Spearman defense?

[KevinRuddPM]

I had the baddest Civ 3 game today.

I attacked with 3 longbowmen against one fortified spearmen, all of them lost and the spearman was on full health. Is this some kind of defense value glitch or something. I've heard even worse battles, where tanks lost to spearman.

Is there something wrong? Even my pikemen can't beat their spearman.

 

[da3dalus]

I had the baddest Civ 3 game today.

I attacked with 3 longbowmen against one fortified spearmen, all of them lost and the spearman was on full health. Is this some kind of defense value glitch or something. I've heard even worse battles, where tanks lost to spearman.

Is there something wrong? Even my pikemen can't beat their spearman.

Random number generator, coupled with the fortification bonus, with any additional terrain bonuses are probably the reasons why, with an emphasis on the first one.

The best you can do is to make sure you are attacking from the most advantageous terrain you can and the rest is all up to the RNG.

If the spearman was fortified on a hill, mountain, or forest tile, or if you were attacking from across a river, your attacking units would be at a disadvantage.

 

[KevinRuddPM]

Isn't my highly advanced units a factor as well?

 

[Padma]

Isn't my highly advanced units a factor as well?

No.

The combat process simply compares numbers. It neither knows nor cares what the units are.

(And of course your Pikemen can't beat a Spearman. They are defensive units: they only have an attack value of 1. The Spearman has a defense of *at least* 2.2. )

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . The best you can do is to make sure you are attacking from the most advantageous terrain you can and the rest is all up to the RNG. . . . .

Just to clarify a little: Terrain doesn't actually have any effect on the attack value of units, only on their defensive unit. As an example, if you attack across a river, the defender gets a bonus. Moving so that you can attack without crossing the river doesn't actually help the attacker, but it keeps the river from helping the defender.

 

[KevinRuddPM]

If I attack from a mountain, does that mean I have more chance of victory?

 

[Aabraxan]

No. That's what I'm saying. A defender is helped by standing on a mountain, but an attacker gets no terrain bonus.

 

[Spoonwood]

Artillery. Veteran cavalry seem to more often than not (or about) defeat a 1 hp infantry fortified in a city. Same goes for any unit attacking, soften them up with artillery as much as possible when attacking with regulars, vets, or elites. Healthy armies can win on their own. A fortified spear behind a wall or in a size 7+ city *already* has over a defense 3 rating, so losing longbows like that unfortunately doesn't come as too improbable.

 

[vmxa]

My question is where they really Longbow or where they archers? I would expect LB do a bit better, but it is not unheard of either.

 

[EvilConqueror]

Outcomes like that happen on occasion but the odds are pretty low that you wouldn't do any damage at all. More often you take an HP or two off and it keeps promoting until you have no units left to finish it off. Or you weaken the top spearmen and it switches with a healthy one underneath it.

I've lost many Medieval infantry and longbowmen on those pointy buggers. I'd recommend trying a bigger attacking force, five or six usually does the job. Good news is that you likely won't have such bad luck for a while.

 

[Gamemaster77]

I have actually never had one of those "spearmen kills tank moments"

 

[MGS]

I've had rifleman kill army of 4 modern armor moments. A lot of yelling was done that day.

 

[KevinRuddPM]

I've had rifleman kill army of 4 modern armor moments. A lot of yelling was done that day.

Tell me about it

 

[Rodrig0]

I've seen recruit riflemen dying elite, after taking with them 3 of my cavalries and pushing back 4 or so... those cheap bastards must be laughing at me even as they arrive at the gates of hell

 

[Spoonwood]

Seriously, if you have a spear-tank scenario, doesn't that really mean you're probably playing way below your level, since you (almost) have an entire age lead on that AI? The question shouldn't be, "why does a spearman lose to a tank?" but "why haven't you played something *a little* bit harder?"

I've had rifleman kill army of 4 modern armor moments. A lot of yelling was done that day.

That does sound really painful.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Seriously, if you have a spear-tank scenario, doesn't that really mean you're probably playing way below your level, since you (almost) have an entire age lead on that AI? The question shouldn't be, "why does a spearman lose to a tank?" but "why haven't you played something *a little* bit harder?"

We'll, in "Monarch" difficulty, it is possible to civ be landlocked(tiny isle) early in the game or civ get few bad city spots (thundra or desert). If civ is far enough from me, tanks vs spearmen are "normal" for me(however I usually win with cavalry armies) - I only "check" conquest as victory, so...

I've had rifleman kill army of 4 modern armor moments. A lot of yelling was done that day.

Cavalry armies to spears, anyone?

 

[timerover51]

I have actually never had one of those "spearmen kills tank moments"

Ah, then they are coming.

Seriously though, the benefits to the defense of fortresses and cities is badly understated in the game, not overvalued. The Army did an extensive study after WW2 called the Ballistic Performance of Ammunition, dated July 1948, where they concluded that in good fortifications, with overhead cover, it took AT LEAST 100 TIMES the ammunition to inflict a casualty on the enemy compared to a man standing in the open on level ground. During the Medieval Period, the ability of a castle to hold out under attack was enormous, with sieges of several months to years not being uncommon, even with a huge manpower advantage to the attackers.

Whether playing the standard game or one of my modified ones, I go with hitting a city with at least 6 units minimum if I can, and hammering it with whatever artillery/ships and/or aircraft that I have prior to attacking. In my mods, attacking a city is even worse, as I have doubled all of the defense factors, making taking a city really a job.

 

[Aabraxan]

Seriously, if you have a spear-tank scenario, doesn't that really mean you're probably playing way below your level, since you (almost) have an entire age lead on that AI? The question shouldn't be, "why does a spearman lose to a tank?" but "why haven't you played something *a little* bit harder?"

I don't think this necessarily follows. I've had many games at Emperor where I have spears vs tanks (or cavs) in the end game. It doesn't automatically mean that I've got an age lead on the AI. It may also mean that I simply traded the AI out of all its gold right before DOWing, and that it can't afford to upgrade

 

[Spoonwood]

I suppose you might have me on a slight technicality. Still, if you have tanks, you have Motorized Transportation, which lays at the far right of the industial tech tree. If they *only* have spearmen, then they haven't researched any industrial age techs or just learned Nationalism a few turns ago... as the AIs almost invaraibly research Nationalism first. With few exceptions, that's *almost* an age lead over that AI.

 

[Aabraxan]

I don't think I "got you," Spoonwood. What you said certainly can be true. If you're consistently running up on tanks vs. spears fights, you may well have a considerable tech lead over the AI. I just said that it doesn't *necessarily* follow. I find lots of spears buried under other defenders, because the AI hasn't upgraded. I spend a fair amount of effort keeping the AI broke so that it can't upgrade or afford very good research, but I'm sure that's much harder to do at DG & above, where you play, than at Emp, where I usually play. And yeah, you're right about the AI researching Nationalism. The AIs tend to treat Nationalism like the Holy Grail.