Spanish Judge issues arrest warrant for US soldiers in Iraq

[Jorge]

I don´t know what´s the big deal with all this. Spain has it own justice and courts have to apply it.

One person has been killed, the family has demanded the soldiers and the only thing the jugde can do (it´s his duty) is to make a trial.

If the soldiers are in other country, the judge will ask for the extradition. If these soldiers are in a country that is willing to hand them to the spanish justice, a trial wil take place.

You have to note that the judge is only following the spanish law, not trying to piss off americans.

 

[Stapel]

Now I'm all for justice being done and an investigation being initiated. But it sounds like the US military already found that they were not at fault and thought it was an enemy military position.

First, a general opinion:
Nobody here in Europe thinks the American justice system is fair, let go the US army justice system. That has nothing to do with Iraq! The US justice system is considered totally inferior to what we have here. I'm not saying it is, but it most defenitely is a wide-spread impression: Fair trials and the US-justice systems have rather little in common.
Maybe hollywood has caused this view, maybe the jury-system, I don't really know.

This is a rather serious issue.
Do Americans, generally, realise that the image (here in Europe) of their justice system is not much better than the one in, say, Cameroon?

I think there should be a hearing and if necessary, a trial in a US military Tribunal.

Now, if any justice system is biased towards the US army, it is the US Army justice system, not?????
The Spanish justice system might indeed be biased towards the death of this journalist, but there is a rather simple solution. Simply allow the Spanish prosecutors into the US, and allow them to hear these three men as whitnesses.
And see what their conclusion is.

The only reason to refuse this, imho, is when something is not right.

 

[Stapel]

I'm sorry, but it isn't sensible to feel 100% safe in the middle of a warzone. He knew what he was getting into when he reported from Baghdad during the climax of the U.S. invasion. If there was any evidence that these soliders were out to kill foreign journalists, I would be on the side of the Spainards...but none exists.

Well, than allow the Spanish justice system to draw this conclusion themselves. I there is no evidence these soldiers did something wrong, they won't find it, so there is no big deal to have these three men as whitnesses.

Refusing this, makes thre Spanish justice system think there is something to be hidden.

Screw Spain. They want these men, they can come get them.

That's what the Spanish judge suggested , but there was no cooperation in the US.

Hiding whitnesses of a lethal shooting incident is just wrong.

Pedraz had sent two requests to the United States in April 2004 and June 2005 to have statements taken from the suspects or to obtain permission for a Spanish delegation to quiz them. Both went unanswered.

Only a banana republic justice system would leave this unanswered.
Especially patriotic Americans should agree with this.

 

[eyrei]

I think one of the reasons the US military did not allow that 'quiz' is that allowing it might exacerbate the situation. Like I said before, should these men be handed over to the Spanish government, and found guilty of murder, the US military would be ordered to get them out. That is a situation that noone wants, and if you are annoyed by the situation as it is now, imagine how you would feel were it to come to that.

And also remember that our military is completely volunteer, and having trouble meeting its recruitment goals as it is. Turning over a couple of our soldiers to foreign courts for actions taken while on combat patrol would have a severe detrimental effect on that recruitment. That is not to say that it is right or fair, but that is simply the way it is.

And didn't the Spanish government withdraw its soldiers from Iraq well before they had said they would? The US government really owes them nothing at this point, particularly as regards anything that goes on in Iraq.

 

[wit>trope]

You have to note that the judge is only following the spanish law, not trying to piss off americans.

I think spain is within her rights (and america with hers to use force to get them out if need be), but IMHO the judge is not motivated by a pure regard for the law. It's probably that the judge is doing it not so much to piss off americans but because they want to feel like america can't tell them what to do; that they are a country too and that they are equal to america, etc. .... no one can doubt that that is part of the equation here,

 

[Stapel]

I think one of the reasons the US military did not allow that 'quiz' is that allowing it might exacerbate the situation. Like I said before, should these men be handed over to the Spanish government, and found guilty of murder, the US military would be ordered to get them out. That is a situation that noone wants, and if you are annoyed by the situation as it is now, imagine how you would feel were it to come to that.

The best way to deal with it is to only allow this quiz. Not to send them to Spain!

If the Spanish justice system would decide to prosecute (one of) these three, based on these interviews, they can go ahead with their trial, without them. And find them guilty or not. Doesn't really matter, since these guys won't go to Spain anyway.

What people seem to think is that allowing the 'quiz' would lead to imprisonment. Simply not true, imho.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

So these guys can kill reporters if they are from countries that are not cooperating with USA in Iraq.

BTW it was a judge who cursed the arrest warrant no Spain government. I wonder if in USA they know what separation of powers means.

 

[Verbose]

You you go into a war zone you get shot, its common sense. I can see civilians complaining, but foreigners? I can even see people talking about war crimes but Spanish law in Iraq? Just like US soldiers she had no right to be there and no garauntee of safety.

If you go to war and shoot at the foreign press, it leads to bad publicity is also common sense.

Any inquiry is likely to turn up the simple fact that these soldiers had no idea there'd be third party reporters around, no fault of theirs. They weren't told. Maybe they should have been?

The foreign press sure weren't hiding or keeping their whereabouts secret. They thought they were relatively safe since they had clearly indicated their position to US authorities.
So someone should have issued the troops with a map clearly indicating the hotel as a place you shouldn't fire upon unless you were damn sure you had reason.

