Software Piracy
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Efexeye said:
Damn it ! You have made a totally reasonable point here !
I can't play Civ IV (despite buying it the day it got out) because I can't persuade my wife to let me spend $1,500 on a new laptop purely for this game !
In practice, I think most of the discussion has been focused on Piracy in general and the reasons why some software is not legally sold to certain countries. In that respect the Civ IV situation is not really relevent since, as you say, few in China or India could run the game even if they had it.
Efexeye
Silly Donkey
Frewfrux said:Someone printed manuals? No more PDFs? Where can I get it?
Well, in the US, at least. Want mine? I don't need it. There is nothing in there that you can't learn by mouseover, although, some of the charts in the back, and the little coda written about developing the game at the end are pretty good.
Well new games has always been, say, $50 in USA. Assuming an average American makes $2000 a month that's 2.5% of the monthly wage.Efexeye said:
It could be 100% of the monthly wage in, say, Dominican Republic or maybe 200% of the monthly wage in maybe Congo (sorry Dominicans and Congoers).
The difference is here not the price that is changing. I'm not saying being poor justifies piracy though.
Efexeye
Silly Donkey
Siggy19 said:
Well, you know what they say, if an infinite number of monkeys typed on an infinite number of typewriters for an infinite amount of time, eventually one of them would write "Macbeth"!
Alternatively, "The sun's gotta shine on a dog's ass sometimes!"
Same logic here- if I post often enough, I'm bound to make sense once in a while!
Control Group
Chieftain
This is an interesting assertion. I would be interested to hear your justification for this in terms of intellectual property. Particularly since this position is not at all recognized by any society or government of which I am aware.
Actually, many people (myself included) would defend a person stealing food or clothes because they couldn't afford to buy them. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that stealing to survive isn't immoral. Your position on this is...interesting.
And the difference you cite, that software is something of an intangible, isn't the toss-off one-liner of obviousness you seem to think. Software is intangible, and that's a very real difference. You can call it "semantics" all you want, but there is a fundamental difference between depriving someone of actual possessions and depriving someone of unrealized possessions.
Your attempt to reduce a complex topic to a series of pithy phrases does neither you nor the topic justice.
Demonstrably false. Richard M. Stallman is as radical a champion for the complete abolishment of software copyrights as you could possibly imagine. Eric S. Raymond is less extreme than RMS, but is also largely against copyright.
(NOTE: I do not agree with RMS or even ESR in their views on copyright, I simply point to them as counterexamples)
player1 fanatic
Fanatic
Actually, there is another factor involved with 3rd world counties (as well as eastern europe).
Before 10 year those countres have no official software market.
All software was pirated becuse there was no other way to get software.
Such piracy was not neither any kind of theft neither since nobody really got ther profit stolen.
Then...
Microsoft comes.
And wants to make profit.
Then lawas get changed and legality starts to matter.
And you need to confince people who used pirated software for 10 years that it's moraly right to spend x20 times more for it (while having wages still 20 times lower then westerners).
It's not easy. Just saying it's wrong does not lead anyware.
You need to distibute software for more realistic prices, beause that's the only way to make a profit.
Full price does not do good if nobody wants to buy it for same price. Whining it's wrong won't give more money.
As someone said games are luxuty commondity.
That why American was dish 50$ for such commondity, while average 3rd world/or eastern europer won't do such thing in his mind. Especially for somethign that's called a luxury. They'll use cheaper alternative.
As well as their use fake Levis, Swatch or anything else.
Before 10 year those countres have no official software market.
All software was pirated becuse there was no other way to get software.
Such piracy was not neither any kind of theft neither since nobody really got ther profit stolen.
Then...
Microsoft comes.
And wants to make profit.
Then lawas get changed and legality starts to matter.
And you need to confince people who used pirated software for 10 years that it's moraly right to spend x20 times more for it (while having wages still 20 times lower then westerners).
It's not easy. Just saying it's wrong does not lead anyware.
You need to distibute software for more realistic prices, beause that's the only way to make a profit.
Full price does not do good if nobody wants to buy it for same price. Whining it's wrong won't give more money.
As someone said games are luxuty commondity.
That why American was dish 50$ for such commondity, while average 3rd world/or eastern europer won't do such thing in his mind. Especially for somethign that's called a luxury. They'll use cheaper alternative.
As well as their use fake Levis, Swatch or anything else.
Efexeye
Silly Donkey
Control Group said:
My position is...interesting? You are comparing a computer game to something that someone needs to survive, like food. Totally different things, therefore, the comparison is invalid. Does the Catholic church say its okay to steal if you really, really want something that you can't/won't afford to pay for?
