Software Piracy

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Efexeye said:
Sorry man, but that's a crap argument. If you can't afford to buy gasoline, you don't buy a car. If you can't afford to buy legitimate software, you shouldn't buy a computer.

If you can afford to buy a computer, you shouldn't be crying poor when it comes to the software.

Ah, basically, of course, you are right. No doubt about that.

However: You might have noticed that even in the so-called "rich" western civilizations there are problems. Quite a bunch of them, in fact, and probably not the smallest among them the growing discrepancy between rich and poor. At the same time, marketing power is unleashed onto everybody. What is marketing? Marketing is the attempt to incite a desire for something which is not necessarily needed. So it might be cynical but nevertheless true that the urge to get all that wonderful (as the ads say) stuff is proof of the success of a marketing strategy. Marketing makes people want something. Sadly for the companies, there is no effective filter as to WHO wants something, meaning that marketing adresses even those who could not afford the products.

The problem is especially pressing for younger people and ESPECIALLY those in the so-called "lower classes" where your status is determined primarily by what you own and what you (seemingly) can afford.

This, of course, is no excuse, it's just an analysis of what's going on there. It basically comes to to a problem of capitalism, really. And of course, the ease of getting the forbidden fruit AND the fact that you don't take anything physically away from someone (i.e. you don't steal) plays an important role here.
 
Efexeye said:
Sorry man, but that's a crap argument. If you can't afford to buy gasoline, you don't buy a car. If you can't afford to buy legitimate software, you shouldn't buy a computer.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .... sorry, Im done....:lol: :crazyeye: :lol: ...ok ok... NOW Im done. Do you have any idea how many people were crapping their pants when gasoline skyrocketed a few months ago because they thought they wouldnt be able to afford to drive their car. People NEED cars!! Cars and computers are an "essential luxury item". You can live without them but life is a lot harder without them then with them. They are big ticket items that most people save up for and buy with caution because they know that these items will make their lives a lot easier/enjoyable. " If you cant aford to keep it, dont buy it" is the lamest excuse I've ever heard (especially for computers) and I know a lot of people would feel the same way.....:p
 
MattJek said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .... sorry, Im done....:lol: :crazyeye: :lol: ...ok ok... NOW Im done. Do you have any idea how many people were crapping their pants when gasoline skyrocketed a few months ago because they thought they wouldnt be able to afford to drive their car. People NEED cars!! Cars and computers are an "essential luxury item". You can live without them but life is a lot harder without them then with them. They are big ticket items that most people save up for and buy with caution because they know that these items will make their lives a lot easier/enjoyable. " If you cant aford to keep it, dont buy it" is the lamest excuse I've ever heard (especially for computers) and I know a lot of people would feel the same way.....:p

Why is it lame? You don't HAVE to have a car to live. Ask anyone that lives in New York City or Los Angeles or Singapore or Hong Kong if you HAVE to have a car.

You don't HAVE to have a computer to live, either. I can think of numerous examples of people that don't have computers, yet they live full, rich lives.

Both things are luxury items, not necessities like food or shelter or clothing. "Essential luxury item" sounds like "jumbo shrimp" to me- it's a contradiction in terms.

"If you can't afford to keep it, don't buy it" is a TOTALLY valid argument.
 
Efexeye said:
For someone that claims not to support piracy, you are defending it pretty vigorously!

Actually, he doesn't. He's just not willing to agree with some other people's rather radical point of view. Of course, for someone who defines copyright infringement incorrectly as "stealing", this is "defending". In the ears of a pirate, he would sound like an enemy... to them. It's a matter of relativity.

I know the mechanism all too well from countless other discussions (about totally different topics) where those who take a non-radical approach to a problem are flamed by advocates of BOTH sides. One learns to ignore it after a while. Just because some people call me "not enough for / against something" that doesn't mean they are right. They are just willing to stick to a radical point of view.
 
DemonDeLuxe said:
Actually, he doesn't. He's just not willing to agree with some other people's rather radical point of view. Of course, for someone who defines copyright infringement incorrectly as "stealing", this is "defending". In the ears of a pirate, he would sound like an enemy... to them. It's a matter of relativity.

I know the mechanism all too well from countless other discussions (about totally different topics) where those who take a non-radical approach to a problem are flamed by advocates of BOTH sides. One learns to ignore it after a while. Just because some people call me "not enough for / against something" that doesn't mean they are right. They are just willing to stick to a radical point of view.