As it turned out the US troops saw people on the roof pointing something at them (cameras) in a situation where they were already coming under fire.

 

[Stapel]

I think spain is within her rights (and america with hers to use force to get them out if need be), but IMHO the judge is not motivated by a pure regard for the law. It's probably that the judge is doing it not so much to piss off americans but because they want to feel like america can't tell them what to do; that they are a country too and that they are equal to america, etc. .... no one can doubt that that is part of the equation here,

I can. I really do believe this Spanish court simply investigates the death of a Spaniard, just like any civilised country would if a fellow countryman gets killed in whereverystan. Hearing whitnesses is a totally normal, regular, if not necesarry step.

If an American citizen would be killed in Spain by a Dutchman, the American prosecutor/investigator would most certainly be welcome to NL and question the Dutchman, even if he has already been found 'not guilty' by a Dutch court.
Whether there's a war going on or not, doesn't really matter.

Not answering the request is absolutely a ridiculous way of handling it!
It is simply an obligation to the familty of the victim.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I think spain is within her rights (and america with hers to use force to get them out if need be), but IMHO the judge is not motivated by a pure regard for the law. It's probably that the judge is doing it not so much to piss off americans but because they want to feel like america can't tell them what to do; that they are a country too and that they are equal to america, etc. .... no one can doubt that that is part of the equation here,

It is not needed. We know yet you cant tell us what do do. However the other way around: "we are america, we are beyond the law, we can say other countries what to do, we can kill anybody and send Rambo to anywhere" is pretty obvious even in you own post.

 

[Stapel]

I wonder if in USA they know what separation of powers means.

An interseting (though off topic) question!
Whereas I am absolutely flabbergasted by the American system of not seperating the executive power from the judicial power (enough), I'm also equally flabbergasted by the European system of not seperating the executive and legislative powers (enough).

Afaik, there is not nation that has really seperated all three of them.

 

[wit>trope]

It is not needed. We know yet you cant tell us what do do. However the other way around: "we are america, we are beyond the law, we can say other countries what to do, we can kill anybody and send Rambo to anywhere" is pretty obvious even in you own post.

If Spain were a civilized, courteous nation and true friend of America, she would do what the Italians did and either defer to an American investigation or have a JOINT Spanish-American investigation (like the joint Italian-American investigation for the situation with the Italian journalist).

Imagine if these American soldiers had family in Spain -- maybe they even do have some distant family in Spain -- now Spain would be preventing them from visiting their family. IMHO, Spain is being arrogant by doing this ... but it is within her rights like I said.

 

[Jorge]

If Spain were a civilized, courteous nation and true friend of America, ...

Are you saying spain is not a civilized nation?

Imagine if these American soldiers had family in Spain -- maybe they even do have some distant family in Spain -- now Spain would be preventing them from visiting their family. IMHO, Spain is being arrogant by doing this ... but it is within her rights like I said.

Spain is not doing anything. It´s a judge following the procedure that the law dictates. It´s no like all the spanish have gathered together and decide to prosecute these soldiers. Do you understand this?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

If Spain were a civilized, courteous nation and true friend of America, she would do what the Italians did and either defer to an American investigation or have a JOINT Spanish-American investigation

Well, IIRC it was not very satisfactory, at least since an italian point of view. OTOH read the article, this uncivilized judge issued the arrest warrant becuase there was zero cooperation from US.

 

[wit>trope]

Are you saying spain is not a civilized nation?

Let me retract that. I meant not courteous, not having good manners.

Spain is not doing anything. It´s a judge following the procedure that the law dictates. It´s no like all the spanish have gathered together and decide to prosecute these soldiers. Do you understand this?

Are you saying the judge had no choice at all?

 

[wit>trope]

Well, IIRC it was not very satisfactory, at least since an italian point of view.

I know but the Italians didn't like try to have American soldiers arrested did they? And they agreed to and were quite happy about America inviting them to do a joint investigation ... why can't Spain do the same thing?

OTOH read the article, this uncivilized judge issued the arrest warrant becuase there was zero cooperation from US.

If Spain wanted to have people involved in a joint investigation, I have zero doubt the US would have agreed. Why is Spain "better" than Italy? Is what's good enough for Italy not good enough for Spain?

Spain is the only country in the world that does something like this (besides maybe fundamenlist Muslim countries).

 

[Jorge]

Are you saying the judge had no choice at all?

I´m saying that the jugde did what he considered right acording to the law.

 

[wit>trope]

OK, so he thought the right thing was to not give deference and courtesy to America. Well he's wrong. The law always gives discretion as you seem to now admit. This judge abused his discretion IMHO.

 

[Stapel]

Spain is the only country in the world that does something like this (besides maybe fundamenlist Muslim countries).

Any civilised country does this!

Not too long ago, the US justice department interrogated Dutch prisoners (in NL).

 

[Jorge]

OK, so he thought the right thing was to not give deference and courtesy to America. Well he's wrong. The law always gives discretion as you seem to now admit. This judge abused his discretion IMHO.

From the intial post:

"Under Spanish law, a crime committed against a Spaniard abroad can be prosecuted here if it is not investigated in the country where it is committed."

The judge just follows the law. The USA would not allow a trial with Couso family as acusation in the USA.