SP6 - Deity Training

[Sirp]

It's nice to hear that some other people have a work ethic that is just as bad as mine, Renata I'm posting this from work...

Good looking turn. To imagine that we were saying how peaceful the game had been a while ago, and now it's awash in bloodshed! I just hate it when *one* civ streaks ahead of the pack in technology on Deity. Oh well, we have a strong enough economy to compete.

The way I see it, there are a couple of approaches we could take:

- buy techs off France and/or research some ourselves. What we've been doing so far.
- try to plant a spy in France and steal techs for ~3000 each instead of buy them for ~7000 each.
- start a war with France but not fight ourselves, getting others in with alliances. Research ourselves and try to get ahead in techs.

We'd love to get tanks before most others, and then take out some of those border oil supplies with them, and then hold them waiting for MAs. We could possibly take out Japan and/or the Ottomans with tanks.

I'm thinking a combination between strategies 2 and 3 above could be good: plant a spy, and if it fails and she declares on us, then we try option 3.

-Sirp.

 

[Renata]

I'd definitely like to take Ankara and Shimonoseki as soon as we have some tanks. (And before either of those civs gets motorized transport.) Assuming none of the oil sources moves around (possibly a big assumption considering the way things have been going this game) that'd leave the Ottomans without oil and Japan unable to sell it to them - we could then go through them and Germany at our leisure without having to worry about tanks on the counterattack.

I like the France plan.

Edit: Our biggest potential pitfall at this point might be happiness. Most of our larger cities have absolutely zero leeway on happiness, so we'll wind up needing the lux slider early on. I meant to check which civs had Bachs and Sistine, but I forgot.

Oh, and another thing: I think we're actually in a position to match France in research right now if we want to, for as long as we're at peace. It took France 7 turns to research steel, and we could get steel right now in six with only a small (100 gpt) deficit. We still have a several libraries and unis left to build, too, including some in very high-commerce cities (Washington! New York!) while France is probably maxed out.

Renata

 

[Sirp]

Yeah happiness sounds like a problem. But, we have HEAPS of cash, so we can easily afford to go to 10% luxuries which should easily solve all happiness problems. But, I have two questions:

- can we not buy any luxuries at all, off anyone?
- are there any luxuries nearby that we can take by force?

I seem to remember the Ottomans had some furs we could take, but are we already buying them off them?

Otherwise, we can just budget for having to spend 10% on luxuries for a while. Shouldn't be a problem really.

-Sirp.

 

[Renata]

Nope, no luxuries available from anyone. I checked every turn after our gems deal evaporated, and no dice. I have no idea about nearby luxes - definitely it should be a priority. Even if they're luxes we're already able to trade for, the breaking of trade deals may shake free a lux we weren't able to trade for previously.

(yet another edit: No current deals with Ottomans or Japan, but nothing available from either of them anyway.)

Renata

 

[Matt_G]

Originally posted by Sirp
Yeah happiness sounds like a problem. But, we have HEAPS of cash, so we can easily afford to go to 10% luxuries which should easily solve all happiness problems. But, I have two questions:

- can we not buy any luxuries at all, off anyone?
- are there any luxuries nearby that we can take by force?

I seem to remember the Ottomans had some furs we could take, but are we already buying them off them?

Otherwise, we can just budget for having to spend 10% on luxuries for a while. Shouldn't be a problem really.

-Sirp.

I downloaded the save and had a look. Luxury wise we have 3 native and are importing 3. The 2 we don't have are furs and gems. Osman has both.
Ankara, which has his only source of oil has the gems, and it's on our border.
Iznik has the furs; we have to go thru Sinop to get there, and it's next to Istanbul, which means Osman is sooooooooo dead!! :die:

I am all for planting a spy in France and stealing our way to parity. (We only need Steel to be at parity)
By then our other core cities can have Uni's and I'll bet a sawbuck we can self research to the Modern Age at a 5 turn per tech pace.

First to tanks and squash Osman like the cockroach he is.

Ditto with Toku. Remember Pearl Harbor!!

