Someone is cheating here?

[Tatran]

Moonsinger I think Qitai is right.
In your test it looks like the AI has
skipped his production in 4000 BC.
I'm sorry but I can't verify your saved
game,because I don't have PTW.
It sounds very logical to me Human move+
automated moves,AI moves,human production,
AI production end year.Computer sets up all
the finished production at the beginning of a
new year.So your production is finished,but also
the AI's production,but you are the one that first
may do your moves.
I don't know how smart the AI is in PTW,but in
this Japan game Persia did some good moves
like in previous games.First GL that build a wonder
and second the UN votes.I stayed alert when it
came to the votes.Persia was number 2 on the histograph
so I thought he would be my opponent in the voting.
I skipped the first round (I wasn't sure to get a majority)
and a few turns later Persia demanded Fission,I refused,
Xerxes declared war.I tried to make with everyone an
alliance against Persia only Egypt refused (they wouldn't
never make such a deal).Egypt was number 3 on the histograph.
So I waited for the next voting round.When it came to
the votes not Persia was the opponent but Cleopatra.
Guess a few things changed during those few turns.
And probably that's the reason Egypt would never make
such a deal.Persia and Egypt made an alliance against me.
So the outcome of the voting was clear 4-2(of 7).I won.

 

[Moonsinger]

Tatran,

I don't think Qitai was right (because my testing doesn't support his theory; I'm sure he will do that test himself and will have something to say later) but he did bring up a good point. Basically, I think Firaxis (the maker of Civ3) has decided to give the completion of the Great Wonder to the human player in case of the close-tie-breaker. This is really an exception to the rule. Please note that Qitai can't be right...because if you play Civ3 on a very slow computer, you will see that the AIs won't have anytime to move in between. At this point, I think the tie breaker for the completion of the Great Wonders as follows:

1. Human player goes first (as they always do).

2. The human player investigate the AI city and found out the the AI production for for its Great Wonder is completely full. Since the AI hasn't moved yet, the human player is actually looking at the AI production box of the previous turn. So basically, the human player is completely 1 turn ahead of the AI at this point. Therefore, (because the human player go first), it would be impossible for the human to beat the AIs in completion of the same Great Wonder the use of a great leader, but this isn't the case, see my next point.

3. Now, the human player decided to use the great leader to rush the same Wonder that the AI is supposed to complete this turn. Note: since the human player is one turn ahead, they can't possibly beat the AI on the Great Wonder, right? But it doesn't work that way. Here is where the exception come in to play. Before the AIs are going to finish any Great Wonder, it would look ahead into the future of the human player by 1 turn and see if our production box for the same Great Wonder is full or not. If our production box is completely full, the Great Wonder will always go to the human player no matter what. If our production box is 1 turn away from completion (that mean looking ahead into our future by 2 turns), the AI will finish its Great Wonder. Basically, the human player is the cheater here, not the AI. However, we can't really blame the human player in this case because Firaxis was the one who designed Civ3 to work that way. This is the first exception to the rule that favor the human player. I suppose 1 point for us and zillion points for the AIs so far...but we are still winning.

PS: The way only way to find out for sure is to ask Firaxis. Therefore, please remember to ask them the next time you see them in the chatroom.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Tatran
In your test it looks like the AI has
skipped his production in 4000 BC.

This is impossible! No one (human or AIs) can skip a production cycle. Unless you set your cities to produce Weath, even in the most corrupted city, you would still gain at least 1 shield and it will go directly into your production box (queue). Basically, there is no way for human player or any AI player to skip his/her production.

 

[Qitai]

I am lazy and I think I can trust you on your test .

From your test that the AI has zero production when you investigate them in 3950BC, the only orders I can think of are

Human production, Human move, AI production, AI move or

Human move, AI production, AI move, Human production


The reason for the above conclusion
1) Base on your test result, AI production must be before AI move and after human move
2) AI moves between human move and human production (this should be obvious from observing the AI moving after you move)
3) Human settles before AI settles ==> human move before AI move.
(Doesn't the above sounds like one of those IQ quiz questions?)


