Software Piracy

[Dairuka]

Trust me, the 75 cents is a BARGAIN !!!!

Besides, pop over to a free clinic and they'll give you a handful free.

Condoms are cheaper than Abortions, so I agree.

 

[Padma]

Moderator Action: Siggy, Spankey, (others): Let's keep the topic on track: Software Piracy, not Healthcare.

 

[Efexeye]

This depends on how you are defining the term poor. The very word is subjective. What I am saying is that blanket statements like this are not true strait accross the board. Someone could eaily own a computer (my first cost me $100) and not be able to afford to buy needed items like food (currently I am paying just under $200 per month for food).

No one is suggesting that you don't NEED food. What I AM suggesting is that if you need a computer for work, so you buy one, yet you're poor, maybe buying trivial things like games is not in your best economic interest.

I also find it hard to believe that these people making 5 dollars a day in other countries are ABLE to afford computers at all, much less software. If a computer is a luxury that you can afford, you can afford the games, too.

Bottom line is that if you make enough to buy a computer, and you want to play games on it, you should pay for them.

 

[Siggy19]

Most government actions follow the law of unintended consequences.

Ooh, my favorite Law !

I love the whole, let's invade Iraq because it will make America safe from Terrorists, argument. 2,500 dead (on our side) and Muslims everywhere going on Terrorist Training daytrips to Baghdad and Victory is obviously close at hand.

You are right to an extent about Employment in Europe, but that does not mean that American employment practices are right. Somewhere in the middle would be better, where people get a prolonged probation period but then do get some protections, which increase the longer they work there. That way, you get the flexibility that employers need while having the security that employees need. America does not have a middle class. It has a huge rich working class - most of the people who think themselves middle class here cannot survive for more than three months without work - and they only last that long because of credit cards and banks not foreclosing until the mortgage is 90 days overdue.

 

[randallman]

Having an income of less then $100 U.S./month would be increadably poor by North American standards. That same income would make you one of the richer people in the country were I was born, Nigerea. Thus, it is subjective.

Even here in N.A. it is very subjective. My wife and I live below the poverty line. Yet, we can afford (MUST afford) a computer. Someone in a different line of work need not have a computer and so for them it is a luxury.

I really hate to say it, but the 1st and 2nd world are not responsible for giving those in the 3rd world access to the same luxuries as the rest of us....

Do you even play CIV?!@ At least this concept is evident both in real life and in CIV

I realize that it's very unfortunate as choice is not usually a factor in being born in a 3rd world country (and subsequent life situations resultant from living in a 3rd world country), but... It is what it is.

A Dodge Ram Pickup generally costs the same in Philadelphia, Mississippi as it does in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - and I'll guarantee the average salary's are 1.5 to 2x higher (if not more pronounced than that) in PA. than in MS.

Sorry for the bad luck man, but you cant seriously expect a game-maker to sell a product for $5.00 USD a copy in one country, and then $50.00 USD a copy in other countrys. This is being seen right now in the pharmaceutical industry as all of these socialist medical systems negotiate deals with the pharma. companies and and the end of the day, we just get people buying meds in canada and smuggling them back across the border

 

[Siggy19]

Moderator Action: Siggy, Spankey, (others): Let's keep the topic on track: Software Piracy, not Healthcare.

Sorry... I got carried away !

The solution to piracy is simple.

Make it legal and no-one will want to do it !

 

[spankey]

Ooh, my favorite Law !

I love the whole, let's invade Iraq because it will make America safe from Terrorists, argument. 2,500 dead (on our side) and Muslims everywhere going on Terrorist Training daytrips to Baghdad and Victory is obviously close at hand.

You are right to an extent about Employment in Europe, but that does not mean that American employment practices are right. Somewhere in the middle would be better, where people get a prolonged probation period but then do get some protections, which increase the longer they work there. That way, you get the flexibility that employers need while having the security that employees need. America does not have a middle class. It has a huge rich working class - most of the people who think themselves middle class here cannot survive for more than three months without work - and they only last that long because of credit cards and banks not foreclosing until the mortgage is 90 days overdue.

Interesting discussion Siggy, I have enjoyed it... Now this is for Padma, whom I respect and do not want to make mad

Do you think that people are justified to pirate a game for a computer if they can't afford it or don't want to pay for it? I, for one, say no... How 'bout you?

 

[Frewfrux]

They simply aren't poor if they can afford a computer.

This is what I am disagreeing with. This specific, blanket statement.

I am not dissagreeing with...

What I AM suggesting is that if you need a computer for work, so you buy one, yet you're poor, maybe buying trivial things like games is not in your best economic interest.

That I agree with. (Hence my waiting to be given Civ IV as a pressent rather then me buying it.)

