Solver's unofficial BtS 3.17 patch

[DanF5771]

Well the PROBLEM is that workers ruin your plans of a national park. So if we can avoid changing such a game mechanic that would be desirable. The least intrusive fix (I think) is to make it possible to pillage your own roads. But you said something about exploits? I didn't quite follow. What's exploitable about removing your own recourses? I think I know what you mean, but I don't quite see how that can be classified as an exploit. And do you really think that is why Firaxis hasn't enabled it?

In what ways do roads ruin your plans for the NP when they have no effect on preserve enhanced forest spread? Would you rather have your automated workers continually build roads which you can pillage the next turn?
With the above suggested modification of the spread code, these roads would only decrease the natural spread before Scientific Method (forest preserve) which occurs rarely. My usual management of my NP-city involves having the non-forested tiles improved anyway (mostly Workshops for good production) until ScM and then clear those tiles so that the forests can spread. And of course no roads/railroads at all!

An exploit would work like this:
You have a roaded Copper mine in your BFC and build a Buddhist Stupa (+100% for Copper) until one turn of completion. Then you whip one pop so that the Stupa has something like 359/300 hammers (no other modifiers like OR or forge). Now two cases:
1. you don't pillage the road under the mine:
59 overflow hammers will be reduced according to the effective multiplier of the last build and scaled down to 29 hammers for the next build.
2. you pillage the road under the mine (mine stays intact with all its good hammers, but you lose Copper):
Overflow will not be reduced for next build, so 1 pop = 60 base hammers!
You have 2 workers rebuild the road the next turn to regain availability of Copper.

OFC you can pillage the mine itself to get the same effect, but you would lose the hammers of that mine for this turn and need more workers to rebuild (even more for Quarries and Oil Wells), so pillaging roads makes this much easier.

This is what I remember from threads about hammer overflow tricks, I think back then it was even more usefull as chopping forests was giving directly modified hammers, but I may also be wrong on this whole thing...

This is related to the protective walls with stone trick, only that you don't do it for the cash but for the hammers.

 

[Caboose]

Nonono, really, I see how communicating about these things over a forum doesn't really work that well unless you know the person.

I didn't mean in your case. I meant "that's the general problem here". Well, actually, yeah I do prefer your way. It's up to Solver though.

 

[DanF5771]

Nonono, really, I see how communicating about these things over a forum doesn't really work that well unless you know the person.

too right! especially when trying to communicate in language which is not your first (my case) about stuff involving code of a programming language which you don't really speak (my case again) .
But it's fun.

It's up to Solver though.

Yeah, where is he?

 

[Caboose]

Taking an 8 hour break from the forum?

But yeah, I agree, a lot of goin on

 

[MusX]

One things that I've found in my last game.
My vassal ragnar (random personalities) had a taoism holy city without holy shrine on a island. I gave him a great prophet as a gift on the continent and he didn't use it to build holy shrine. He already has all techs that he could get from great prophet except future tech of course which he was unable to research at this moment. So it looks like he join this great prophet to some city. Don't you think AI could be improved here?

 

[Refar]

The shrine probably actually was not worth it - if there are only a few cities in the religion... Usually the AI likes shrines, if the religion is at least somewhat widespread, so i dont think there is any problem.

 

[Wolfshanze]

One things that I've found in my last game.
My vassal ragnar (random personalities) had a taoism holy city without holy shrine on a island. I gave him a great prophet as a gift on the continent and he didn't use it to build holy shrine. He already has all techs that he could get from great prophet except future tech of course which he was unable to research at this moment. So it looks like he join this great prophet to some city. Don't you think AI could be improved here?

If you wanted him to use it for the shrine on an island, you probably should have moved the prophet to the island FIRST... then gifted the unit to him... the AI has a habit of using a Great Person in the nearest closest friendly city the GP comes from. If he would have had to load the GP on the boat, that was probably the deal-killer for sure.

I'd bet you big money if you had gifted the prophet to him in the city you wanted him to use it in, he would have constructed the shrine... hate to say it, but his misuse of the prophet was probably due to you gifting it to him on the continent instead of the island you wanted him to use it on!


P.S.
Never vassalize somebody with a holy city... you'll never get it! Always capture the holy city, THEN vassalize them!

 

[Woody1]

It's very simple actually. The theocracy civic doesn't allow the spread of foreign religions by natural spread or foreign missionaries and the human player can easily circumvent this restriction by gifting the missionary. Seems like a restriction that isn't working and thus needs to be fixed.

But, again, if you feel it's a cheat, then don't do it. If it really is an "exploit", then it's only something that a human player can exploit in a single-player game.

You shouldn't need a fix to stop you from gift missionaries to a theocracy civ. Just resist the urge to cheat, if you feel it really is cheating.

The AI doesn't use that "exploit", nor would it work in a multiplayer game against other humans. A fix just isn't needed, especially considering that not everyone agrees it really is an exploit.

On a related note...
You're allowed to build non-state missionaries and use them in your own civ, while you're in theocracy. I'm not sure if you consider that broken or not, but it seems like Firaxis intended that feature.

