Spanish General Election

[innonimatu]

And useless airports. Don't pretend you didn't read that. Please, I'd like to listen to your arguments in favor of spending 1.100 milions in Ciudad Real's airport or spending 58 milions of € yearly on the maintenance of the empty airport of Castellón, among others.

No. Everything that I made clear is is that I don't like stupid spending and that I want a high speed net based on economical criteria. For comparison, this is how a net of a country that organizes its high speed net following economical criteria looks like:

Red is super-high speed lines, yellow is high speed lines and blue is previously existing lines that have been upgraded to high speed lines. Grey are fast lines (not high speed). Now compare this map with the Spanish map I posted before and answer me the following questions:

Which high speed net do you think has been cheaper?
Which high speed net connects economically relevant cities and which one doesn't?
Which high speed net has only upgraded previously existing lines and which one has made them anew (with the higher cost this represents)?
Which high speed net follows a radial design (having an axis in the center) and which one only takes in account the local geography in its design?
Which high speed net has a line that costed 3.500 milions of € only to connect two cities with less that 60.000 inhabitants with the capital city for less than six months (here's a hint)?

And no, I've nothing against Zamora's prosperity and I personaly think that the North-West line, unlike others, makes sense. All I was saying is that in the context of crisis the state cannot afford keep paying the cost of building the Noth-West line, which means that its construction should have been immediately halted. Instaed of this, the government has decided to build it to the "metropolis" of Zamora.

So no. My protests are due to a stupid squandering of money in a high speed net that is extremely expensive and most of it is useless as we already saw this summer with the Toledo-Cuenca-Albacete line and not due to "money being not spent in Catalonia".

Ah, yes, useless airports and useless high speed trains. That has been an iberian fixation over the past decade. Fortunately the portuguese government ran out of money before it could build its new projected airport and "TGV". Poor construction companies, they won't be able to afford to employ as many former ministers as administrators now... And poor french and german industry, they don't be able to export the rails, trains, instrumentation systems, etc now.

Which reminds me: many of the EU subsidiaries to the "periphery" are really subsidies to the industry of the core countries. The justification which kept being presented for the construction of a "TGV" in Portugal was that "we'd lose EU funds otherwise". Of course I doubt those EU funds would even cover the imports necessary to get the system running (never mind the projected losses of keeping it running)! It's the kind of EU-induces waste and false subsidies which make me hate the EU.
At least in Spain,s case I think you actually built some of the systems (trains?) there and the lines were longer, so it might make some sense spending money in a few lines.

 

[eduhum]

My opinion from Catalonia's independence utopicness is based on the fact that for example
One or two years there was a 'consulta per la independencia' (I think you understand)

It was optional (and I'm sure Gangleri2011 votes yes)
99% of the votes were yes for the independents
But only 25% of the people voted
Those who wanted had gone to vote
Those who didn't wanted independence stayed at home
I repeat, for a such important event, an independence declaration in a first world country, there must be a chain reaction that leads to it
I mean,
for example first people protest about independence (A LOT)
Catalonian government says ok (highly improbable)
And Spanish government (even more improbable)
Do you really think the Spain would let one of it's richest regions slip off it's hands just like that?
Impossible

 

[gangleri2001]

@innonimatu: Where are you from? Are you portuguese? As for your post, I don't think Spain's case is an EU-Induced squandering, I rather think that it's squandering tolerated by the EU but not induced by them, but by Spanish elites themselves. The case of the airport of Ciudad Real in my opinion is a good example. Here we can see that it's a criminal plot of where only members of the Spanish elite take part. Le Monde was the first one to denounce this in a European scale, which means that the EU and specially France were pretty much aware of this but, again, they didn't take part in it. As for the high speed net, the european, specially the french, interests (specially those of Alstom) played a bigger role than in the airports but still they only benefited from a spanish project projected in the 80's of connecting all the major cities (though I don't see how can they call Cuenca and Albacete major cities) with Madrid as we can clearly see in the design of the net.

 

[gangleri2001]

My opinion from Catalonia's independence utopicness is based on the fact that for example
One or two years there was a 'consulta per la independencia' (I think you understand)

It was optional (and I'm sure Gangleri2011 votes yes)
99% of the votes were yes for the independents
But only 25% of the people voted
Those who wanted had gone to vote
Those who didn't wanted independence stayed at home

You know pretty damn well that the consultes per la independència were non-binding and not even official, which means that a lot of people (even independentists) didn't take them seriously. It was only a protest movement sparked by the protest referendum of Arenys de Munt. So no, don't try to draw the conclusion that independentists are only a 25% while those against independence are the remaining 75% because that's not true. All we can say is that 25% of Catalans have openly showed their support for independence while the remaining 75% hasn't showed if they are for or against independence.

