Soren - new tech trading system has ruined the game!

Originally posted by dfhny
It is now March, so I thought 1.17 would be ready to try out. Started a game at Monarch level (where I was doing fine thank you on 1.16) using a huge map and went to work. First three civs I met would not trade tech with me at ALL. They never did this on 1.16, I could always negotiate some kind of reasonable trade...now just "no thanks." Then, further on up the map, I find that Persia has 7 ancient era techs!!!!

On Monarch level, your money is being discounted (like paying in pesos). Set your money to 80% or so. Buy techs until you can switch to Republic, or until you can expand your tax base through conquest. Also, you could try an expansionist civ. They have been considerably improved in 1.17f.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb

So to my mind I'd rather go back to something which was play tested and was known to work and be fun. I.e. 1.16.

1) Go back to 1.16
2) Reapply the bug fixes
3) Reapply the "j" command but review all the code and fix the glitches
4) Ditto for other small improvements
5) Start over on the culture flipping fix and get it to feel right this time.
6) Start over on the pop rushing fix. Make unhappiness accumulate but don't increase the turn count. Make it impossible to add workers to very unhappy cities.
7) Remove the AI trading during our turn
8) Poll the community on the bombardment change. Reapply it only if a majority think the new way is more fun.

I wholeheartedly agree SirPleb. I believe that 1.17f has brought us a step forward but at the same time took us two steps back. I'd revert to 1.16f, but since I play the GOTM and Apolyton's Tourny I'm stuck with 1.17f.

After reading through this post and remembering other posts I've read; I'm struck by the number of us who spend large amounts of time playtesting, brainstorming, and coming up with effecient and creative improvements for this game. I'm also aware of, and thankfull for the Firaxian involvment of these forums. However, I think Firaxis should take this one step further and involve us more in a prepatch way rather than postpatch.

There are plenty of posters here that would do a fine job of playtesting for Firaxis. Maybee Firaxis could setup a consultant type arrangement with some of the most thoughtfull posters, in which future software releases could be traded for playtesting and brainstorming. That way these people with a passion for this game; who spend huge amounts of time and brainpower to improve on this epic game; could actually be part of the Firaxian loop. I'm certain that a proactive move like this would greatly benefit Firaxis and the entire Civ community.
 
I agree with SirPleb as well.

As is, i don't have much desire to start up a new game, as a large part of trade and diplomacy is missing. Until late mid game, the player is doing well if he can match the AI in research progress. Being even in the tech race takes away from the AI demanding tribute. Sure they can have my territory map and 18 gold. I'd be much more likely to go to war if they demanded a tech.

Each game is playing more like the previous, than a new game, taking away from the replay value. Theres far too many variables for each game to play exactly the same, which is what makes civ so great, but a lot of diversity has been sucked out of it.
 
In my current game, I have a dependable ally in France and I am up at least four techs. Meanwhile, my traditional enemies are upset because I won't give them replaceable parts. But that's ok. My scientists are working on a great new invention -- motorized transportation.
 
Towards the end of the middle ages you (or i do anyway :) ) begin to pull ahead in the tech race. Ancient, and the majority of the middle ages are playing quite the same.

Now it takes a considerable amount of time to play to the industrial ages, so i only have a couple of games for comparison, but my current game looks like it will turn out much the same way.

I do have quite a few games i've played up to the point to a few years after chivalry becomes available. These have been fairly similiar. May be worth noting that i'm playing on emperor.
 
Originally posted by No.Dice
May be worth noting that i'm playing on emperor.

I have noticed that the higher the level, the more linear and the more abstract the game becomes. I usually play Monarch or Emperor.
 
I played a bit more in my test game and another one I just started, and I am starting to believe that the main problem with the AI trading stems from the fact that techs are discounted so that they are ridiculously cheap for the last civs to know it (I am again only talking about the Ancient era, since it becomes very hard to track trades and map switches between AI players later in the game).

On a few occasions I saw the AI player trade a worthless map (i.e. one that they had switched the turn before and contained virtually no new information) for a tech (a cheap one, but still). However, more often did I see AI players with 0 gold and behind in the tech race and suddenly again at par with the other AI players.

I think there are several reasons why this happens. In the very beginning the AI can easily catch up with the others by trading maps and communications. They will do this very aggressively, and even on Archipelago maps will the AI have communications to all players very soon. This gives them lots of opportunities to trade and tech-whore.