 

[Willem]

I think it should work the opposite way, by which I mean you right click on a tile and choose the improvement you want to build there and an automated worker would get to it eventually. It has all the control of what gets built that you get from manual workers, but without having to pick which worker will do it and when and it what order. That's very much a civ 5 idea though.

Yes, that's more like the way I'd prefer to see it done. But yes, we'll have to wait for Civ 5 for that. Maybe longer.

 

[r_rolo1]

It's very simple actually. The theocracy civic doesn't allow the spread of foreign religions by natural spread or foreign missionaries and the human player can easily circumvent this restriction by gifting the missionary. Seems like a restriction that isn't working and thus needs to be fixed.

I think everyone agrees that this feature is not working as intended. What people are arguing is what to do about it. Bh opinion was that it should not be allowed that Theo AI received missionaries, Wooody1 thinks that it doesn't need more than a gentlemans compromise of not using it if you really don't want to, I already expressed my opinion, and I really don't know where Firaxis stands, except that they don't agree with Bh.

said this I don't agree with Woody. This IMHO stands in the same ground that the CS slingshot, cossacks, GW for early GE points,.... This are all game unbalances, that do not add anything to the game and that infact can take all the fun of it. So they should be fixed.

 

[Roland Johansen]

But, again, if you feel it's a cheat, then don't do it. If it really is an "exploit", then it's only something that a human player can exploit in a single-player game.

You shouldn't need a fix to stop you from gift missionaries to a theocracy civ. Just resist the urge to cheat, if you feel it really is cheating.

The AI doesn't use that "exploit", nor would it work in a multiplayer game against other humans. A fix just isn't needed, especially considering that not everyone agrees it really is an exploit.

I'm not talking about an exploit or a cheat specifically because those qualifications are extremely subjective.

I'm talking about one of the main elements of the theocracy civic that isn't working. The theocracy civic prohibits the spread of non-state religions by foreign missionaries. However, this is effectively meaningless as you can gift the missionary to the AI and they will always use it for you. It's an element of the civic that isn't working. It's a bug.

If the programmers at Firaxis really think that foreign missionaries should be able to spread a non-state religion to a theocratic civilisation, then just simply remove that limitation from the theocracy civic. However, I really don't think that is what is intended. I really think that it is supposed to be impossible to actively spread a non-state religion to a theocracy.

On a related note...
You're allowed to build non-state missionaries and use them in your own civ, while you're in theocracy. I'm not sure if you consider that broken or not, but it seems like Firaxis intended that feature.

I have no problem with that. The issue is with a foreign civilisation actively spreading a non-state religion to a theocratic civilisation.

I think everyone agrees that this feature is not working as intended. What people are arguing is what to do about it. Bh opinion was that it should not be allowed that Theo AI received missionaries, Wooody1 thinks that it doesn't need more than a gentlemans compromise of not using it if you really don't want to, I already expressed my opinion, and I really don't know where Firaxis stands, except that they don't agree with Bh.

said this I don't agree with Woody. This IMHO stands in the same ground that the CS slingshot, cossacks, GW for early GE points,.... This are all game unbalances, that do not add anything to the game and that infact can take all the fun of it. So they should be fixed.

Firaxis didn't touch the subject in their patch. They didn't change it so that it's impossible to gift a missionary of a non-state religion to a theocracy and they didn't change it so that a foreign missionary may spread a non-state religion to a theocracy. They just left it hanging in the middle. I think that we as a community must make a choice whether it should be possible to spread a non-state religion to a theocracy or that it shouldn't be possible. Now the game rules seem to suggest that it shouldn't be possible while it is actually allowed. Seems buggy to me.

By the way, I'm not really arguing with you here (as we have a similar opinion), just clarifying my opinion.

 

[Wodan]

I really think that it is supposed to be impossible to actively spread a non-state religion to a theocracy.

Then shouldn't we also be talking about making it so the civ won't accept gifted cities if they have a non-state religion?

Wodan

 

[Solver]

Easy guys... easy

So for the next version I'll include some of BH's changes. Just gotta let things slow down a bit first

 

[Roland Johansen]

Then shouldn't we also be talking about making it so the civ won't accept gifted cities if they have a non-state religion?

Wodan

You mean spreading a religion to a theocratic neighbour by giving them cities that have another religion then their state religion? In that case, you aren't really actively converting their citizens with missionaries to a non-state religion, you're giving them new citizens with another religion.

One could argue that a civilisation type game with inquisitors that are buildable under a theocracy and that remove a non-state religion could make an interesting game. And that an AI running a theocracy should actively remove non-state religions. That could be fun, especially if multiple religions in one city would lead to problems. But that is more something for a mod or civ5.


However, this is all besides the point. I was arguing that the theocracy civic tries to prohibit the spreading of a non-state religion by foreign missionaries. But because gifting the foreign missionaries to an AI civilisation has the same effect, this element of the civic isn't working. So either the theocracy civic shouldn't prohibit the spreading of a non-state religion by foreign missionaries or it shouldn't be possible to gift a missionary of a non-state religion to a foreign theocratic civilisation.