The whole theft/copyright infringement thing is a matter of semantics. TO ME, if you get something without paying for it, when other people pay to get it, you are stealing. We may just have to agree to disagree on that one.
 
Efexeye said:
Well, you know what they say, if an infinite number of monkeys typed on an infinite number of typewriters for an infinite amount of time, eventually one of them would write "Macbeth"!

Alternatively, "The sun's gotta shine on a dog's ass sometimes!"

Same logic here- if I post often enough, I'm bound to make sense once in a while!

your post, 1 monkey, 5 minutes

only kidding ;) (I think that is from a Dilbert cartoon)
 
Are you kidding me? It's recognized by the current system in the US.
No, it isn't.

Copyright is for a limited term, after which time it enters the public domain. Of course, in the US, copyright term is ludicrously long, and will probably be retroactively extended whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain, but it's not the only instance of creation. Moreover, even under US copyright law, when you publish something you accept that other people can do certain "fair use" things with it, including parodies. Weird Al is an excellent example: Snoop Dogg specifically did not grant Weird Al permission to parody Gangsta's Paradise, yet it was perfectly legal for Weird Al to do so, and sell the parody.

Consider patents. A patent lasts for 20 years, and when that time is up, everyone else can make whatever it is you patented. In fact, the process of filing a patent specifically includes detailing exactly how to make the thing you've patented, so that as soon as 20 years is up, everyone else can get cracking right away.

Both of these are a far cry from the absolute right of ownership you asserted in your original post.

RMS is... well... he's always causing some kind of rukus which SOMETIMES has positive results, but often just makes him look assnine (r.e. Lignux or the old mid 80's emacs vs. vi wars immortalized on usenet)

That being said, the open source model works really well for certain software - and I think we *all* know that the open source model simply does NOT work for games.... Who is going to pay all of those actors for thier voiceovers? or all of those graphics designers for thier artwork, etc... etc... etc...

Can you name one really high quality open source videogame?
Very true. In fact, RMS is so far out there that I felt compelled to note that I don't agree with him. ;)

I could quibble about open source games and the definition of "quality," but I take your point. Whatever I may think of Tuxracer and Nethack, they're clearly not the same product as something like CIV. You're right, for the sort of video game that feeds the bulk of video game consumption, open source is simply not a viable business model.

But there's a lot of ground between "pirates should be shot on sight; they're the scum of the earth" and "all video games should be free, man," and I think that those two positions detract from the very real and important discussions that should be happening about intellectual property in general.

If I were a smarter person, perhaps I could come up with the system that works. Unfortunately, all I am cognitively capable of managing is recognizing that a system demanding everyone pretend that intellectual property is just like real property (to their own detriment) is doomed to failure, just as a system demanding that intellectual property has no monetary value is doomed to failure.
 
Efexeye said:
and you are unable to comprehend the fact that piracy is STEALING, plain and simple- you're taking something without paying for it.

Period.

it's not that simple though.

say that you buy a copy of civ4 and install it on all of your computers at home - 4 of them.. you invite friends over to your place and you play a multiplayer game.

is this stealing? i'm not so sure - you did after all pay for the product.

but it is piracy - the license only allows you to install civ4 and play the game on one computer at a time.

by purchasing civ4 you are not paying for the physical box, manual, cd, etc. you are paying for 1 license to play the game on 1 computer. that's how software licenses work.. and that's why there is a distinction between copyright infringement and theft.. there are many ways to infringe on a copyright that many people wouldn't consider to be theft.. but it'd still be illegal.

say that you buy civ4 and back up the cd. is this theft? you paid for 1 copy but you now have two.. seems like theft to me, according to your definition.
 
Efexeye said:
Why is it lame? You don't HAVE to have a car to live. Ask anyone that lives in New York City or Los Angeles or Singapore or Hong Kong if you HAVE to have a car.

You don't HAVE to have a computer to live, either. I can think of numerous examples of people that don't have computers, yet they live full, rich lives.

Both things are luxury items, not necessities like food or shelter or clothing. "Essential luxury item" sounds like "jumbo shrimp" to me- it's a contradiction in terms.

"If you can't afford to keep it, don't buy it" is a TOTALLY valid argument.

