Some improvement, but discovery and mapping of whole world is still too early

[bit_cynical]

How about a percentage chance for early boats to be affected by storms giving random damage up to 100%

Could be lessened by having air and/or water mana

 

[aimlessgun]

Wasn't there a mechanic in...I want to say Civ2, where stuff like triremes would have a % chance to sink out at sea.

That wasn't exactly a very fun mechanic though.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah I hope it's not the same.

 

[Pazyryk]

Suicide galleys, yes (I think up to civ3 actually). I hated them but couldn't stop myself from abusing them. Made mapping the whole world by 1 AD very possible.

I think my problem is that I'm too aggressive in exploration... It's like Sid, Keal, Selphi and so on keep giving me a game that can't be set higher than "noble" difficulty for exploration. (Then don't play, right? But I can't help myself.)

 

[Seven05]

We had similar issues on the The Ancient Mediterranean mod with exploring work boats.

That was fun to read since I worked on the pre-BtS version of TAM

Back then all it took to slow down expansion was to go into the leaderheads file and increase the thresholds for map trading and open borders. Since very few units could enter rival territory and nobody wanted to give you their map unless they really liked you it was possible to play for a LONG time without knowing what was in the great black expanse of nothingness on the other side of those mountains or even WHO was across that ocean.

 

[Pazyryk]

Back then all it took to slow down expansion was to go into the leaderheads file and increase the thresholds for map trading and open borders. Since very few units could enter rival territory and nobody wanted to give you their map unless they really liked you it was possible to play for a LONG time without knowing what was in the great black expanse of nothingness on the other side of those mountains or even WHO was across that ocean.

This addresses two problems that I didn't identify in the original post:

1) The AI is too free with it's maps, trading them away for gp change. Maps were often the most valuable plunder from a captured ship during the age of discovery. A good map that reveals all civs to me might go for 300 gp in the game, although it might up my trade 100 commerce per turn (if it adds whole new civs to my trade network, especially one across a "sea bridge" that counts as overseas). Conversely, if I am investing a lot into exploration, I should get more for selling my maps.

2) The current AI in Wildmana will often agree to Open Borders even at hostile (although some leaders won't agree even at neutral attitude). I guess that is an individual leader setting and I like the variation. However, I think that overall it is a little too easy with this agreement. (I often play Flauros as a kind of vampire merchant king, and I have no problem setting up open borders with nearly all civs including good ones. It should be a little harder or even impossible to bring in the alignment opposed civs.)

 

[Neomega]

You know why ships couldn't travel far in real life? Storms. What if the further you were away from cultural borders the more likely you are to get caught in a storm...

Or maybe there should just be more sea serpents and such.

I agree that map trading should be very strictly limited only to very good allies. IIRC, the Portuguese did not trade their African maps to anybody for centuries.

Exploration really is so much more fun when your units are walking through the various wild lands and empires of erebus. The little workers even seem to have a little more personality that way, and the world seems just a bit more alive.

 

[graywarden]

That was fun to read since I worked on the pre-BtS version of TAM

Back then all it took to slow down expansion was to go into the leaderheads file and increase the thresholds for map trading and open borders. Since very few units could enter rival territory and nobody wanted to give you their map unless they really liked you it was possible to play for a LONG time without knowing what was in the great black expanse of nothingness on the other side of those mountains or even WHO was across that ocean.

Hello Seven05,

I thought I had seen your name somewhere. some of your old files are still on the server... ;o)
Ambrox and I have been the last two to do any actual modding and testing, last version testing was about three or four months ago now. Im always ready to lend a hand if they can get anything going.

 

[Pazyryk]

I always wanted to play TAM. But there wasn't a current version when I started looking around at mods, and then I found FFH. I hope someone re-boots it after civ5 comes out.

 

[Fafnir13]

You know why ships couldn't travel far in real life? Storms. What if the further you were away from cultural borders the more likely you are to get caught in a storm...

We do have the blizzards. Perhaps another mobile feature could be added that can only spawn in the upcoming deep ocean terrain. The storm feature would need to be able to move a bit faster then blizzards, given the larger space. It would also need to move in groups/fronts to be effective at impeding navigation. It could damage ships and have other interesting features. Maybe cause ships to randomly move when they take the damage. Non coastal ships could literally get stranded in the middle of the ocean if that were in place.
As a defense, fair winds would fit perfectly, automatically destroying any storm the fair winded ship runs into.

 

[Lord Katana]

I'd like to add to the above suggestion... Since storms are natural phenomena they could also damage all those pirate privateers. It will even out the constant stream of enemies at the gates. In other words, lets make the sea itself dangerous, not so much the inhabitants.... This would also work well with a kind of lessening effect that the coast is saver, which sounds realistic

 

[jrandrew]

Let me third or fourth or whatever the idea of storms. They could be like scaled-up versions of the Illian blizzards, perhaps covering a larger area? I say a larger area so that you couldn't just see one coming and avoid it, it would need to be like 4x4 or something. Perhaps even spawning an occasional hostile lightning elemental to kill off weaker ships like galleys?