This game is in the bag team. We would have to work at losing this one.

BTW, Osaka has Bach's and Berlin has Sistine.

Edit:I like self research better. Stealing is cheaper as long as it's successful, but more importantly, if we self research we control what we get and when we get it. If we steal we have to wait for Joan to research it and hope she's researching what we want.....etc.
Of course we can always do a combination of the two.

 

[Sirp]

Ok I'm rubbing my hands together with glee now We want tanks, but we also want radar towers (they come with radio right?) as they provide a significant offensive advantage. You plant them on the border just before your tanks go in and they give you an attacking advantage.

I predict Japan will remain behind, and we'll take them out with tanks or MAs. We will not forget their treachery when they brutally backstabbed us. Yup we should be able to research the last IA techs at 5 turns each. It'll slow down when we hit the modern age, but we only need 3 techs to get to MAs. Then we'll want to start researching toward the Internet so we can trigger our golden age early on in the invasion proceedings.

If our economy can build enough tanks though, and we have enough cash to upgrade them all, the game should be said and done in less than 20 turns after we get MAs. Perhaps as few as a dozen.

-Sirp.

 

[Borealis]

Got it.

 

[Borealis]

1000 AD (0): We can't buy any luxuries- I'll look every turn, just in case an AI-to-AI deal lapses, but it looks like we'll have to 'acquire' them in some other way once we get Tanks.

I go with the plan to fleece the French, but skip planting the spy... the embassy will work right now. Tech steal for ~2900gold:

The science advisor is told to direct our non-existent science portion of our income towards Radio (fyi- researching Radio ourself would take 12 turns without a deficit). We are now at tech parity with France, and they didn't get any of the money.

Then, as the RNG seems to be working in our favor, I try planting the spy and it works. Does it cost less to use the spy? Should I have planted the spy first?

Domestically, we are racing to build cathedrals, etc. to deal with our happiness problems. Chicago gets told to build a Cathedral, as it's on the edge and will riot at the first sign of WW. A few other cities are also swapped to Cathedrals, as Motorized Transportation will come up pretty quickly if Joanie stays in Democracy. 10% lux is all very well and good but it's more economical to build Cathedrals for the problem children to avoid mass WW if the RNG hates us. Some cities building universities that could use courthouses/don't have banks are also swapped over.

1010 AD (1): Denver courthouse->arty.

1020 AD (2): Buffalo harbor->arty. Detroit courthouse->infantry.
Cincinnati cathedral->arty.

1030 AD (3): Washington cathedral->library. NY university->stock exchange. Boston library->hospital. Chicago cathedral->infantry. St. Louis cathedral->infantry. New Orleans cathedral->university.

(IT): Lux deal renewed with Germany- 785g for Wines. I pay cash this time around in case he dies in the next 20 turns, which is a non-trivial possibility considering the forces arrayed around him and his distance from Panzers. He probably won't declare on us while he's busy with the others, and we need the lux.

1040 AD (4): Seattle police station->cathedral. San Fransisco cathedral->police station. Houston police station->cathedral. Salonika university->hospital. Dallas market->harbor.

(IT): Iroquois and Ottomans sign a peace treaty.
Japan and Germany sign an MA against the Ottomans.
France and the Iroquois sign an MA against Germany.

1050 AD (5): Washington library->university. Memphis bank->stock exchange. France is still in Democracy, and unless the Germans manage to deal with the other threats and attack them, will probably stay in Democracy. I start research on Combustion, due in eight turns at a slight deficit, as we have plenty of gold to steal tech down the other path already.

(IT): Sapporo, a Japanese city with coal in its 2nd tier cultural radius, starts whipsawing between Babylon and Japan.

1060 AD (6): NY stock exchange->infantry.

1070 AD (7): Boston hospital->cathedral.

(IT): Japan reclaims Sapporo.

1080 AD (8): Washington university->infantry. Salonika hospital->cathedral. New Orleans university->infantry. Dallas harbor->bank. Baltimore cathedral->bank. France has Radio...

(IT): Japan and the Iroquois sign a peace treaty.