The AI puts 100% science as long as it hasn´t any upkeep costs, and because all AI expand roughly the same speed, they will all discover techs at roughly the same pace. Also, they all seem to pursue roughly the same tech tree. So, when one civs discovers a new tech, it trades it to those who can pay for it. Usually, it does not trade the new tech with civs with 0 gold in the treasury. However, since most civs now know the tech, the 0-gold civs will very fast discover the tech by themselves. This can look as the broke AI got the tech for free ("as a gift") when it in fact discovered it. The decreased number of beakers is usually not visible to the human, since he is often reasearching other techs or has minimal science to give the tech in 40 turns.

Consider this example. An AI player with 100% science has put 60 beakers into a tech that cost 100 beakers. It makes 5 beakers per turn, meaning discovery in 20 turns. The human player researches the same tech but puts his money into taxes (4 gold, 1 science). For the human, the discovery will take 40 turns, and by this time he has accumulated 12 beakers. Now, one AI discovers the tech and trades it to 3 other. With 8 players, the cost drops to 50% of the original (4/8). The AI player now has 60 beakers, but only 50 are needed, so he also discovers it the same turn. The human player still only has 12 beakers out of 50 and does not notice any change in the number of turns to discovery. Also notice that this difference is even more noticable on the higher levels when the AI only pays a fraction of the cost for a tech compared to the human.

When techs become more expensive later in the game, the effect will not be as visible, and the human can often get the chance to take the lead.

On the easier levels, this fact can be used to your advantage. Start as expansionist, race for all goody huts and make every effort to take a small tech lead in the very beginning. Make contact with all AI civs as soon as possible. Now, talk to all AI civs every turn and ask what they´d pay for your techs, one by one. Track the difference in offers from turn to turn. If the offer steadily decreases, you know that the AI is researching the tech. Sell it to him just before he discovers it (when the AI only offers a few gold). Trade it to everybody that has anything valuable, starting with the AI that has the most money. All AIs have now been putting 100% science into a tech they then instead bought, and they have to start from scratch with a new tech. With the money you can also have a high science and buy a few libraries and keep your capital big (not cranck out settlers all the time). This keeps your tech lead.

Of course, the AI will every once in a while discover a tech you don´t have. Don´t panic. Unless you really need it, wait until all AI civs have the tech. You can buy it very cheap after that (this also works on the higher levels, of course).
 
Originally posted by Hurricane


Soren from Firaxis said the AI does not demand tribute from other AI:s, so that´s not what happened. I think they just sold their world map again. :mad:

I am pretty sure this is exactly what happens. It seems if an AI civs map is worth one gold more than that of another, the other civ will trade a tech to get it, especially when they do not even have one gold in their treasury.

The AI in 1.16 was much better, even with it trading on your turn.
 
Originally posted by Zachriel


They do. I buy most of my techs on the payment plan.


I have a screenshot right here saying this:

I am playing as Greeks (making 345 gold per turn) trading with Persia (Gracious)


I want from them: Ecology I offer: 1000 gold per turn


I tried it with other amounts, and gold per turn does not work. This is without any patches though. That might be the reason.
 
I played my Regent level game yesterday, and I got to say that it's even easier than Warlord. I even won earlier than I was in Warlord. Although, I wouldn't argue that it's primarily because I had a better idea of how to execute my strategy after I played Warlord.

The key is, if you want a peaceful victory, you should stick to it -- eat your pride and accept all ridiculous offers. Sometimes you can counter-propose, if you can, then ignor the offer and give the AI 1 gold as a gift -- in fact, if you can afford to, pay the AI 1 gold every turn. Also, I didn't make any offensive, artilery, naval and air unit -- just defensive. This reduced the maintanence cost significantly.

I do agree that you have little chance to lead in tech in the early ages. And, gone is the day that there's a civ that's seriously behind.

Basically, my strategy is to get to build United Nation as fast as possible. If I build it, and I keep everyone happy, I don't even have to be a super power to win the diplomacy race.

I am going to try Monarchy tonight and see whether this strategy still works.
 
Just wanted to chime in with SirPleb. Bring back 1.16 and all its flaws. I don't mind if the AI trades on my turn, as long as it will put an end to this lock step progression down the timeline.

