Solo vs. the Barbarians

[The Tyrant]

Older than Dirt: Cool. That's good information to know. I've used spies in barb cities before, but I hadn't tracked them closely like you did. Interesting stuff.

Weltenbrand: I've played that map four times now, and finally got a domination win in 2031. How in the world did you get domination 80 years before that? I thought I was going as fast as possible toward the goal, but I couldn't touch your time.

Granted, I've never played a Diety level game before. Thank goodness my first was solo vs. the barbs instead of against AIs that could have outteched me.

The first time through I found out what having five cities early on will do to your economy. Ugh! It wasn't until my third time playing that map that I realized Great People are key to keeping a strong, growing economy in that game. Oh, and now I know why you chose Montezuma. Good call.

Even properly using wonders and Great People, it was still difficult to expand before State Property. I had to use path denial to expand. Without it, I couldn't keep enough units to properly defend both the cities and improvements. I'm wondering what I could have done differently. Could you share the strategies you used for that game?

And I'm sure someone will ask, so I'll explain what Path Denial is. It is an exploit (known for quite a while) that takes advantage of the way the game's pathfinding algorithm works. If you seal off an area with an unbroken line of troops then the AI can't find a path to any point on the other side of the line. The line cannot leave any openings whatsoever. One little diagonal where they could slip through and all the paths will go through that tile.

What I did was build my economy to the point where I could afford to support enough units, then sealed off an area NW of the capital so that my settlers and workers could move freely in that area. The barbs couldn't find a way to my cities and just wandered around the countryside. Every once in a while one would wander near my thin green line, but even then they usually turned around and headed the other way. Rarely, one would throw himself against my fortified units, but most of the time the line itself just messed with the AI's pathfinding algorithm so much that I was left alone. Without this exploit, expanding was impossible for me on that map.

 

[weltenbrand]

First of all, congratulation for your win!!

You are right, GP are the key (I think).
I built stonehenge in my capital and asigned a priest as soon as possible. Then oracle. Somewhere between the wonders I built my first settlers to settle the rest of the blocked landmass and a city on the island southwest.

< weltenbrand goes to labtop to have exact information >

Just the start:
- 3985: Found capital
- 3880: Mining (hut)
- 3580: Archer tech
- 3265: Fishing
- 2695: Budism, Holy city in capital, more culture (defense!), a happy face and comerce
- 1795: Aha, second city
- 1750: animal husbandry
- 970: farming tech
- 960: Stonehenge
- 820: third city
- 510: the weel
- 190: "tech that enable priests", temple and specialists

+ 60: "tech where you can build huts"
+ 400: First "supermonk" (Great Prophet)
+ 440: 4. city Texcoco
+ 490: Bronceworking
+ 596: Oracle

+ 604: "tech that alouds kolossus" trough oracle. This was my first goal to get the metalidontknow-tech trough oracle.

+ 644: Sailing
some rearch inbetween
+ 1015: swiched to organized religion
+ 1030: 2. supermonk
+ 1065: Finished kolossus
+ 1235: Code of law
+ 1304: Finished Pyramdis (representation)

A surprice for me as well is that I found my 5. city in + 1397 on a island. Wow, thats late.
After a few more citys in direction to the barbs I was able to work more tiles.
The first row of citys never had any improuvments, so nothing to protect, just units inside the city. I also had some seaside citys to use the colossus. Specially the barb citys along the coast where good for the economy (rush lighthouse etc.)
I also get money from religion.

I never researched calendar to keep the obelisk in new towns. At the end I spamed settlers like hell to finish the game.

I hope you can get some idea, what was the difference when you see my start. I dont think there was a special strategy from my side as I had just 4 (!) citys until 1400.

I attach the save a turn before I won, so you can have a look at all citys and the replay.

I still have to finish my inland-start game.

weltenbrand

 

[The Tyrant]

Thanks. I'll have to give that map another shot. This is really an interesting variation of the normal game.

 

[The Keeper]

I gave this a shot, and I think I am doing fairly well. I plan to finish tonight.

I chose Greece as my civ. Counter-intuitive at first. They are agressive for the combat 1 for melee troops. Philosophical for the GP boost. I knocked science down a good ways right off the bat so I could start putting money in the bank - Ill need it later.