BTW, if Thorgalaeg's previous post is true, how come we are the 7% and the 25% at the same time?

I repeat, for a such important event, an independence declaration in a first world country, there must be a chain reaction that leads to it
I mean,
for example first people protest about independence (A LOT)
Catalonian government says ok (highly improbable)
And Spanish government (even more improbable)

Or we can also use the self-determination right recognized by the United Nations Charter, make a referendum and, if independence wins, declare independence according to international law.

Do you really think the Spain would let one of it's richest regions slip off it's hands just like that?
Impossible

No, they will do anything in order to avoid it. But if we win a independence referendum or attain independence by any other peaceful mean, what can Spain do? Use military force? If they did so in modern western Europe this would most likely unleash Spain's largest diplomatic crisis in its history and the EU and the NATO would most likely expel them.

 

[gangleri2001]

Appearance of Bildu has anything to do with Belgium or Scotland? Wow...

Traitorfish already answered that for me: every political movement mirrors itself similar movements in similar circumstances and take them as an example to follow if they achieve success.

Also repeating what secessionist is the majority is not going to make it true. Lets see result of ERC (the seccesionist party of Catalonia results last years...)

<*snip*>

7% maybe is a majority in your particular nationalist universe but not in the real one.

I said that the combination of nationalist and secessionist parties have always been majoritary because it has always been. And using data from the general election is totally biased. You know well that many independentists don't vote in the general elections because they believe that the independentist movement has nothing to do in Madrid. That's why ERC always get bad results in the general election. And your own data show this pretty clearly because you can compare the data of any election with those of the 2004 election (the only time independentists voted en masse in a general election) and see what I mean.

But still, that 7% you point out is not the whole independentist movement. That 7% are the independentists that support and vote ERC, and these are two completely different things. We've got independentist or nationalist voters mainly in ERC, CiU and SI so the combination of these three parties (plus some pro self-determination sector in other parties, specially ICV) is what matters. And if you combine these three parties you have a perpetual absolute majority since democracy began. This means that nationalism has always been majoritary and that independentism has always had more importance than you want us to belive.

Eduhum's post shows it pretty clearly: about a 25% of Catalans (I think it was exactly a 22% or maybe 21%) took part in independentist protest like the Consultes per la independència, and as I said in my answer to him, no all independentists voted for considering it too frivolous. Other studies (like this one that also predicted with a low error margin last sunday's election results) claim that the total amount of independentists is somewhere between a 40% and a 45%.

What's the total amount of independentists? I don't know, but all evidences show that the total amount of independentists is far higher than those who vote ERC, and specially those who vote ERC in the general elections, an election that repels independentist voters.

It seems that if i am addicted to strawmans then you are addicted to plain lies. As having to go backwards until 2005 to find news with a fiscal balance of the 9% (calculated in a special way which fits your agenda pretty well... )

Looks like you've got bad reading comprension. The last data I give in my last post are the data from 2009 (16.500 milion € of fiscal deficit) because it's the last year we've got data available. An exhaustive calculation of the fiscal deficit is made every 4 years, that's why before that we have to go to the data of 2005. If you want to calculate the fiscal deficit in the inbetween years you have to make approximations by taking in account the Generalitat's cash flow. That's how we know that the fiscal deficit peaked in 2007 and 2008 with about 20.000 milions of € each. And this are not data that I or any independentist organization are just made up by using obscure methods of calculation. These are data published by the Grup de Treball per a l'Actualització de la Balança Fiscal de Catalunya (here you can download its studies), which is a governmental agency whose only function is keeping Catalonia's balance sheets up to date and uses methodology approved by every single economist on this planet.