I know you dont NEED them. You can live without a car in NY or Singapore or LA. But live without one any midsized city or for that matter any suburb of the Metropoli that you mentioned. You wouldnt get anywhere without a car. I know youre not gonna die without a car but it sure makes life a lot more easier and therefore most people would make sacrafices to get one. Therefore, its 'essential' to have one if you want to function in NA society ( ei, have a job, go shopping, etc etc etc)
 
Efexeye said:
"If you can't afford to keep it, don't buy it" is a TOTALLY valid argument.

Unfortunately, I have found myself in quite a predicament regarding this dillema. My wife and I *must* buy a car in order to continue living where we are. If we don't, she will not be able to work and that loss of income will result in us not being able to pay rent.

That being said, we can not afford the price of gas or insurance without making major sacrifices. Sacrifices which we are going to make. These sacrifice are along the lines of only having $5 to spend on our families pressents, not paying for dates (we are going to try to find as much free stuff as possible), not buying computer games (although we *must* have our computer in order for me to keep my job)...stuff like that. So, basically we are going to be operating the car by only buying daily insurance (cost more in the long run, but we can't help that) and by only putting in spare change worth of gas each day.

These items, our future car and our current computer, are *NOT* luxury items. With out them we would not have an income. Now, if we bought a microwave, that would be a luxury item. A cell phone would be a luxury item. Unfortunately, the lines are quite blurry when it comes to the examples you guys have been using, however.

Edit: Civ IV was a gift, in case anyone was wondering.
 
The main reason there is such a debate about 'piracy' is because youre not really 'stealing' anything, your just duplicating it. Its not like stealing a car, or shoplifting because the original owner still keeps the product.
 
Frewfrux, couldn't you afford NOT to have a car if you moved somewhere else?

A car is a necessity IF YOU WANT TO LIVE WHERE YOU LIVE, right? You COULD, theoretically, survive without it, if you were to move?

That's what makes it a luxury.
 
Efexeye said:
Sorry man, but that's a crap argument. If you can't afford to buy gasoline, you don't buy a car. If you can't afford to buy legitimate software, you shouldn't buy a computer.
I wish people would stop with the car comparision. While I agree it WAS a poor argument, yours are no less poor.

Can you get fully legal and free fuel for your car? No! Can you get fully legal and free software for a PC? Yes!


Efexeye said:
If you can afford to buy a computer, you shouldn't be crying poor when it comes to the software.
This is a very superior and narrowminded perspective bordering on the ignorant. Some people has to put aside money for YEARS to be able to afford any kind of PC capable of running anything close to the current standard of software(at any given point in time).

Not being able to afford a piece of software is of course no excuse for piracy, but in the cases where people DO resort to piracy because of that, the software companies claim to have lost money is pure nonsense - as the money they claim to have lost was never there to begin with.
 
Efexeye said:
The whole theft/copyright infringement thing is a matter of semantics. TO ME, if you get something without paying for it, when other people pay to get it, you are stealing.

Let us accept that exactly as you put it, for a moment.

There remain some issues;

1. What happens if someone refuses to allow you to buy something simply because you live in Sunny SoCal ?

2. What happens if you have a laptop without a built in CD drive ? Do you have to lug around the External drive wherever you go because the software demands that the CD be in the drive ?

3. What happens if you work for a company in the 'third world' that makes computers and, because they are nice guys, they let you have one for way below cost as a perk ? But since you are only earning $50 a week and have a family to support, you cannot afford to buy games legally. Even if we accept that you should not 'steal' the game... should the software company make it available at a price that you can afford since it will not cost them anything to do that ?

4. What happens if you buy a game that has so many bugs that it is not enjoyable to play ? It functions for maybe an hour or two, but then needs to be rebooted, for example.

None of these examples justify piracy, but they do perhaps explain some of the practices of pirates (for example removing copy protection).

My argument all along has been that the software industry would benefit from taking these factors into consideration. Rather than simply condemn the pirates, make the systems better so that the pirates lose what little self-justification they currently claim.
 
Control Group said:
No, it isn't.

Copyright is for a limited term, after which time it enters the public domain. Of course, in the US, copyright term is ludicrously long, and will probably be retroactively extended whenever Mickey Mouse is about to enter the public domain, but it's not the only instance of creation. Moreover, even under US copyright law, when you publish something you accept that other people can do certain "fair use" things with it, including parodies. Weird Al is an excellent example: Snoop Dogg specifically did not grant Weird Al permission to parody Gangsta's Paradise, yet it was perfectly legal for Weird Al to do so, and sell the parody.