I built stonehenge and the oracle for the GP prophet points. I used the orcale to get Feudalism so I could start building longbows early. The first 4 prophets I got, I settled in Athens. This gave me the hammers and gold I needed to continue.

Without going into play-by-play, the priests specialist really helped.

I basically used longbows to conquer one square at a time. After I had 3 LB with garrison 3, I started giving them combat 1, 2, and shock/cover so they could go on the offensive and keep my roads clear.

Eventually using that tactic, I was able to expand to the coast, and box off a portion of the pangea continent that I could begin to work.

That is where I am now.

1850 AD (about) and I am researching code of laws so I can begin to build courthouses. I am running 40% science and making a profit of about 1 gold/turn. I am just now starting to make some cotages becase I now have a safe area for them.

I should be able to go clean out the barbs now. Inflation is killing me though.

 

[naterator]

to really improve the fun tenfold for this scenario, edit the globaldefines.xml. change the animal + barbarian experience limits to -1. this removes the experience cap. i had a few troops with 200+ experience.

 

[Pbhead]

i like to play this you vs barbs, game (I use largest map and pangia for insane amouts of barbs), but i always die before i get a second city, there is just too many of them!

 

[Flak]

Well, a small update as I have tried a few more games. I did some mods: No experience point limit, barbarian levels at Noble and Prince. I've also incorporated another mod that increases the fat-square size to 3 squares out. This game is just too resource poor. I think I'm going to dig in there are change the resource generator to modestly double the concentration.

Anyway, at the higher barbarian levels the barbs found cities nearly immediately after I start mine up. They also grow their cities impressively fast. One thing that has surprised me is that as I conquer these cities later in the game, they all have courthouses. Also, some of their troops can have up to three promotions already. I'm not really sure how that is possible since I'm the only one they could possibly be fighting. I'm guessing they are somehow running civics that could allow this. I think they are also able to build some National Wonders to get these extra xp. But I do wonder if they aren't on occassion fighting each other!

Once you seal them off with path-denial, I really don't see how you can lose. Just use existance denial to start off with money and scouts/warriors, then seal off a patch of land, and that's it. You're first city will grow safely and as large as like before you're ready to expand. Game practically over once that's established.

I will try, for my next game, setting the barbarian level to Diety. I'm really curious to see what difference that will make. Also I may play around with a few things, if it can be done at xml/python level, to see if I can't get the barbs to build siege weapons, and let them advance a bit further up the weapons tree. One thing I've noticed is that the barbs get awfully defensive toward the middle later part of the game. Once their cities start falling they tend to just batch together and await the inevitable. But I also think they are limited by their units (riflemen and grenadiers). With the right units that might change.

 

[FastWorker]

Also, some of their troops can have up to three promotions already. I'm not really sure how that is possible since I'm the only one they could possibly be fighting. I'm guessing they are somehow running civics that could allow this. I think they are also able to build some National Wonders to get these extra xp. But I do wonder if they aren't on occassion fighting each other!

I wonder this too because during the last barb only game I played, I ran across a barb who was healing from an injury that my units did not cause.

 

[naterator]

i also turn up the barb level to noble. also i up the barb free tech% from 3 to 10, give them ALL the traits, and take off all restrictions on buildings and units! it's insanely hard on diety/marathon/huge pangea.

edit-- i should add, i've gotten to the point where i can fend them off no problem, but not really approached a win. well, without cheating at least.

 

[The Keeper]

Getting 60% of the land area will be tough.

In my game, barbs founded Judiasm and built the pyramids. Sadly, they were all the way on the otherside of the world from me.

 

[Varelse]

to really improve the fun tenfold for this scenario, edit the globaldefines.xml. change the animal + barbarian experience limits to -1. this removes the experience cap. i had a few troops with 200+ experience.

Ah thanks for posting this. I was just going to ask how to do it. What do I need to do to change the barbarian difficulty level to noble and allow the barbs to build all units?