Also if you read my post with some calm (I recommend you Diazepam)

Thanks for the offer but I'm ok and it looks like won't need it. Good thing that you haven't forgetten your doctor's recommendation. You never know when you're going to need it

i said that i have not problem with independence but many people in Spain do, particularly the right. And if you dont know that your must live in an underground cave or something. They also can support his position easily on a legal basis because the very Spanish Constitution (which was signed by all political forces, nationalists too) while creating and allowing the selfgovernment of the regions

Yeah, right, you have no problems at all with independence, that's why you're showing everyone that you'r against it

BTW, did you say laws? How about international right, specially the UN Charter that recognizes the right of self-determination and which was signed by Spain, or the precedent set by Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence and its recognition by the International Court of Justice (psst: Spain belongs to its jurisdiction too)? Looks like those against Catalan independence like ignoring international right when it may be used against you.

it also expressively forbiddes any seccesion possibility even through force. So dont be so naive and dont think it would not be any problematic or dangerous (particullarly for selfgovernment of the seccionist regions itself).

Is it just me or are you threating a peaceful secessionist movement? You may threat as much as you want. Now you belong to the EU and the NATO so you can't use your army against a peaceful and democratic movement which has won a referendum without unleashing a massive diplomatic crisis that may end up with Spain been kicked out the EU and the NATO so hard that you may end up, as Traitorfish says, relocated in the far side of Jupiter. Specially if your military theater happens to be in western Europe.

Belgium and Scotland are Belgium and Scotland (i dont see secession movements being succesful in those countries either btw) and Spain is Spain. To summarize it: keep dreaming.

Are you sure there're no successful secessionist movements in Flanders and Scotland?

About the trains... What differences do you see with the Spanish projected network in that map? Wich would be your ideal network for Spain? And why you think Germany high speed train is better? As a German himself said me in a previous thread that Geman rail network has been built as they could due to not having freedom to build it as they wanted, becuase all sort of issues with high populated areas along all the country, even it seems that most of the railways are not high speed at all.

My answer to your first question: Answer the questions I asked you in my previous post and you'll see the difference by yourself.

My answer to your second question: A high speed net made according economic needs. There's no way someone can justify connecting cities like Cuenca or Zamora to the high speed net or its radial design that makes someone who wants to go from (let us imagine that the whole net is already completed, which isn't) Barcelona to Murcia have to pass through Madrid.

My answer to your third question: Because the German net has been built according economic needs. You can clearly see that, unlike the Spanish one, it only connects economically relevant cities and it doesn't follow any radial design for that matter. And unlike the Spanish net, where most line have been made anew (with the additional cost this represents), most of the German net are previously existing lines that have been upgraded and adapted to its new usage. Sure it has had its proiblems due to population density (we can see it pretty clearly in the Ruhrgebiet), but this problem can't be extrapolated to Spain due to the low population density and the steppe climate of most of its interior. All in all, it's not hard to see that the German net has been made following far better criteria than those of the Spanish one.

BTW, you keep forgetting the airportmania of this last decade. I'd really like to ear some arguments in favor of them.

With such silly arguments like trains and fiscal balance it seems that you are looking for excuses for being independentist. You dont need it at all. Only vote whatever you want in the next elections, maybe that way in the future you guys reach a significant majority, who knows...

I my arguments are silly and just a collection of mere excuses then I think you won't have any problem in refuting them. But you haven't yet, so maybe it's becasue they're not that silly or because you haven't had the time to refute them. In this last case, I invite you to take all the time you may need to refute them and do so.

And thanks for your last recommendation, but I assure you that it wasn't necessary because I do already vote for secession everytime I've the occasion and I fight for independentism until we reach our goal.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Traitorfish already answered that for me: every political movement mirrors itself similar movements in similar circumstances and take them as an example to follow if they achieve success.

You said that appaerance of Bildu had to do with Belgium and Scotland and that is plain false. It is a coalition of parties that have existed since 30 years ago. Now the pro-ETA party has been legallized by the constitutional court and after ETA has been wiped out it formed a coaliton with other independentist parties. Dont see Belgum or Scotalnd here.

I said that the combination of nationalist and secessionist parties have always been majoritary because it has always been. And using data from the general election is totally biased. You know well that many independentists don't vote in the general elections because they believe that the independentist movement has nothing to do in Madrid. That's why ERC always get bad results in the general election. And your own data show this pretty clearly because you can compare the data of any election with those of the 2004 election (the only time independentists voted en masse in a general election) and see what I mean.

Nationalist =/= secessionist. Dont add it now to your cause. And i used data from both elections if you looked at it. In fact the data of last regional elections is even smaller: 6,95%

But still, that 7% you point out is not the whole independentist movement. That 7% are the independentists that support and vote ERC, and these are two completely different things. We've got independentist or nationalist voters mainly in ERC, CiU and SI so the combination of these three parties (plus some pro self-determination sector in other parties, specially ICV) is what matters. And if you combine these three parties you have a perpetual absolute majority since democracy began. This means that nationalism has always been majoritary and that independentism has always had more importance than you want us to belive.