1090 AD (9): San Fransisco police station->library. The Babylonians try to plant a spy in our capital, and get caught.

1100 AD (10): Houston cathedral->bank. Combustion is due either in 3 turns at +266gpt, or 2 turns at -110gpt.

The AI is very touchy and constantly allying and breaking its treaties. Unless a civ goes to Democracy, I recommend not trying to plant a spy unless we want to provoke a war. France is currently the only civ in Democracy, and we have a spy there.

Also, we have 13 turns of Wines owed to us by Bismarck, and will lose them when someone takes either both of his coastal cities or the capital. However, we'll probably be able to get Wines back from whoever takes it, with the current candidates being the Iroquois and the Babylonians. As we didn't pay any ongoing payments for the alcohol, we won't suffer a rep hit for any premature cancelling of that deal.

A large stack of artillery and infantry is assembled at Denizli for the future tank commander's enjoyment.

1100 AD

 

[Renata]

Borealis, spymaster extraordinaire! Wheee, way to go!

So what is it, two more techs to motorized transport after combustion? So no more than ~ 20 turns to tanks, and probably less. And with these wars still ongoing, very unlikely any civ but France will have them too by the time we build a few dozen. And France has no oil.

Renata, smelling blood in the air ....

 

[Sirp]

Great looking turn Borealis. Yeah I agree, build cathedrals in potential problem cities. We're cruising along very well now, and the AIs are locked in those deadlocked, brutal, world war 1 style industrial age wars, as the AIs do.

Capturing as many resources as we can will probably be priority when we get tanks. Oil, rubber, and luxuries.

Stormrider is up, and I might get to see some action come my turn.

-Sirp.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by Borealis
Does it cost less to use the spy? Should I have planted the spy first?

(IT): Lux deal renewed with Germany- 785g for Wines. I pay cash this time around in case he dies in the next 20 turns (...)

As we didn't pay any ongoing payments for the alcohol, we won't suffer a rep hit for any premature cancelling of that deal.

As far as I know, the spy is supposed to be more effective at spying. Stealing tech through a spy isn't cheaper than through a diplomat though.

The second thing I don't understand is that if Bismarck loses his trade route, he should get the rep hit, not you. You are the one paying inn gold after all, and that isn't broken by losing a harbour. So if you expected him to lose the trade route, I'd think it would make more sense to pay in gpt, as that would mean the payments stopped with Bizzy's breaking of the deal, while otherwise you lose the entire upfront payment for less than twenty turns of wines. Or am I missing something ?

 

[Sirp]

Hmm...Stormrider? Have you got it? You're up!

I know you're around because you posted in another thread...

-Sirp.

 

[Skyfish]

Jack I think it's actually a bug, if you have a gpt deal and the route gets broken you also suffer the rep hit !

Sirp can you confim ?

 

[ProPain]

Originally posted by jack merchant

The second thing I don't understand is that if Bismarck loses his trade route, he should get the rep hit, not you. You are the one paying inn gold after all, and that isn't broken by losing a harbour. So if you expected him to lose the trade route, I'd think it would make more sense to pay in gpt, as that would mean the payments stopped with Bizzy's breaking of the deal, while otherwise you lose the entire upfront payment for less than twenty turns of wines. Or am I missing something ?

In my experience it doesnt matter who's actually responsible for breaking the deal, you get a rep hit anyway.

example, private SP game yesterday: I have a deal with Carthage I bought a tech for iron and dyes. Ottomans wipe em from the face of the earth. I have had a perfect rep untill now, honoured all my deals and was trading tech's for lux all the time. No one wants to trade tech for lux any more after this incident, just tech for lump sum

I've experienced this a lot. AI breaks route -> Human get's rep hit (AI also??? Í don't know). When I have a chance I give away a safe small city to the civ in trouble when their last city is about to fall.

 

[Skyfish]

Indeed that's the way it is...thanks ProPain.

Other example is when you have an alliance where you give a luxury as payment to an AI : if you or someone else destroys the AI before the end of the Alliance, your ally will consider this as a broken deal and you get a rep hit !