I think one of the coolest meta-ideas is adding a whole weather layer to Civ/FfH/Wildmana. The Illians already have blizzards, there are some ideas floating around in other threads regarding Sidar and Mist, Hidden Lands are taking over for the Scions.

Having giant storms that float around over the ocean would be really interesting, perhaps also large mountain ranges should have semi-permanent storms or mist or something? Like Caradhras from Lord of the Rings?

 

[Fafnir13]

As long as we're talking mountains and weather, volcanoes could be spawning ash clouds. Not sure what they'd do (other then ground all Kuriotate flying ships within a 500 square radius), but it would at least make volcanoes less boring.

 

[MrManNo1]

If volcanoes spawned ash clouds, an interesting feature would be to make ash clouds fog-of-war any tile they're on, and spawn baddies. That way, it would simulate nobody seeing through the ash, and it would simulate the eruption waking up sleeping monsters in the area.

 

[Sephi]

Spoiler :

Some folks like having the whole map revealed very early (say turn 150) and some even want the whole map revealed at the beginning. If you are one of those folks, you’re going to hate this entire post.

For me, exploration is the most fun aspect of the game. I quickly loose interest when this phase is over, which is all too soon in my opinion. Also, I know it is kind of stupid to mention “realism” in a fantasy game, but the fact is that the much of real world remained a mystery (from any one civ's point of view) until very recent history. In Civ4 (and FFH and Wildmana) we have:

• Whole large continents or interconnected continents circumnavigated by little boats. I mean really!… imagine if a pharaoh of Egypt put out two little reed boats, one reaches the Atlantic and takes a left, the other a right, and they meet again at the Bearing Straight after circumnavigating all of Africa, Eurasia and the Americas (OK, maybe only Africa and Eurasia if your map doesn't have a “sea bridge” to America).
  
• Columbus reaches the New World. He is initially confused about the place, thinking it is India, but then offers to trade maps with the local natives (“these pathetic primitives don’t even have Agriculture!”) and wham!, no need for any further effort and no need for all that confusion about whether California was an island or not.

Again, I don’t really care about realism in a fantasy setting. Yes, maybe Erebus is just a small continent, much smaller than Eurasia. But my point is that exploration should be hard. There should be blank areas on maps for a long time. Erebus should be a dangerous and mysterious place.

Here are some of the problems (starting with the worst, in my opinion) that lead to premature termination of the discovery/exploration phase of the game:

1. Map Trading. All that hard work balancing animals and barbs (which is most excellently balanced in Wildmana) is pointless when you don’t have to explore anyway. It’s not at all realistic (see my Columbus example above… or just ask yourself: Did Greeks or Romans have Cartography? If so, why did they not have complete maps of Eurasia and Africa?). But this is not my concern here. What happens in a game is that once several civs get Cartography, then all AIs trade maps amongst themselves so that everyone has exactly the same knowledge, at least within a continent. I only need to trade some pathetic little tech to some pathetic little civ to gain this knowledge. It’s like an instant “reveal map” button that is almost free (or picked up as change in a tech exchange). Things that are free are not valued. Suggestion: remove map trading or move it to Astronomy. You might say Optics, but then you just create my “Columbus” scenario above (basically, premature completion of the Age of Discovery about 5 turns after making the first caravel).
   
2. Explorer. These are just too effective and too early. Yes, sometimes they get eaten by those pesky lizards. But with some care and luck (and that exploit where you pick skeleton crew and then longshorman) you can circumnavigate your home continent. I’d say I'm successful at circumnavigating my home continent in well over 50% of my games with just 2 explorers. Suggestions: delete this unit and change fishing boats to 1 movement. (I know a lot of folks hate the idea of fishing boats exploring and have suggested some kind of hard mechanic to prevent this. I don't agree. I don't see any reason at all, based in lore or realism, why they shouldn't be able to explore. But they should suck at it, which my 1 movement should ensure.)
   
3. Other naval exploration. More hazards needed both on coasts and at sea (I have high hopes for the Deep Ocean coming in 8.21). Galleys and caravels should be at constant risk, less so for galleons, frigates, and even less for queen-of-the-lines. You should need Astronomy and Iron for really safe travel.
   
4. Birds. These would have been first on my list except for the recent fix (can’t re-base to non-team cities; thank you Selphi!). However, they still act as an important map revealer that is a little too early. Also, hunters are pretty powerful and well-balanced without hawks. Suggestion: move hawks to Animal Mastery. (I think this is a better fix than trying to tweak visibility, etc. I like hawks, but I think advanced cartographer birds should come later down the recon line.)
   