Consider patents. A patent lasts for 20 years, and when that time is up, everyone else can make whatever it is you patented. In fact, the process of filing a patent specifically includes detailing exactly how to make the thing you've patented, so that as soon as 20 years is up, everyone else can get cracking right away.

Both of these are a far cry from the absolute right of ownership you asserted in your original post.

If I invent something (say, a video game) and get a copyright on it, I can have that relatively 'absolute ownership' to which I am referring. Say for example I invented Civ IV: Call to Flower (heh)... I would have every right to determine the terms by which the 'license to use' is sold (until which time as the copyright expires, as you stated). If I invented a drug to cure HIV and got it patented, that specific formula would be protected by US law for that period of 20 years, during which time I could manufacture, sell, not sell, etc... however I saw fit.

That being said, I'm no lawyer. Perhaps the would-be-consumer has the ability to dictate how I deal with my 'ownership' beyond making the decision to buy or not to buy (under my terms) my product. However, I would find that a bit hard to believe :P
 
Frewfrux said:
Unfortunately, I have found myself in quite a predicament regarding this dillema. My wife and I *must* buy a car in order to continue living where we are. If we don't, she will not be able to work and that loss of income will result in us not being able to pay rent.

That being said, we can not afford the price of gas or insurance without making major sacrifices. Sacrifices which we are going to make. These sacrifice are along the lines of only having $5 to spend on our families pressents, not paying for dates (we are going to try to find as much free stuff as possible), not buying computer games (although we *must* have our computer in order for me to keep my job)...stuff like that. So, basically we are going to be operating the car by only buying daily insurance (cost more in the long run, but we can't help that) and by only putting in spare change worth of gas each day.

These items, our future car and our current computer, are *NOT* luxury items. With out them we would not have an income. Now, if we bought a microwave, that would be a luxury item. A cell phone would be a luxury item. Unfortunately, the lines are quite blurry when it comes to the examples you guys have been using, however.

Edit: Civ IV was a gift, in case anyone was wondering.

Straight from the horse's mouth, thanks Frewfrux for proving my point. :cool:
 
CyberChrist said:
This is a very superior and narrowminded perspective bordering on the ignorant. Some people has to put aside money for YEARS to be able to afford any kind of PC capable of running anything close to the current standard(at any given point in time) of software.

If they can save for the PC, why not for the software?
 
Efexeye said:
Frewfrux, couldn't you afford NOT to have a car if you moved somewhere else?

A car is a necessity IF YOU WANT TO LIVE WHERE YOU LIVE, right? You COULD, theoretically, survive without it, if you were to move?

That's what makes it a luxury.

LOL...we considered this, but the cost of moving was too much. Living in the city is WAY(!!!!!) too expensive!!! Not to mention the loss of work in the inbetween times would probably put us on the streets.
 
Massage it all you want. The fact of the matter is, if you pirate software, you are getting something for nothing. In my book, that is stealing.
Please. I don't pay for the air I breathe, is that stealing? I don't pay for warm sunshine, am I stealing when I sit outside? I don't pay to swim in Lake Michigan, is that stealing?

And before you say that I'm paying by exerting effort to breathe or stay alive or go to the beach, then I'll claim I'm exerting effort to acquire a pirated copy of a piece of software.

What air, sunshine, and Lake Michigan all have in common is that they AREN'T SCARCE RESOURCES. Receiving non-scarce resources for no cost is not stealing, because no one is being deprived of anything.

TO ME, if you get something without paying for it, when other people pay to get it, you are stealing.
Am I stealing if I drink from a city water supply that some company bottles and sells in grocery stores? For the sake of argument, assume I'm not from that city, and therefore have not pre-paid in taxes for the privilege.

For more interesting examples where copyright infringement != theft, please look at the questions I raised in post #132 of this thread.

Actually, he doesn't. He's just not willing to agree with some other people's rather radical point of view. Of course, for someone who defines copyright infringement incorrectly as "stealing", this is "defending". In the ears of a pirate, he would sound like an enemy... to them. It's a matter of relativity.
Great God a'mighty, THANK YOU.
 
Efexeye said:
Frewfrux, couldn't you afford NOT to have a car if you moved somewhere else?

A car is a necessity IF YOU WANT TO LIVE WHERE YOU LIVE, right? You COULD, theoretically, survive without it, if you were to move?

That's what makes it a luxury.

Man, your excuses are becoming more and more lame and desperate :sad:
 
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