hard is it for the games industry, by now one of the biggest industries to release game in the US AND Europe and heck the rest of the world?

Right now im waiting for PoP3: TT because the release for the Netherlands is 8dec and the US is the 1st.

Once it seriously took 3 months for a game released in the US to come to the "smaller" european countries, such as the Netherlands. Even tough all the shipping of them games and such are most likely all done in Rotterdam, mainport to europe in the Netherlands.

Global release greatly reduces pirating aswell, since people that dont want to wait and watch other ppl have fun with a game for another atleast full week before they got any chance of purchasing it, so they get a pirated US version, wich are online quicker then you can say JackBeNimble.

Appart from that im looking really in a critic way the games industry and the retail of games in contrast to there whinning of increased Piracy to wich they yield only 1 weapon. "We increase the price of the game for all the people that DO buy it in store to compensate". What kinda bollox attitude is that, it only drives more people to piracy.

Most people pirate because they refuse to pay insane prices for a game that isnt neccisairily worth it and because they are NOT gona wait 1-3 weeks before they even got a chance on buying this overly prized piece of software.

Releasing games globally, and dropping the retail prices to a less insane level, (even with 30euro's for a game instead of 50-60 they still make a profit) will reduce piracy more then any commercial or copy-protection program EVER will.

 

[spankey]

Exactly!

It's easy for Americans to be moralists, if they can actually afford to buy games, for very small fraction of their wages.

But having games overpriced in 3rd world markets, just means less games sold, since there is cheap alternative.


You can't just keep monoply on computer games, set price and get money, and then whine about piracy.

Piracy does not exist on its own. It's fed on other factiors.

People pirate software mainly because they can get it for free or cheaper (in terms of their money or labor) than getting it through legal means.

Most of the faux moralizing by pirating fans is crap. --we pirate because its harder to get or cheaper/companies are selling it too high for some poorer countries, we are pirating it to teach them a lesson--

There is plenty of pirating in the US, and it is because people want something for nothing. Not for any aultristic ideals.

Walmart is vilified in the US, but people continue to shop there first. Why? mainly price and convenience. Pirating is no different. people pirate for price and convenience.

It should not be a surprise to anyone to learn that countries that do not respect property rights (actual or intellectual) do not have strong economies or have economic problems. Economies are based upon capital, and the ability to extend credit (capital) is largely driven by securing the credit to some type of property--either land, goods, or services. If a country does not respect property rights, then capital, or in the case of software--access and distribution--will dry up because nothing can be secured against it. Nobody will invest in a property or venture that can be taken away at a moment's notice or completely lose its value.

If you are a big proponent of piracy, then I guess you could support the confiscation of your own property at any time for no compensation. Think about it.

 

[Reg Pither]

Most people pirate because they refuse to pay insane prices for a game that isnt neccisairily worth it and because they are NOT gona wait 1-3 weeks before they even got a chance on buying this overly prized piece of software.

But I still don't follow this logic when all we're talking about is a game. Why this OTT, emotional tirade about a hobby? There are plenty of leisure pursuits that I can't afford, but it doesn't mean I go out and steal them. Surely people have so many other opportunities to entertain themselves these days, and legally too!

I understand how it can be a reason for piracy, but never an excuse.

On a local note, PC games used to be £45 as a matter of course here in the UK a few years back, and many US games would never even get a UK release. Now games are typically £30 and available within a week or two. I'm sure the same progression is, or will be, happening all over the world as the industry grows.

 

[TerraHero]

your talking about a game as leisure in a fanatics forum

1 bad word about Civ nd you get dragged out and shot for real.

And then teh UK is an exception, for the game prices in other countries are still rising yearly. In 2 years time games in the Netherlands have experienced a 50% increase in cost, and we are not the only ones.

 

[Hardin]

And you will find a game that is a POS



And you will find a game that is a POS



And you will find a company using any excuse it can to not have to refund money for said POS

I am totally agianst software piracy, but these excuses are BS at best. Based on your 'theory' every game company on the planet should be bankrupt. The fact is if a game doesnt sell it is becuase it is a BAD game, nothing to do with piracy, that is just the cry baby excuse used to shift blame, and we the legit consumer gets shafted with crappy copy protection becuase the cry baby developer told the distributer thier game didnt sell becuase of pirates.

Westwood was shutdown and there games were not POS.

 

[SPQR300]

For the guy who said that piracy is really difficult, and it takes much time to get a game running: the end-pirate-user has a really easy job, he has useful programs, intructions etc... even the most complex Starforce 3 copy protection can be bypassed in less then a minute by the end-user.

 

[Nightfang]

Westwood was shutdown and there games were not POS.

Westwood was shutdown because EA likes to practice pillage and burn tactics. Also, Earth and Beyond was the last title Westwood developed before being axed, and we all know just how well that title did. After all that development, E&B was shutdown for lack of interest/subscribers. This put Westwood in a deep hole financially, and EA shut them down.

E&B was an MMORPG. No piracy involved there.