 

[Woody1]

I'm talking about one of the main elements of the theocracy civic that isn't working. The theocracy civic prohibits the spread of non-state religions by foreign missionaries. However, this is effectively meaningless as you can gift the missionary to the AI and they will always use it for you. It's an element of the civic that isn't working. It's a bug.

Maybe you're right. I'm just saying it a very minor thing to be concerned about, since it's only a bug that the human player can exploit. And he has to go out of his way in order to exploit it.

The simplest fix is to simply not use the exploit.

I might consider that reloading a turn if a battle doesn't go your way, to be an exploit. I don't think a patch is needed to remove save & reload. I might also consider that using worldbuilder to give yourself free money is an exploit. I don't need a patch to block worldbuilder after 4000 B.C.

I have no problem with that. The issue is with a foreign civilisation actively spreading a non-state religion to a theocratic civilisation.

Interesting. Because I'm inclined to think that is a bigger exploit than gifting missionaries. It's probably intended behaviour, but still seems to go against the idea of theocracy.

IMO, theocracy should prevent spreading of non-state religion completely, whether by foreign or domestic means. (But, I'm not looking for a patch for that.)

 

[Balderstrom]

There are a lot of things that are "exploits" and are necessary for the game to function.
Seeing ALL the tech's you know, that other AI's have. Knowing all their resources, whether you've explored or not. Knowing exactly how much espionage they do against you.
You still have to build the missionaries, get them to the civ in question, which you'll need open borders with and possibly open borders with civ's intervening. So you go thru all that and call it an exploit cuz the AI might/will use the donated unit?

I think exploits are a little easier to accomplish than that imho

And from what I recall of the Bhuric's thread this was there.

I really don't need a game to hold my hand.

What a number of people are saying, its an exploit, and unless the game stops them from doing it they will knowingly use something they consider an exploit. So just worldbuilder and put missionaries in every single AI city - now your religion is everywhere.

I don't consider it an exploit, apparently Firaxis doesn't either. If the patch removes the ability to do so, ok I guess I wont even have the option to do it.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Maybe you're right. I'm just saying it a very minor thing to be concerned about, since it's only a bug that the human player can exploit. And he has to go out of his way in order to exploit it.

The simplest fix is to simply not use the exploit.

It's not the exploitive part of this issue that I find a problem. It's just that the theocracy civic doesn't actually prohibit the spreading of a non-state religion by foreign missionaries like it says it does.

You walk the missionary to the city where you want to spread the religion and instead of pressing the button spread religion, you press the button gift missionary. That's it.

Interesting. Because I'm inclined to think that is a bigger exploit than gifting missionaries. It's probably intended behaviour, but still seems to go against the idea of theocracy.

IMO, theocracy should prevent spreading of non-state religion completely, whether by foreign or domestic means. (But, I'm not looking for a patch for that.)

If I had been the designer in Firaxis who had designed the specifics of the theocracy civic, then I would have made several changes. But that's something for a mod or something. There are even several mods out there that change stuff. But I want to stay within the confines of an unofficial patch.

 

[r_rolo1]

It's not the exploitive part of this issue that I find a problem. It's just that the theocracy civic doesn't actually prohibit the spreading of a non-state religion by foreign missionaries like it says it does.

You walk the missionary to the city where you want to spread the religion and instead of pressing the button spread religion, you press the button gift missionary. That's it.

Not quite.... it was like that in 3.0X , but in 3.13 the AI atleast would try to bring it to a more populated city nearby ( normally 1 turn away ). It was not the equivalent of simply spread the religion.... and ( IMO ) a indicator that it was meant that the AI would think a little of what to do with the missionary.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Regarding the Theocracy... preventing the spread of non-state religions is basically a Penalty it has, like the -gold from Pacifism.

Look at getting a Non-state religion (better yet, one that is entirely forign) into your city
1. Temple (Happy, Culture)
2. Monastery(Science, Culture..lets you build missionaries)..
3. Cathedral (Culture)
4. AP votes
5. AP hammers
6. membership in AP (avoid being subject of crusade/jihad/holy embargo)


Cons
1. Shrine gold for someone else
2. Espionage bonus for someone else
3. AP win possibility for someone else
4. AP unhappiness for defiance/susceptibility to AP votes

The only major cons come in the case of an AP.. and that has some significant bonuses as well.

#3 is the only significant one
#4 con can get weighed out by #4 pro

Now if they wanted Theocracy to Work like Mercantilism they could have done it (no non-state religions are Active) they didn't so you helping the AI by giving it your religion is perfectly fine (since I'm sure the AI does NOT choose Theocracy+Religious Purity in an attempt to avoid an AP win.. If a human player is they can delete the missionary)

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Unit gifting was totally disabled in FfH because of exploits. Someone in a FfH thread posted on the topic of that mod's unit gifting exploit and it applies to this just as well.

Kael said that there is a difference between cheating through worldbuilder and through something that the designers themselves provided. Many new players would actually be proud when they discover the exploits with gifting, as they figured out a way to play better and more efficient. Then they would discover how broken that is and rightfully start complaining. Any way, there won't be any gifting back until it's all fixed. And honestly, letting players 'police themselves' is absurd and it is not in any way a foundation a game should be designed on. Especially not a game with brilliant design like FfH.