5. Early scouts and “safe time”. Just some tweaking of the “safe time” needed. In general, I think exploring on land in Wildmana (after this “safe time”) is just about perfectly balanced. It’s darn hard, as it should be. Regarding the “safe time” that happens at the beginning of the game, I’ve kind of learned to depend on this as a crutch. I always make a 2nd scout as my first production, knowing I will have a little while to explore with perfect safety. I guess my only objection is that I can almost always map a major portion of the continent during this time, and sometimes (maybe 50%) get all the way to the other side of a very large continent. (Should an early scout from Greece have a 50% chance to reach the east coast of China? I don’t know. But Erebus doesn’t seem very dangerous by comparison.) Suggestions: I wish the transition from “safe time” to full on “crazy dangerous” started a little earlier and was a little less sudden… it feels a little arbitrary and a little too reliable. In general, more hazards (animals, etc.) that stay (usually) outside of cultural borders (I don’t particularly want more hoards attacking in my culture borders).

I know there has been some implementation of hinterlands (in RiFE?). I haven't tried this so I don't really know. I'm all for this but I thought I'd keep my list above restricted to existing features.

interesting analysis Pazyryk

For all those who don't like exploration, maybe there should be an option to reveal the whole map at the beginning.

I hope you understand that this is not an option at all. Who would want to have the whole map revealed at beginning?

A "No Map Trading" GameOption could be added easily. Not too sure about if it is worth it.

I would like to reduce the amount of land explored by scouts in the “safe time”, but not sure how to do it. Maybe simply reducing scout movement to 1?

 

[graywarden]

Spoiler :

interesting analysis Pazyryk



I hope you understand that this is not an option at all. Who would want to have the whole map revealed at beginning?

A "No Map Trading" GameOption could be added easily. Not too sure about if it is worth it.

I would like to reduce the amount of land explored by scouts in the “safe time”, but not sure how to do it. Maybe simply reducing scout movement to 1?

I thought that was what all the barbs were for, to eat scouts... haha... maybe im a minority here, but my serious exploration ends with the insertion of the animals, beasts and barbs. By then I generally know where my strategic points are, my closest neighbors and resources. I then go from explorer to builder and establish my borders. Then after worry about exploration, once i feel comfortable where im at, and then its thru sea exploration as a rule. Withthe current tweaks should be a little more difficult then it once was.

Perhaps start with animals on the map at game start, but just a few to discourage heavy exploration. this will force the AI to think defensively quicker.

Then phase in the beast and barbarians after.

A model similar to what FFH once was (dont know about now, havent played in awhile for some reason. haha), I always felt they had a nice balance at game start in this regard.

 

[tatva]

If you are going to implement sea storms like that, think on some improvements for Lanun. They must have advantages about this. I think now they can be experts in navigating inside the storms, without suffering the effects or not all the effects.
This will make them real rulers of the seas.

Also for adventures wining conditions, as they will have these abilities, the condition can be charting all the coasts of the world.

 

[Calavente]

I concurre with Pazyryk and graywarden.

The issue is not in the early exploration. with barbs, animals and all, the farthest you can explore early is quite limited. and well balanced : you explorer the neighborood and not too far. you discover some nearby civs and some few ressources : you can plan your early 2-5 cities. but then you are limited and all is well.

The issue begins with map trading :
the guys you only know from a bit of their border will exchange their map, giving you access to a lot of territory your scout could never get to and they even exchanged to som e guy you don't even know and oups, a few turns later of this double triple exchange.... you clear all the continent.

2groups of ideas :
1) maybe map trading should come later. or only if both civs have the tech, or split the kind of map that are tradeable :

compiliation of those three ideas :

maybe first with showing city spots, (actual tech, the famers tell you : "there is da bîg city Zere on da north, and a zmaller fillage near da coast")
then cultural borders; (writing as they their is a lot of information and they can't just tell it to your ambassador, it has to be written.)
then rest of map. (optics + trade : giving a neigbourg your map is a coorperation of sort, needed for trade; it was a matter of economics and rivalry in the real world; you want to keep this secret for you only, giving it to other only if you have a real gain for it.)
Then the civs would want to sell the ifferent kind of maps for different prices and at different "like you /like you not" modifyers) :
1st : same conditions as actual :
2nd : same conditions as for open borders (or needs an open borders agreement + a cost)
3rd : same condition as for giving techs (friendly)


2)
Having a counter for each square you "explored" (oh, once again, a counter !):
4pts per land tile, +2 point per coast tile, +1 point per sea tile.
Everyone knows the counter of the other known civs (for gameplay + lorewise, sailor/merchant boasting about all the lands ond by their empire).