Read above. :zzz:

Eduhum's post shows it pretty clearly: about a 25% of Catalans (I think it was exactly a 22% or maybe 21%) took part in independentist protest like the Consultes per la independència, and as I said in my answer to him, no all independentists voted for considering it too frivolous. Other studies (like this one that also predicted with a low error margin last sunday's election results) claim that the total amount of independentists is somewhere between a 40% and a 45%.

If you say so...

And not even speak me about that "referendum" which included only a few lesser towns which of course were the ones where ERC was more succesful, not Barcelona, no any large cities. So it selected 700,000 electors of a total census of over 5,5 millions. Adding to people under 18 yo and foreigners to enlarge it. Laughable. And then only voted 200,000. Of course we dont even know if the very results are credible. Is one of the more laughable things i have seem in politics

What's the total amount of independentists? I don't know, but all evidences show that the total amount of independentists is far higher than those who vote ERC, and specially those who vote ERC in the general elections, an election that repels independentist voters.

That is a problem you have. Dont you? Independentists not voting Independentism in elections...

Looks like you've got bad reading comprension. The last data I give in my last post are the data from 2009 (16.500 milion &#8364; of fiscal deficit) because it's the last year we've got data available. An exhaustive calculation of the fiscal deficit is made every 4 years, that's why before that we have to go to the data of 2005. If you want to calculate the fiscal deficit in the inbetween years you have to make approximations by taking in account the Generalitat's cash flow. That's how we know that the fiscal deficit peaked in 2007 and 2008 with about 20.000 milions of &#8364; each. And this are not data that I or any independentist organization are just made up by using obscure methods of calculation. These are data published by the Grup de Treball per a l'Actualització de la Balança Fiscal de Catalunya (here you can download its studies), which is a governmental agency whose only function is keeping Catalonia's balance sheets up to date and uses methodology approved by every single economist on this planet.

Again, you said again in your previous post "budget deficit" which means "public deficit". Howeer it seems you already learned it and you are using therms properly, congratulation!
About your link dont expect me to read all that bunch of PDF most in Catalan, anyway all i could see is that Madrid pays much more than Cataluña... If you have indeed something supporting your 10% there (it is also curious as your numbers are changing continously always getting smaller ) point me to it so i can read it or it doesnt exist...

Yeah, right, you have no problems at all with independence, that's why you're showing everyone that you'r against it

Of couse i am against it. But that does not mean i have problem with it. That is a democratic thing it seems you cant get. You can be against one opinion but not having problems with others having it. However to impose his opinon over others even when they are not majority even through violence is something independentism have not problem with. A curiosity: i have never seen you condemning ETA violence in these forums. Do you condem it? I bet you really dont.

BTW, did you say laws? How about international right, specially the UN Charter that recognizes the right of self-determination and which was signed by Spain, or the precedent set by Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence and its recognition by the International Court of Justice (psst: Spain belongs to its jurisdiction too)? Looks like those against Catalan independence like ignoring international right when it may be used against you.

But Spains is allowed to self-determinate itself. It all depends how big you consider the region with self-determination rights... And dont be fantasious, international relations are based on political or economical interest nobody gives a s*** about Cataluña, sorry...

Is it just me or are you threating a peaceful secessionist movement? You may threat as much as you want. Now you belong to the EU and the NATO so you can't use your army against a peaceful and democratic movement which has won a referendum without unleashing a massive diplomatic crisis that may end up with Spain been kicked out the EU and the NATO so hard that you may end up, as Traitorfish says, relocated in the far side of Jupiter. Specially if your military theater happens to be in western Europe.

It is not me who is "threating" your particular view of the world, but the Constitution. Since it seems you ignore it...

Section 2

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

Section 8
1. The mission of the Armed Forces, comprising the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, is to guarantee the sovereignty and independence of Spain and to defend its territorial integrity and the constitutional order.

Section 155

1. If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the above-mentioned general interest.
2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self-governing Communities.

You think the Constituion will not be enforced in such hypotetical situation? Even by force. The governemt would be in his right to do it even if i would not support it. Face it, cessesionism goes frontally against the very basis of our juridic order and i repeat again, Constitution was signed for all political sides including nationalists and is signed every time any pubic charge takes on power, even ERC ones. So i would say you have a coherence problem here.