And in that case, it does contradict the point about the wonders. So, your explaination is the only possibility I can think of.

 

[JavalTigar]

Whoever says the AI doesn't cheat is full of crap!

While testing a unit animation, on deity level, sent several sith knights with blitz, hidden nationality, radar and All roads towards London.

I destroyed London, watched as a settler & (1) spearman (I saw them move) created a new London. The next turn 1 settler, 2 workers, and at least 5 spearman, and 3 horsemen poured out of a brand new city in one turn!!

I only wish I had his economy!

Computer cheats! Always has. Always will.

 

[Qitai]

Did you destroy his only city? And did you have AI respawn turn on? In that case, when the AI creates a new capital, it will have it's initial bonus unit again. To avoid that, simply turn the AI respawn off. If you do not have that option, you need the patch. The respawning feature is just to balance the game in case AI gets killed too early, but nobody likes that feature. So, technically, this is not a cheat. So, turn off the respawn AI feature.

 

[aeldrik]

I don't know if what you saw is a cheat, but it always happens that way at Deity level, especially when the first city is founded, the AI then usually gets 10+ Units... not a cheat, a help (the only ways they found to make it harder for us...)

 

[JavalTigar]

I still call <expletive deleted>

If I don't ten free units for every city then its a cheat. I understand it is part of the difficulty settings but it is still a cheat in the AI's favor.

If everytime you played chess & your opponent got 3 extra queens you would call CHEATING!

I just don't like to hear people say it doesn't cheat. It does! It makes trades with other Civs that it would go to war if you offered the same.

AI Persia: I have Gunpodwer! What do you have?

AI China: I got 2 gold...

Ai Persia: Sounds great!

That is cheating! (Period) I rest my case.

Moderator Action: You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't need to resort to that kind of language. --Padma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Qitai]

Did you read my post? Just turn off the AI respawn when you start a new game and the problem you mention will be gone.

Do you ever read? The AI trades tech with each other. Just because you do not understand doesn't mean they cheat. Don't blame everything that goes wrong in life on others.

 

[anarres]

JavalTigar,

Maybe you have different ideas of what 'cheating' is compared to the rest of the world, but why are you getting so uptight about it?

You have said how you hate it when people say the AI doesn't cheat, buy you yourself are ranting about how it does cheat in a much more agressive way than anyone is defending it.

 

[Muchembled]

Moonsinger :
I immediately built the embassy in Berlin and saw that their production queue is 100% empty.

Because they are in anarchy.

Moonsinger :
The human player investigate the AI city and found out the the AI production for for its Great Wonder is completely full.

It is impossible but it doesn't matter.

A turn is :
Human move
AI move
Human production
AI production

That is :
4000 BC - Human move
4000 BC - AI move
4000 BC - Human production
4000 BC - AI production
3950 BC - Human move
3950 BC - AI move
3950 BC - Human production
3950 BC - AI production
...

 

[aeldrik]

to JavalTigar... if you don't like it that way, the easiest solution for you: Play on chieftain level....

EDIT: as long as there aren't any real AI, the only way to increase a difficulty level in any game, is to gibe the AI players advantages that are "off the rules"... if you wan't to call it cheating.... I wouldn't, especially not the trading part, since that is a standard rule setting. What would be cheating for me, would be if, for example the AI could see stealth units...

 

[JMK]

Originally posted by aeldrik
to JavalTigar... if you don't like it that way, the easiest solution for you: Play on chieftain level....

I may have another suggestion
Give your CD to someone else who will enjoy the game like it is

 

[Arathorn]

@Muchembled:

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for investigating. Anarchy would indeed explain things. I'd meant to pull it up myself, but I hadn't found time to do so yet.