Have the civs resent telling you their map if you have more "exploration points" than them, and have them crave for your map.
(thus if you get a civ to give you their map, and all is new territory, the next civ will be less eager, as you are supposed to know more land)
Have it that the more the civ is evolved, the more protective it will be for it's map (as they are more sensitive of economics and knowing good land to settle and protecting one own "natural preserve" for future growth)

on the + side, have "exploration points" helping you on things : better dungeon results / new events / special "explorer" option on existing events, free promotion sentry/sentryII or SentryIII(impaired sight?) on your second best recon unit when you get "1000 points or 20% of land mass discovered"....etc), maybe have a secondary counter for the tiles you discovered "yourself". and some specific events for this counter...etc

 

[Seven05]

I would like to reduce the amount of land explored by scouts in the “safe time”, but not sure how to do it. Maybe simply reducing scout movement to 1?

I'm not sure limiting movement to 1 would do much. The elves and dwarves would have the fastest scouts due to the way 'double movement in x' was implimented. And the clan would still have their world spell, which is good for revealing a HUGE amount of land even with 1 move scouts.

You could push scouts back a bit so that nobody started with them, but that would make the start of the game pretty boring.

You could also try something like not letting any non-recon units reveal the map so you would have to scout with scouts, I know that I use warriors and I see the AI doing it often enough too.

The problem with birds isn't when they become available it's a combination of their flight range and the fact that you only need to target a peak for their recon and they will reveal a lot of territory very quickly.

A long time ago a few of us released mod comps that caused non-visible tiles to revert to unexplored. It's pretty easy to do and you could add in limits to fine tune it so only certain tiles would have a chance to revert (only unoccupied, specific terrain types based on techs, etc). Not everybody will like that though as some of them will become obsessed with keeping as much of the map revealed as the possibly can so they'll micro-manage themselves to death

 

[Pazyryk]

I hope you understand that this is not an option at all. Who would want to have the whole map revealed at beginning?

My statement was intended as sarcasm to annoy those who disagree with me.

A "No Map Trading" GameOption could be added easily. Not too sure about if it is worth it.

Not worth it because it is a trivial change? It's a big gameplay effect, even if the mechanic is trivial. If you want a more substantial game option, how about a challenge option called "non-trivial exploration" (more sarcasm there; I couldn't think of a better name):

1. no map trading
2. no explorer unit
3. move hawks to Animal Handling

Many more possibilities, but these would have a large gameplay impact with easy implementation.

Or, conversely, you could make these the default rules and make a game option "trivial exploration" that puts it the way it currently works .

I would like to reduce the amount of land explored by scouts in the “safe time”, but not sure how to do it. Maybe simply reducing scout movement to 1?

I don't think much of this idea. Scouts are about perfectly balanced and this would gimp them entirely. I'd like to see animals show up earlier, before barbs, perhaps even at turn 3 or so. If you could do that but also disable the animal rage (for a while), then you would end the "safe period" outside of cultural borders without adding extra threat inside cultural borders.

The problem with birds isn't when they become available it's a combination of their flight range and the fact that you only need to target a peak for their recon and they will reveal a lot of territory very quickly.

I think you're analysis is outdated here, Seven05. It used to work like this a long time ago. Now, it doesn't matter if you "scout" a peak or flatlands. The same area is revealed. Try it. Also, flight range has been changed to 1 in wildmana (and I'm not sure but I think visibility range reduced also).

My idea of shifting hawks to Animal Handling isn't just for the sake of delay (although it does do that). More importantly, it puts this powerful exploration tool a little more deeply in the "recon" tech branch. Those that commit to this tech branch early should gain a powerful exploration advantage. If you're getting this tech late in the game, then the hawks are probably not going to matter much anyway.

A long time ago a few of us released mod comps that caused non-visible tiles to revert to unexplored. It's pretty easy to do and you could add in limits to fine tune it so only certain tiles would have a chance to revert (only unoccupied, specific terrain types based on techs, etc). Not everybody will like that though as some of them will become obsessed with keeping as much of the map revealed as the possibly can so they'll micro-manage themselves to death

I don't like this as a general thing, but it would be flavorful in some specific instances such as Sidar lands, Nox Noxis lands, or some special Dark Forest area.


Also, here are some general comments on "Deep Oceans" in 8.30:

1. It's good to see the return of sea monsters.
2. It's having only a very minor effect (almost none at all, really) on exploration. I'm having no trouble navigating around sea monsters with my caravels, and none have been killed by a sea storm yet (not sure if that is even possible).

Suggestions:

1. Change sea monster movement to 2.
2. Remove sentry as a starting promotion for caravels (I'd still let them take it). #1 and #2 together would make sea monsters a viable threat to caravels.
3. In addition to minor damage, storms should move caravel one or two tiles. This would potentially set you back in your progress or might put you near a sea monster.
4. Adding storms as a visible feature (as discussed by others above) would be very nice too, as long as this doesn't make it trivial to just steer around them.