Software is only an intangible because it isn't a hard commodity. Fact is, the arrangement of bits on my hard drive is, in fact, different, because I paid to buy cIV and install it. I can't see or feel the difference, but the fact remains that I could not play before I installed the game, and I can play now, after I've installed it. If you pirate the game, the bits on your hard drive are arranged differently, but it hasn't cost you anything to do so. How is that NOT stealing? I just don't understand the logic that software and digital media files are somehow different from a good that you can hold in your hand.
Have you read this thread? Pithy phrases? I've posted about a dozen times in this thread! You are doing the topic a disservice by not reading everything before you attempt to contribute.
Efexeye said:
Please accept my apologies for the patronising tone I am about to use...
1. There is a difference between development cost and production cost. A restaurant, bar, car company, sports team etc all have production costs due to me walking in the door and making an order, taking a seat etc. They may also have development costs (I would count Rent in this category) but these are usually a small proportion of the charge that they make. If I were to download a game over the internet (after paying for it), the cost to produce that copy of the game would be negligable. Even the boxed copy with the printed manual and CD at the game store costs less than $5 to produce. The main cost for software is development.
Sell 1 million copies in America at $50 and you get $50,000,000.
Sell 100 million copies in India and China at $5 and you get $500,000,000.
Which do you think the software companies would prefer ?
2. In cinemas or theatres, if you leave before the show is over and ask the manager for your money back, you will normally get it unless it is a particularly popular show. I've done it. Of course, if you insist on staying for the whole show, they may doubt that you disliked it as much as you claim.
4. Demo games are notoriously not representative of the actual game. They rarely have the same bugs (example being Civ IV) for example. Still, it is better than nothing.
All I am proposing is that the developers actually pay attention to Piracy and consider the possibility of solutions other than simple copy-protection. Piracy is not necessarily the problem... sometimes it is just the symptom of the problem.
DemonDeLuxe
Warlord
It is quite simply wrong to say piracy would hit the "small creative companies" especially hard. Anybody who puts forward this argument has never had a look into a typical P2P program. Pirate grounds are dominated by exactly the same laws as official ones: By marketing, success and hype. So the software that is pirated the most is of course the software with the biggest amount of advertisement which typically is NOT that from the "small creative company" but the gazillionth episode of one of those "big games" out there. It don't advocate that, mind you, I just want to inform you how it works. While it is definitely true that a small company is hit harder IF it is victim of piracy, at the same moment it is much more UNLIKELY to become one. The more advertisement, the more success => the more piracy. As simple as that.
The plain fact is that piracy is most damaging to big companies with huge marketing budgets. The reason is simple: The currency of pirates is "fame". Fame you can only get by cracking / spreading software that MANY people want. People want what game magazine show on 4-full-color-page reviews plus 2-color ad, a fully grown demo and a multimedia website. This has NOTHING to do with quality, creativity or whatever cute and just attribute one is inclined to assign to those products, but with sheer marketing power.
Complaining about how piracy would be especially damaging to those "small creative companies" (as IF being small were a guarantee for being creative...) is like complaining about how faked leather bags would damage those small manufactures who make them. Everybody knows Louis Vuitton - and THEIR bags and suitcases are faked ("pirated"). Nobody knows Maitre Dabierre who makes bags of outstanding quality but doesn't sell on 5th avenue and does not advertise in Vogue. Same thing.
The discussion is difficult enough without such urban legends.
The plain fact is that piracy is most damaging to big companies with huge marketing budgets. The reason is simple: The currency of pirates is "fame". Fame you can only get by cracking / spreading software that MANY people want. People want what game magazine show on 4-full-color-page reviews plus 2-color ad, a fully grown demo and a multimedia website. This has NOTHING to do with quality, creativity or whatever cute and just attribute one is inclined to assign to those products, but with sheer marketing power.
Complaining about how piracy would be especially damaging to those "small creative companies" (as IF being small were a guarantee for being creative...) is like complaining about how faked leather bags would damage those small manufactures who make them. Everybody knows Louis Vuitton - and THEIR bags and suitcases are faked ("pirated"). Nobody knows Maitre Dabierre who makes bags of outstanding quality but doesn't sell on 5th avenue and does not advertise in Vogue. Same thing.
The discussion is difficult enough without such urban legends.
An interesting situation that might be realivant here is that of the lack of supply of the drug used to help people living with AIDS in South Africa. Initailly, the drug development companies said that they would sell the drug, at *full* price to SA. Of course, most people in SA couldn't afford it. So, South Africa said "screw you, we just won't recognize your copy-right on the drug and we will manufacture it ourselves." It wasn't long after this that the drug companies decided to reduce the price of this drug in third world countries.