 

[naterator]

to lift the barbarian building + unit limitations, first, BACK UP YOUR XML!!! it'll save you a bunch of trouble later. or create a folder in your mods folder with the name you want, we'll go with "rageing barbarians". then create a folder named assets inside that, thena folder named XML inside that. then copy the globaldefines xml file from the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML folder in to C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods\Raging Barbarians\Assets\XML. any other stuff you want to change, you'll have to put in the appropriate folder in your new mod's XML folder, in this case, copy the CIV4CivilizationInfos XML from C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML into C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods\Raging Barbarians\Assets\XML\Civilizations.
OK, i hope that all made sense, now to the tweaking.
open the civilization info's and go to the last civ, the barbarians. it's alot of info. some of which is self explanitory, some of which i have no idea about (i'm no kind of programmer). there's a big list of units and buildings that they can't build it includes this:

<Buildings>
<Building>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_PALACE</BuildingClassType>
<BuildingType>NONE</BuildingType>
</Building>

</Buildings>
<Units>
<Unit>
<UnitClassType>UNITCLASS_SETTLER</UnitClassType>
<UnitType>NONE</UnitType>
</Unit>

</Units>

highlight this entire enormous block, and replace it with:

<Buildings/>
<Units/>

just like the rest of the civs. viola! settlers, chariots, macemen, mech infantry, they'll build it all.
then open up the globaldefines xml and search for BARBARIAN_HANDICAP and change CHEIFTIAN To NOBLE or whatever you want. there's a whole bunch of other stuff you can change that you'll find along the way if you take the time to play around with it. i hope that's complete, if it doesn't work, let me know. oh yeah, open all the files in notepad. it's astoundingly easy to pick up, i found. i have zero knowledge of modding. in fact, i was sick of everybody telling people to "just mod it" if they didn't like something. so one day i made some smartass remark and a nice man (thanks again tombeef) pointed me in the right direction, and i've got all kinds of things i've been playing with. i really think it's more of a tweak than a full blown mod, but it's a bunch of fun. you can also adjust the experience limit in the globaldefines. oh! the one mod i leave on even in my main XML folder, so it's on at all times -- the 5% science slider increments! search for COMMERCE_ in the globaldefines and change the commerce slider percent from 10 to 5. AI uses it just fine (even the barbarians), and allows alot more flexibility.

 

[Varelse]

naterator, thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. Looks simple enough, the most confusing part seems to be setting up the mod folders! lol

Oh and I like the idea of the 5% slider increments. I never would have thought of it, but I can think of quite a few situations where it would have come in handy!

 

[davelisowski]

Sounds like OCC would make this nearly impossible.

 

[elderotter]

I have been trying out this suggestion. Huge map epic speed. As I was laying out my third city - my first two cities were taken. Now, I use the first people mod and randomly got the Piliwni as a Civ - they are they Paiutes/Utes/shoshone. Their unique unit is a very strong scout with healing abilities called a ghost dancer. My third City was protected by 1 GD. He proceeded to kill a wave of barbarians. With the GD protecting the city I
built several Ghost Dancers to protect the Bronze within my city zone. then a worker, to build a mine. I then made a major army of axemen and sent them up and captured my cities one by one(the Barbarians built Stonehenge during this) I also secured an Iron mine. I had that done by 1700 ad. It is 1832 and I have another city. Many units are in the field protecting assets. Some groups of swordsmen are exploring..etc. The barbarian hordes have ebbed a little. I may just survive this. I am wondering if I will have musketmen by 2050 AD tho. I like this.

 

[Spud Boy]

This idea sounds interesting. I am looking forward to trying it after I finish my current game.

 

[naterator]

no problem, Varelse, i hope some people give it a try, because it's worth the time if you're going to try this type of game out. removing the experience limit allows you to have some serious supersoldiers. it's satisfying when you run out of promotions for a unit, in my opinion.

 

[Zombie69]

Here's a real impossible task for you guys :

- Deity level
- Huge map
- 2 continents
- Marathon speed
- Raging barbs
- All victory conditions enabled except conquest
- Here's the trick : one opposing civ
- Everything else standard, and unmodded

If (and that's a big if) the other civ survives, it will discover techs that barbarians will use to kill you. It will also use its Deity bonuses to easily beat you to the space race. That's if it survives.

 

[naterator]

i tried something like that, zombie, although i was WB'ing spies into a bunch of their cities to watch them cope with the barbs, a learning trip through, not really playing a game. it actually took me 3 restarts for the AI civ to survive the classical era. it was a pangea, though, continents would surely make it just about impossible. the best you could hope for i'd guess is the other civ to be killed off and to hold out for a time victory. is a diplomatic vistory possible with no other players? or 1 other player?

 

[Zombie69]

Maybe you'd need to select Mali as the other civ to increase their chance of survival.