Are you sure there're no successful secessionist movements in Flanders and Scotland?

You dont know what success means or are you seeing a independent Scotland or an independet Flanders somewhere i cant?

My answer to your first question: Answer the questions I asked you in my previous post and you'll see the difference by yourself.

My answer to your second question: A high speed net made according economic needs. There's no way someone can justify connecting cities like Cuenca or Zamora to the high speed net or its radial design that makes someone who wants to go from (let us imagine that the whole net is already completed, which isn't) Barcelona to Murcia have to pass through Madrid.

My answer to your third question: Because the German net has been built according economic needs. You can clearly see that, unlike the Spanish one, it only connects economically relevant cities and it doesn't follow any radial design for that matter. And unlike the Spanish net, where most line have been made anew (with the additional cost this represents), most of the German net are previously existing lines that have been upgraded and adapted to its new usage. Sure it has had its proiblems due to population density (we can see it pretty clearly in the Ruhrgebiet), but this problem can't be extrapolated to Spain due to the low population density and the steppe climate of most of its interior. All in all, it's not hard to see that the German net has been made following far better criteria than those of the Spanish one.

BTW, you keep forgetting the airportmania of this last decade. I'd really like to ear some arguments in favor of them.

So you say a country with the biggest and most economically important city just in the center shouldnt have a radial network... And then you speak about economic needs ... What? Also it is not totally radial if you look at it.
It seems you hate towards Madrid is obscuring your reasoning...
About airports... didnt know about the topic really, and dont care indeed. It seems some airports have been constructed or something. If you need to base your independetism in such silly things you have a big problem...

I my arguments are silly and just a collection of mere excuses then I think you won't have any problem in refuting them. But you haven't yet, so maybe it's becasue they're not that silly or because you haven't had the time to refute them. In this last case, I invite you to take all the time you may need to refute them and do so.

i have not all the time of the world to argue with you, true. And in fact i am getting tired of this. So since my posture has already been well stated and all your points adressed (you will say i didnt and will begin again arguing about your airports) i will end this here...

And thanks for your last recommendation, but I assure you that it wasn't necessary because I do already vote for secession everytime I've the occasion and I fight for independentism until we reach our goal.

Good luck.
Only dont burn any post box in the process...

 

[Traitorfish]

It is not me who is "threating" your particular view of the world, but the Constitution. Since it seems you ignore it...

Section 2

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all.

Section 8
1. The mission of the Armed Forces, comprising the Army, the Navy and the Air Force, is to guarantee the sovereignty and independence of Spain and to defend its territorial integrity and the constitutional order.

Section 155

1. If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the above-mentioned general interest.
2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self-governing Communities.

You think the Constituion will not be enforced in such hypotetical situation? Even by force. The governemt would be in his right to do it even if i would not support it. Face it, cessesionism goes frontally against the very basis of our juridic order and i repeat again, Constitution was signed for all political sides including nationalists and is signed every time any pubic charge takes on power, even ERC ones. So i would say you have a coherence problem here.

If the Spanish government is actually comprised of the bloodthirsty fascitoids that you seem to think are in power, then I really can't see why you're defending it. Perhaps there's as much of Franco in the Castillian political heritage as Gangleri's more radical associates would allege.

You dont know what success means or are you seeing a independent Scotland or an independet Flanders somewhere i cant?

In all fairness to our portly First Minister, an absolute majority in the regional parliament and an upcoming referendum on independence isn't what you'd call unsuccessful. This sort of thing is necessarily a process, not an event.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I am not supporting anything. Only stating facts. Constitution stablished a status quo: i give you self-government you dont try to go independient. If such status quo were broken by any side anything would be possible. It is my prediction. if i am wrong about it then great.

 

[Traitorfish]

I am not supporting anything. Only stating facts. Constitution stablished a status quo: i give you self-government you dont try to go independient. If such status quo were broken by any side anything would be possible. It is my prediction. if i am wrong about it then great.

Then allow me to rephrase: if the Spanish government is actually comprised of the bloodthirsty fascitoids that you seem to think are in power, then I really can't see why you're not actively opposing it on every point.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I think you are not getting it. It is not about the government being bloodthirsty but about the Constitution being dangerous the way it is now. If someday a region tries to go independent the government (any government) will stop it because the Constitution says it must do it. That is for sure. From that point things could scalate and become unpredictable. If any it is the Constitution what should be changed to leave a window for legitimate separatist regions go if they want, and i am all for it.