Spain in Transition (1975)

[Lone Cat]

1. What happened to Falange after Francisco Franco passed away? is there any internal rifts among his goons? Did Franco himself appointed his successor... to rule Spain in the same title as what he was.
2. Who brought monarch of Alphonso lines back?
3. What happened to Carlism during Franco's last days? were they really assimilated to Falange? were they really loyal to Franco or really waited for his death to start another civil war? AFAIK the republican movements were pretty eliminated back then. if not because of Juan Carlos of the Alphonso lines, the republicans will be nailed forever.
4. And what was the plan for Carlist once Franco was dead? will they kill the other rivaling factions within Franco's camp?

 

[Tee Kay]

1. What happened to Falange after Francisco Franco passed away? is there any internal rifts among his goons? Did Franco himself appointed his successor... to rule Spain in the same title as what he was.

The Falange was already kinda weak when Franco died (this was deliberate; Franco didn't want a strong political party in any case). After his death it just splintered and withered away (still exists though, in several forms).

2. Who brought monarch of Alphonso lines back?

Francisco Franco. He specified Juan Carlos as his successor.

3. What happened to Carlism during Franco's last days? were they really assimilated to Falange? were they really loyal to Franco or really waited for his death to start another civil war? AFAIK the republican movements were pretty eliminated back then. if not because of Juan Carlos of the Alphonso lines, the republicans will be nailed forever.

Suffered the same fate as the Falange; greatly reduced relevance and splintering.

4. And what was the plan for Carlist once Franco was dead? will they kill the other rivaling factions within Franco's camp?

Not that I know of. In any case nothing materialised.

 

[Lone Cat]

1. Why doesn't Franco want any strong political Fascist party even if it could favor him. or is it post WW2 politics. back then he became vassals to the USA. (to keep republicans away.... of course!) and he has to follow the American adviser/master if he wishes his regime to survive. right?
AFAIK. Soviets had its own plan for Spain back then. i'm not sure if Stalin still backed the republican or did he found a new spanish communism movement elsewhere?
or did he fear another civil war which he might lose.
2. Then Francisco Franco is really servant to Alphonso lines. and he simply wants carlist dead. or didn't he found any of the Charles line fit to rule Spain after he's gone?
or did the American advisor supports Alphonso lines of the Bourbon clan rather than Charles line and then coordinated with Juan Carlos instead of another descent to Charles VII
3. IF Carlist is to start another civil war. who will they lend supports from?
I don't think Soviets will back any monarchist movements but i'm not sure If China may do?
then again. China is yet to build a navy. to venture as far as europe.

 

[Tee Kay]

1. Why doesn't Franco want any strong political Fascist party even if it could favor him. or is it post WW2 politics. back then he became vassals to the USA. (to keep republicans away.... of course!) and he has to follow the American adviser/master if he wishes his regime to survive. right?

Partly because of the alliance with the Americans, yes.

AFAIK. Soviets had its own plan for Spain back then. i'm not sure if Stalin still backed the republican or did he found a new spanish communism movement elsewhere?

A few Spanish Republicans did find refuge in the Soviet Union, but Stalin (and his successors) really didn't do much to help them against Franco after they lost the Civil War.

2. Then Francisco Franco is really servant to Alphonso lines. and he simply wants carlist dead. or didn't he found any of the Charles line fit to rule Spain after he's gone?

More likely the latter.

3. IF Carlist is to start another civil war. who will they lend supports from?

No one.

 

[Traitorfish]

1. Why doesn't Franco want any strong political Fascist party even if it could favor him. or is it post WW2 politics. back then he became vassals to the USA. (to keep republicans away.... of course!) and he has to follow the American adviser/master if he wishes his regime to survive. right?

Yeah, Franco began moving away from the Falange from about 1943 onwards, when it became clear that Axis hegemony in Europe was simply not on the cards, and after WW2 it was systematically excluded from power. By the time of Franco's death, the average Falangist local was more like a social club for embittered old men than anything resembling a radical mass movement.

 

[Lone Cat]

Franco did navigate foreign politics very well. he smoothly avoided the fate several Fascist friend by delcared that Spain is neutral (well he ain't no fools. he did sent troops to assists the Axis. especially in Russia campaign. I don't know how well do those Spanish volunteers fight compared to Germans during that day).
So how did he withdrew himself from the regime he created? did the Falange declined so low pretty much the same way as the Republicans became bandits in early 50s (and 'Beware of the Pale Horse' said that much of republican members fought for their personal reasons and not political cause.) Did he disband Falange armed unit himself and replaced with more 'regular' forces or less political inclined units (like the previously existing Civil Guard).