I really have to wonder if there's any point to all this chatter. Is anyone at Firaxis looking through this long string anymore? Maybe SirPleb should start a new thread titled something like "Fixes for the science race - for Firaxis' immediate review"

I'm happy this thread has spurred so much talk. Now if only the fickle gods of Firaxis will hear our prayers. I know they're doing their best. I just hope they aren't forging ahead with other "improvements," after severely undermining this fantastic game in 1.17f.

How sad will we all be if 1.18 fixes the j command, includes a more versatile editor which lets the player add new nations, finds a way to let bombers sink boats in a balanced fashion, but still includes the 1.17 tech non-race?
 
Reichsmarshal,

If you're only making 345 gold/turn, nobody will believe you can afford to pay 1000/turn, and will automatically reject your proposal. Now if you had offered something you could actually afford, like 300/turn, the results might have been different. I've made gpt deals many times to buy techs. But as long as you can't afford to meet your end of the bargain, the AI will refuse to do business with you as if you were some kind of mutant with two colons.

Hurricane,

Very impressive stuff!! My hat is off to you. I now have a much better understanding of how the AI diplomacy works in this game.
 
On the easier levels, this fact can be used to your advantage. Start as expansionist, race for all goody huts and make every effort to take a small tech lead in the very beginning. Make contact with all AI civs as soon as possible. Now, talk to all AI civs every turn and ask what they´d pay for your techs, one by one. Track the difference in offers from turn to turn. If the offer steadily decreases, you know that the AI is researching the tech. Sell it to him just before he discovers it (when the AI only offers a few gold). Trade it to everybody that has anything valuable, starting with the AI that has the most money. All AIs have now been putting 100% science into a tech they then instead bought, and they have to start from scratch with a new tech. With the money you can also have a high science and buy a few libraries and keep your capital big (not cranck out settlers all the time). This keeps your tech lead.

I would definitely give it a try. But when I was playing Regent, I noticed that if I discovered a tech this turn, and didn't sell it (and I did check that all other civ hadn't gotten it yet), more often than not, the AIs will all get it the next turn.

I personally gave up on this and decided to join the trading party -- I traded every tech I discovered to all civ in the same turn. If they couldn't pay, I gave it out as a gift.
 
Having played 116 and 117, I have to agree with the original point of this thread....the game is a LOT less fun with the tech trading the way it is now...not harder, just less fun.

I do, however, think that the simplest way to fix that would be to assign minimum values to trades that would be acceptable. With the applied penalties to the player via difficulty level, this should work very easily.

Example: (note this is off the top of my head, these numbers probably aren't balanced) The AI discovers an Ancient Tech..he is willing to sell it to any other AI, on that turn, for a minimum of 100 gold...or 5 per turn in an agreement. In the Middle Ages, raise that price to 200..and double it again, each era, so that at the end, 800 is the least amount the AI will sell a tech for.

Now, you modify this simple formula with just a few modifiers: if the tech allows the building of a Wonder that hasn't yet been built, double it..if it allows the building of a new military unit, double it...and if every race in the game has the tech, except one, half it.

Apply these rules(or something similar) across the board, and it will still be more expensive for the human player to buy tech from the AI than the AI from each other, due to our gold being discounted..but the AI will not accept minimum Map deals from each other for techs, keeping the field diverse.

On another note, I have found that if I am researching a tech that the others have, they will nearly always trade it to me for just my map when I am down to one turn to go..meaning it takes one less turn as a rule to research from behind, even on 4 turn techs that they all have...just research 3 turns, and trade the map for it. The only time I have ever been refused on this was in the latest GotM, on Astronomy. I have no idea what was different there, other than I am getting soundly abused in tech in that game!
 
Doh! Of course, a diplomatic modifier should probably be thrown in there also, your friends should certainly be discounting you more than folks that are furious with you!
 
Originally posted by JeffNebraska Is anyone at Firaxis looking through this long string anymore?
I hate to say it but I'm starting to wonder if they are lurking at all. There are a few threads recently which I really hoped Firaxis would make some comment on, even just an acknowledgement that they see us and are thinking about it. I think that with the name you gave this thread, and with the kind of activity on it ever since, if they are lurking this is one they'd be reading!
 
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