 

[Efexeye]

I really hate to say it, but the 1st and 2nd world are not responsible for giving those in the 3rd world access to the same luxuries as the rest of us....

Do you even play CIV?!@ At least this concept is evident both in real life and in CIV

I realize that it's very unfortunate as choice is not usually a factor in being born in a 3rd world country (and subsequent life situations resultant from living in a 3rd world country), but... It is what it is.

A Dodge Ram Pickup generally costs the same in Philadelphia, Mississippi as it does in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - and I'll guarantee the average salary's are 1.5 to 2x higher (if not more pronounced than that) in PA. than in MS.

Sorry for the bad luck man, but you cant seriously expect a game-maker to sell a product for $5.00 USD a copy in one country, and then $50.00 USD a copy in other countrys. This is being seen right now in the pharmaceutical industry as all of these socialist medical systems negotiate deals with the pharma. companies and and the end of the day, we just get people buying meds in canada and smuggling them back across the border

It sounds cold to say it, but I agree. Why do I have to subsidize some poor shmuck in China who wants to play the game? He should pay the same price as I do.

It is not up to US companies to make things "fair".

 

[Efexeye]

This is what I am disagreeing with. This specific, blanket statement.

I am not dissagreeing with...



That I agree with. (Hence my waiting to be given Civ IV as a pressent rather then me buying it.)

Then, we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I see owning a computer as a luxury, and you don't. I don't think we're ever gonna agree on that one.

 

[Siggy19]

I could afford the game but not the computer.

So I bought the game and cannot play it.

Which gives me a nice, clean, moral glow which comforts me when my wife is hitting my head against the wall and saying "No you cannot spend $1,500 on a computer to play a $50 game on".

I'm not really sure what this says about me.

 

[Control Group]

The beams of light coming from a theatre screen have no economic value either, but you're not entitled to let them enter your eyeballs without paying the proper admittance. You're not paying for the light reflecting off the screen, you're paying for the right to sit in front of it.

Exactly. And the number of people who can sit in front of it is limited by the number of seats available. Scarce resource.

Likewise the soundwaves coming from a stage at a concert cannot be packaged or resold, but you're certainly guilty of a kind of piracy against the band if you sneak into their show and listen for free. Is that okay, because the sound you're hearing is "non-scarce commodity?"

Same as the above.

If I'm not consuming the scarce resource, then I'm not stealing it even if I also receive it. For example, at the Alpine Valley venue in WI, you can hear the band quite well from the nearby street. If I take a walk down the street during a concert, am I stealing?

A more famous example is Wrigley Field. Are fans who live in neighboring apartment buildings stealing because they can see into the stadium?

You are offering money to offset the cost of producing the content of the game in exchange for the right to install and play it on a single machine.

YES. EXACTLY. You ARE NOT paying for the good, you're paying for its creation. This is precisely the point I'm driving at. The current system attempt to shoehorn paying for its creation into a "paying for the good" model. You walk into a store, exchange money for a box full of easily-duplicated items, and walk out. This model doesn't work, as evidenced by the amount of piracy that does go on.

Creators need to get paid, or they won't create. Agreed. What I do NOT agree with is that this necessity is best met by trying to pretend that the actual thing you're getting, the physical item, is what you're paying for when it's not.

If you choose to pirate software, you're making a simple statement, "I refuse to pay for the rights to use the product your labor has produced." Period.

False. I play pirated copies of plenty of games I have paid for, and not given to anyone else. I have paid the creator for the effort of creation, I just don't feel like putting the CD in the drive every time I want to play.

Your statement is true only if the person playing the game hasn't paid the creator. The fact that both situations are "piracy" is a perfect example of how the system is inadequate to the task it's designed for.

 

[spankey]

I could afford the game but not the computer.

So I bought the game and cannot play it.

Which gives me a nice, clean, moral glow which comforts me when my wife is hitting my head against the wall and saying "No you cannot spend $1,500 on a computer to play a $50 game on".

I'm not really sure what this says about me.

It says to me that our wives are similar. My wife would love to give my a high colonic with my new 1 GB RAM, new videocard, and new game. But she loves me a probaby (and hopefully) won't.

 

[Cave Troll]

Not true, they do pay for the goods, but 2-3% of full price, which is still lot for "just computer game" in 3rd war countries. And don't talk about p2p networks, such thing still doesn't exist there were anicent 33.6mb modems are primary way of internet communication.

It's just that money doesn't go to puslisher, it goes to pirates that provide cheap alternative to expensive game. In reality consmer does not care who gets the money as long as he can afford the product.

In 3rd world countries price of pirated game is equivanet to price of original in USA in fractions of monthly wages.

So I gues 98% of kids in 3rd world countries should not play computer games at all, so we could make big western publishers happy.

No, no and no!
Solution is cheaper games in poorer markets.
Until it is realized, piracy will alwasy be abundant in such countries.