And where did he made a journey for his heir? Juan Carlos is just an opposite person to him. or did Franco really facilitate the 'reforms' by not trying to make a 'fake democracy' (which Republicans will NOT cooperate) but to leave this part to his heir so it will be much easier. right?

 

[bombshoo]

A few Spanish Republicans did find refuge in the Soviet Union, but Stalin (and his successors) really didn't do much to help them against Franco after they lost the Civil War.

I remember reading that the Soviets supposedly had information on Spain harboring Nazi war criminals after the war and advocating to the Western allies that the regime needed to be removed. I don't know how serious they were about this though.

And where did he made a journey for his heir? Juan Carlos is just an opposite person to him. or did Franco really facilitate the 'reforms' by not trying to make a 'fake democracy' (which Republicans will NOT cooperate) but to leave this part to his heir so it will be much easier. right?

Franco thought Juan Carlos seemed like a good little supporter and was thus pretty convinced there would be a continuation of his ultra-conservative regime after his own death. Some of Franco's advisers did try to warn the Generalissimo that Juan Carlos was secretly meeting with liberal factions, but Franco continued to believe that Juan Carlos was one of his men all the way to the grave.

 

[innonimatu]

I think that people are being too categorical here. Franco didn't ever get rid of the Falange, what happened was that he never actually let them gain enough influence to threaten his personal power. It remained politically fascist, but it was also, in practice, a military dictatorship. And towards the end of the regime it started transitioning to a kind of technocracy. It followed the usual path of that kind of military dictatorship.

After Franco died the technocrats saw their opportunity to get rid of the military, even if that involved an alliance with other democratic elements, and Juan Carlos, who certainly should see where the world was heading then, and Spain with it, took leadership of the process.

Also, Franco was lucky in not getting involved in WW2. And I say lucky instead of smart because probably that luck had a name, Canaris. Left unadvised to his own devices, I believe he would have joined.

 

[LightSpectra]

Once again, Spain was never fascist, but we've argued that before.

Also, Franco was lucky in not getting involved in WW2. And I say lucky instead of smart because probably that luck had a name, Canaris. Left unadvised to his own devices, I believe he would have joined.

Franco openly despised the Axis, actually. He only vaguely sympathized with them because they were anti-communist, but Hitler's and Mussolini's tendency to persecute Christians was unacceptable to him. The División Azul was the maximum possible Spanish contribution to World War II while Franco was in charge.

 

[innonimatu]

Franco openly despised the Axis, actually. He only vaguely sympathized with them because they were anti-communist, but Hitler's and Mussolini's tendency to persecute Christians was unacceptable to him. The División Azul was the maximum possible Spanish contribution to World War II while Franco was in charge.

Oh, yes, the guy was so christian that he led the last "moorish" army to invade the Peninsula! Those moroccan recruits of his were not nice blokes. And neither did he shy at accepting those anti-christian (?!) italian soldiers offered by Mussolini, and those german pilots send by Hitler, did he?

 

[LightSpectra]

There's nothing you just said that contradicted my previous post.

 

[innonimatu]

There's nothing you just said that contradicted my previous post.

Let me put it more explicitly then: Franco was a fascist nationalist who saw catholicism as one of the national traits of Spain, to preserve (and so did Mussolini in Italy anyway, he just had the trouble of having the Vatican there and never quite managing to control it), and who knew how to co-opt the Catholic Church to serve his dictatorship (Spain had a long history with it). So catholicism was both ideologically proper and a useful practical tool: but all that because it fitted into the specific spanish nationalism which he used as part of his fascism: nicely allied with the state, it was an asset to spanish fascism.

Franco, as generally all nationalists who do not have an ongoing border dispute, could be quite internationalist in his nationalism (that was always one of the striking features of modern nationalism, how nationalists of one country would help those of another!) - I believe he had no issue with the nazi's conflicts with the catholic church in Germany: if they thought catholicism was not part of the "german national identity", why should he care? He thought them stupid for not using the catholic church, instead of conflicting with it, but he wouldn't care, no more than his public position as self-proclaimed defender of the faith demanded.

Of do you think Franco actually was a catholic? That it wasn't all just a livelong act, his single love power? Next think you'll tell us that Napoleon III was a really fervent catholic!