Arathorn

 

[Moonsinger]

Just want to let you know that I was wrong! I just re-test the game and found that their production wasn't empty. The reason they were empty before because they were in Anarchy like Muchembled said!

So basically, Muchembled was correct and I was wrong!

 

[Arathorn]

...and my respect for Moonsinger goes up another notch...

Arathorn

 

[JavalTigar]

To the moderator. Sorry about the <expletive deleted>. I should not have taken it that far.

I did read and understand the above posts. and I still play the game even though I know it cheats.

All computer/console games cheat.

In Rise of Nations/Age of Empires/Warcraft/ect......they all do. I have watched the computer move 15 units & build 5 different buildings at the exact same time. Because their is no mouse delay.

That's their edge. I get it.

But you can't tell me that the algarithms they use to make computer chess games can't be incorperated into this type of game.

In chess, the AI looks over the field and picks the best possibble moves. For any given situation their are a certain number of options. It doesn't get to change the rules to increase the difficulty. It doesn't get to let the king move 5 spaces.

If the rules change for only one player, its a cheat. PERIOD

Heres a little experiment for you.
Let 4 people play Monopoly. But give 3 an extra $1000 and let them buy property at half price. That's not cheating in your book, RIGHT. That's just a setting, RIGHT. No one would be "cheating". While your at it let those 3 roll twice too.

See how long it takes for the 4th person to freak out.

 

[JavalTigar]

Qitai: "The AI trades tech with each other. Just because you do not understand doesn't mean they cheat"

So when you play and you get a tech that puts you ahead in military might you immediately trade it with everyone else for no cost what so ever?

anarres: "Maybe you have different ideas of what 'cheating' is compared to the rest of the world, but why are you getting so uptight about it?"

If that is not your idea of cheating... what color is the sky in your world?

 

[Turner]

@JT - What you're talking about, the AI getting extra workers/units, the chess opponet getting three queens, the monoploy players getting extra money/half price properties, is not cheating. It's called a handicap. And if the rules are agreed upon before starting the game, then it's not cheating, it's handicapping.

Obviously you still feel it's cheating. But if the handicaps weren't put in, the AI on Deity would have as much of a chance at beating you as it did on Cheiftan.

Yes, there are a lot of games out there that cheat. Warcarft/Starcraft come to mind with this. I'm sure there are others, too. I'm pretty sure my pocket poker game cheats, as well. But there is still no concrete evidence that the AI in Civ3 cheats. Of all the millions of games we've played here, all of the things we've seen the AI do, every single one has been a documented feature. And since it's not gong outside the rules that have been set up (and by you starting the game, agreeing to) then it is not cheating.

But I do feel your pain. It certainly does feel like the AIs cheating, and it can appear that it does. But it's not.

 

[Qitai]

If you want a fair game, play regent. Don't play higher level.

When you start a game agreeing that the other party with start with bonus, that is not cheating. Cheating is when they do something that is beyond the agreed rules. In the game GO, there is this thing about giving your opponent 9 stones before you start. It is what a master choose to do to even out the playing field when they play against a weaker opponent.

How sure are you that they trade without cost? How much do you know about what they have on the bargaining table?

One simple example is that an AI may have resource that you have but you did not sell to a second AI. The first AI then trades that resource to the second AI for a tech. Would you be able to detect this? Another example would be they both discover the same tech on the same turn. A third example would be they sold something to another AI for some gold and immediately trades that same gold to the first AI for the tech. A fourth example would be they sold world map for a tech. In each of the above cases, it is either very difficult or impossible to detect what is traded. Also, I have done each of the above in my trades so if there is a thinking AI, he might think I am cheating when I sometimes gain 8 tech without spending a single cent in a turn through careful trading.

In almost all the cases where I bother to investigate, I can actually figure out what was traded on their trading table. There was a point in time when I use to keep a record of what each AI has on the table each turn. So, I was very clear what was traded most of time when I do that.

When you can trade better than I am, then come back to tell me that AI cheats in trade and I may believe you.