Not sure if that's *exactly* how it went...but it's what I've heard...like I said, maybe its realivant, maybe not.
Not sure if that's *exactly* how it went...but it's what I've heard...like I said, maybe its realivant, maybe not.
Siggy19 said:
Sorry to steal your thunder, Eye, but I dont agree with you on this one. A person buys a computer once every few years while they buy maybe 1 game a month. A computer is a multi purpose tool for most people so they are willing to invest their money into getting one. However, a game is just a hobby item for them with only the sole purpose of entertaining them, therefore, they are less willing to spend the money on it if it doesnt fit their budget. Plus, if they are cash strapped and have already bought an expensive computer (and possibly paying montly installments for it), they are less willing so shell out money for entertainment software.
Efexeye
Silly Donkey
MattJek said:
Sorry man, but that's a crap argument. If you can't afford to buy gasoline, you don't buy a car. If you can't afford to buy legitimate software, you shouldn't buy a computer.
If you can afford to buy a computer, you shouldn't be crying poor when it comes to the software.
DemonDeLuxe
Warlord
Frewfrux said:
scusi, stupid error... fixed. Now, THAT's what I call a quick patch ;O)
Control Group
Chieftain
Both the above quotes are from you, Efexeye. You said people wouldn't defend people stealing food if they couldn't afford it. I said I, other people, and the Catholic Church would defend people stealing food if they couldn't afford it. Then you criticize me for comparing software to food? I hate to be childish, but you started it.
Of course video games are luxuries and food isn't. Which is why I found your position equating the two of them...interesting. Nice of you to fix it, though.
Software is intangible because it is not scarce. Ideas are not scarce. You telling me your idea does not remove it from you, it means there is just more of your idea around. If I am holding an onion in my and, and you take it from me, you have an onion and I don't. If I have a copy of a game on my hard drive and you copy it from me, we both have the game.
This is a difference.
If I steal a car from someone, he can't sell me or anyone else the car, and he no longer has a car. If I pirate a game from someone, he can still sell everyone except me the game, and he still has the game. You keep asserting that these are the same thing, but they are clearly not.
Calling piracy stealing is an appeal to emotion, and an attempt to apply all the properties of scarce goods to non-scarce goods. Piracy is no more stealing than murder, arson, barratry, teaching, or charity are.
This does not mean I support piracy.
I support a discussion on the topic that doesn't always revolve around "piracy is theft and the evillest thing ever and will ruin software and music and movies and books forever" vs. "piracy is just my right as someone who can't afford luxury goods and I should stick it to the man by copying all his software," both of which positions are patently ridiculous.
randallman
Chieftain
- Joined
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Control Group said:
Are you kidding me? It's recognized by the current system in the US. Firaxis doesn't HAVE to sell its games to Turkmenistan if they don't want to. Restaraunt XYZ reserves the right to refuse me service (and ergo the right to taste thier intellectual property in the form of food recipies or drink mixtures, etc...) for just about ANY reason sort of a demonstrable handicap. If I came up with the cure for HIV - I would not be LEGALLY obligated to make it available to ONE person (not that I would *ever* take this stand, but...)
Control Group said:
RMS is... well... he's always causing some kind of rukus which SOMETIMES has positive results, but often just makes him look assnine (r.e. Lignux or the old mid 80's emacs vs. vi wars immortalized on usenet)
That being said, the open source model works really well for certain software - and I think we *all* know that the open source model simply does NOT work for games.... Who is going to pay all of those actors for thier voiceovers? or all of those graphics designers for thier artwork, etc... etc... etc...
Can you name one really high quality open source videogame?
Efexeye
Silly Donkey
Control Group said:
I was merely trying to illustrate that people who defend software piracy wouldn't defend stealing "real" goods. That's all. As far as "fixing it" I don't know what you mean...I haven't edited any posts, except for spelling.
Control Group said:
Software is not just an idea. The work that goes into developing it is quantifiable. You are trivializing the work that goes into the game. Sure, the CD is a buck to print. There are probably less than 5 dollars worth of physical materials in the whole cIV package. However, it costs millions of dollars to develop games from concept to production. You are discounting all of that work as worthless.
Control Group said:
Massage it all you want. The fact of the matter is, if you pirate software, you are getting something for nothing. In my book, that is stealing.
Control Group said:
For someone that claims not to support piracy, you are defending it pretty vigorously!
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