 

[LightSpectra]

Perhaps you should try to stop conceiving of people as either devout Catholics, or people who use Catholicism as their public facade. There is in fact a level between the two.

The fact that Franco was apolitical until the left-wingers' persecution of Spanish Christians indicates that he did care about the faith to some extent, although his brutality during and after the Civil War indicates that his goal wasn't sainthood. Nevertheless, there is no indication that he ever wanted an alliance with the Axis, except that one instance where he made outrageous demands in exchange for declaring war on the Allies that he knew Hitler could not accept. Spain also provided valuable intelligence to the Allies, so it's not even accurate to say that Franco was "Axis-aligned."

This is a little old, but still an excellent post about Spain and World War II by Lord Baal.

 

[Lone Cat]

so then Franco did learn from Mussolini that a continious fostering of Fascist political force can be fatal to him right?

Charles de Gaulle did visit him sometimes after his retirement. de Gaulle did wonder why Franco and his regime still survives but his fascist 'friend' didn't.

I'm not sure If Franco's adviser who warned him that Juan Carlos made a secret deal with the Republicans is also Carlist. yes Juan Carlos hailed form Alphonso line. a sworn enemy to every Carlist since its foundings. and i think that the adviser wants Chales descendant to be his heir instead. (though much of Carlist thinking was different to Franco's such as 'fueros' which is a feature of carlist but not to Francoist)

 

[innonimatu]

The fact that Franco was apolitical until the left-wingers' persecution of Spanish Christians indicates that he did care about the faith to some extent, although his brutality during and after the Civil War indicates that his goal wasn't sainthood. Nevertheless, there is no indication that he ever wanted an alliance with the Axis, except that one instance where he made outrageous demands in exchange for declaring war on the Allies that he knew Hitler could not accept. Spain also provided valuable intelligence to the Allies, so it's not even accurate to say that Franco was "Axis-aligned."

This is a little old, but still an excellent post about Spain and World War II by Lord Baal.

Yes, fear of certain retaliation against overseas territories was important... and Lord Baal even forgot to mention the most important one, the Canary Islands.
However, Franco very much considered joining the war: remember, from June 1940 to December 1941 the Allies on the Atlantic side were just the British, and for Franco and other neutral heads of state the outcome of the war was not at all decided. Many people believe that Germany would force Britain to the table, especially after the dramatic collapse of France and the initial german advances in North Africa (which earlier italian defeats only made more impressive).

 

[Lord Baal]

Yes, fear of certain retaliation against overseas territories was important... and Lord Baal even forgot to mention the most important one, the Canary Islands.
However, Franco very much considered joining the war: remember, from June 1940 to December 1941 the Allies on the Atlantic side were just the British, and for Franco and other neutral heads of state the outcome of the war was not at all decided. Many people believe that Germany would force Britain to the table, especially after the dramatic collapse of France and the initial german advances in North Africa (which earlier italian defeats only made more impressive).

I'm sure Franco would have joined the war if Britain had actually gone to the negotiating table, with its defeat obvious and imminent. Turkey was in a similar position to Spain throughout the war, and only joined the Allies in February 1945, when all the Germans in the vicinity of their borders were long gone. But Franco was never going to join WWII without an Axis victory being obvious and undeniable. And even at the low-point of Allied power, after the fall of France and before the cancellation of Operation: Sealion, an Axis victory was never obvious or imminent. Franco's primary concern was always the security and stability of Spain itself, and he would have thrown that away by entering the war on the losing side. It is somewhat surprising that he never entered the war on the side of the Allies in 1944-45 though.

 

[Racsoviale]

Hmm I wonder if it would be to hard to sell to his supporters that he would now be allied with the Soviets against the fascists.

 

[Lord Baal]

Hmm I wonder if it would be to hard to sell to his supporters that he would now be allied with the Soviets against the fascists.

It didn't seem that hard for Hitler to do the same.

 

[Tee Kay]

How widely was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact known in Germany?

 

[Lord Baal]

How widely was the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact known in Germany?

What precisely do you mean by "widely?" Do you mean how many people knew of the Pact, or how many people knew of the entirety of the Pact? Because the answer to the former is everyone; the existence of the Pact was no secret. The general public were well-aware of it, even if it came as a surprise. The existence of the Secret Protocols, on the other hand, were known to only a few select members of the Nazi Party, German government and the armed forces.