I really hope they can fix this one day as it is quite broken.

 

[Stormrider]

My apologies. I must not have refreshed my view on the postings list and did not see this was updated.

Any way, I have it and will post by tomorrow

 

[Stormrider]

No can do . R/L is a drag. I have to be skipped for this round.

Stormrider

 

[Sirp]

ok then I got it.

 

[Sirp]

oh and Skyfish et al, I understand the reasoning is that it's impossible for the game to know whose 'fault' it is when a trade route gets broken, so they assume it's the player's. If you have a deal that involves the AI paying up front, they will consider you having broken the deal.

If you have a deal that involves, say, you paying them for luxuries, and the route gets cut, then you might have done this to your advantage: you might want to declare war on them, or you might have hooked up your own source of luxuries, and no longer want their's, so you cut it off. That's still you breaking the deal according to the game. There is a little method to the madness, but only a little.

-Sirp.

 

[Sirp]

(IT) 1100AD: The State of the Union is reviewed, and our empire looks very-well oiled. There are two shortages that I can see though:

- we have just 16 workers
- we have 0 settlers

Workers are going to be needed when we go to war. We're going to need lots of radar towers, among other things.

settlers are going to be useful to settle cities to gain cultural control in some areas, and to get us to domination sooner. After Boston has finished its cathedral, I will pull some more workers and settlers out of it.

(1) 1110AD: Boston Cathedral -> Settler. Seattle Cathedral -> University. San Francisco Library -> University. Denizli Marketplace -> Police Station.

I flog Electronics to Germany for 2 workers, ~500 gold, and 32gpt.

(2) 1120AD: Combustion -> Mass Production. Salonika Cathedral -> Harbor. That city has gotten to be productive pretty fast!

France only wants to offer 3860 out of her 6441 gold for Combustion, so I suspect they're researching it. Once we have tanks, we could declare war on them and RAZE their two cities near us. That'd send war weariness skyrocketing and almost certainly force them out of representational government.

(3) 1130AD: Japan and the Ottomans sign a peace treaty. Japan and Babylon do the same.

I do NOT renew us selling Babylon and France lux deals. We don't need their stinking money anymore. We have enough of our own.

A spice deal ran out. Hmm..with Babylon. We give him his ivory + 600 gold for spices. We also buy furs from Osman.

(4) 1140AD: France has discovered Combustion now.

(5) 1150AD: France and Germany sign a peace treaty.

(6) 1160AD: Ivory deal with France is not renewed. Giving us 14 gpt for our precious ivory indeed! This charity is closing, and our elephants are going to be allowed to live happily.

(7) 1170AD: Some idiot of a sipahi is going across our territory. Not sure we want a war yet, so I let him past, covering up our workers with infantry.

(8) 1180AD: Mass Production -> Motorized Transport. Joanie will only offer us 2860 for it, so she must be still hot on our research trail. I'd been hoping she might research flight for us! Here's the tech situation:

France - 1 behind
Iroquois - 2 behind
Japan - 3 behind
Germany - 3 behind
Babylon - 3 behind
Ottomans - 4 behind

It looks like the Scientific civs will struggle to make it to the modern age, which is what we want.

(9) 1190AD: The Germans are gone! Done, finished, beaten, vanquished. One gone, five to go. France has attained parity with us once again. The world is at peace now. Peace?? Gargh! We don't want that! Still, no signs of any of them going back to representative governments.

(10) 1200AD: ...

Techs are now:

France - parity
Iroquois - 2 behind
Japan - 3 behind
Babylon - 3 behind
Ottomans - 4 behind

Hopefully we can broaden our gap with everyone but France, and then France out of representative government. It'd be nice if they researched Flight for us though. I suggest after we can get tanks, build about 20 of them before attacking and razing the French cities. Try to destroy their radar towers first, and build our own radar towers on the border within 4 tiles of the city so you get a combat advantage from them.

We have our own settlers with which to replace their cities. Razing the cities will send war weariness of a Democracy through the roof and force them to revolt.

Good luck Matt!

-Sirp.

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