I'll use moive analogy again:
-same movie
-different ticket prices in different countries


As for piracy in USA...
Shame on you!!!

I have to say this this hits the nail Squarely on the head. The local economic environment Should ALWAYS be a huge factor in pricing of material as well as intellectual goods.

It is those industries (big name clothing, Music cd's, software) that ignore the world markets are the ones that experience the most international pirating (however some ppl will always try to get something for nothing). Because I can guarantee you that if lets say "Elbonia" (forgive me Mr. Adams) suddenly becomes that new economic powerhouse in the world and they start churning out PC games that everyone wanted to play, but they cost the equivilent of 500 USD to purchase, there would be places in the US back alleys and maybe not so back alleys that you could pick up a copy for 50 bucks.
To me this seems to indicate a untapped market.

Also just because someone is on a different economic scale, does not mean that they want or should want less.

 

[Frewfrux]

I really hate to say it, but the 1st and 2nd world are not responsible for giving those in the 3rd world access to the same luxuries as the rest of us....

No, but it would be a better world if they did. And they *are* responsible for giveing access to nexecities...but that's off topic.

Do you even play CIV?!@ At least this concept is evident both in real life and in CIV

LOL...yeah...but so is my point (about it being a nicer world).

Sorry for the bad luck man, but you cant seriously expect a game-maker to sell a product for $5.00 USD a copy in one country, and then $50.00 USD a copy in other countrys. This is being seen right now in the pharmaceutical industry as all of these socialist medical systems negotiate deals with the pharma. companies and and the end of the day, we just get people buying meds in canada and smuggling them back across the border

Uh...I vener said that game makers should sell their products for less in other countries. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

As for the drug example please read my previous post on this (#172)

 

[Frewfrux]

Then, we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I see owning a computer as a luxury, and you don't. I don't think we're ever gonna agree on that one.

No no no no....I see it as *subjective* as to whether it is a luxury or not. You said this yourself in a previous post (diffrent words, granted)

 

[Padma]

Do you think that people are justified to pirate a game for a computer if they can't afford it or don't want to pay for it? I, for one, say no... How 'bout you?

I'm posting from work, so I don't have time to keep up with all the arguments, but, IMHO:

Despite my personal opinion that the current copyright law is way overboard, "copyright infringement", (e.g. "Software Piracy") is illegal, and unethical.

If our current draconian copyright/DRM law could be brought back in line with its original intent, and not just what MS/MPAA/RIAA want for maximum profit, then I would like to think we would see less piracy. OTOH, a staggaringly large number of people will go for "free, and not-prosecuted" over "paid-for" any day.

 

[Siggy19]

It sounds cold to say it, but I agree. Why do I have to subsidize some poor shmuck in China who wants to play the game? He should pay the same price as I do.

You are not subsidizing him. You've bought the game anyway. If Firaxis sells the Chinese version for $5 when it costs them $100,000 to translate it, they make a profit after they sell 20,000 copies (well, a few more, but in that ballpark). Maybe 1 million Chinese would buy the game and give Firaxis a nice dollop of cream on their profit line.

If Firaxis demands that the Chinese pay $50, they'll be lucky to sell 20 copies, which would not pay the translator.

It is not up to US companies to make things "fair".

No, but it may be in their best interests.

Imagine that the average annual income in America is $50,000. Imagine that the average income in China is $2,000.

Is it fair for the Chinese to be charge $5 when the Americans are being charged $50 ? Should they be charged the same or perhaps they should be charged just $2 (same proportion of income) if Firaxis can afford to sell the game profitably at that price.

Fairness, like poverty, is often relative. Should a millionaire be charge $100 for speeding like me or should they be punished the same amount (charged $2,000 say) ?

 

[jimkirk]

Except that a heck of a lot of the development cost of any new drug is actually spent by the Government through the NIH etc or by Charities. The drug companies get the benefits at much less risk than they claim.

In America, recent statistics show the drugs companies spending as much or more on marketing than on research and development. And, of course, the drugs that are marketed most intensively are the newer (thus riskier) and potentially less useful drugs such as for ADD and ED - I am not saying that ADD or ED are unimportant, but humanity thrived for millions of years without discovering that 40% of kids have ADD and I have to admit to wondering how many of those kids are being doped to shut them up and make them behave rather than because there is a real problem.

good point abut add i think the real problem with them is too much tv watching as u said for thousands of years kids were fine till tv started to crap propoganda and trash into their minds making them not be able to sit still for a second

 

[Efexeye]

No no no no....I see it as *subjective* as to whether it is a luxury or not. You said this yourself in a previous post (diffrent words, granted)

Okay. I need to know, where are these people that are making 5 dollars a day, yet need a personal computer in their home to do their jobs?

I mean, we can talk about it in theory all day...