Specialization is for Insects

[PieceOfMind]

A library, uni and observatory together cost 440. (assuming no modifiers from traits)
A forge costs 120. (again assuming no trait modifiers)
A forge's bonus to the hammers a city produces can be anywhere between 0 and 25% depending on whether whipping/chopping is used and how many base hammers there are. Whipping and chopping tends to make the bonus closer to 25% and cities with low base hammers (especially less than 4) are more likely to be near 0%.

Assuming no other multiplier buildings, a forge will make buildings between 80% and 100% of their original cost.
80% of 440 = 352.

In best case scenario, by building a forge before the 3 science buildings you are saving 88 by having the forge. Since the forge costs 120, could it be reasonable to suggest the science buildings should have come first? Having the science buildings up earlier could be a bigger advantage e.g. for a commerce rich city.

There are a lot of simplifying assumptions in this, including the fact we ignore the possible from the forge, the from the forge, border pops etc. but I think it goes to show the forge can be just a tad overrated sometimes. The city with the forge is faster to make more wealth or research once the science buildings are finished. And I'm not trying to advocate not building forges - I build them frequently and think they are a very powerful building. Just you don't have to build them right away in science cities necessarily.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Agreed. Forge is the last building I put into hybrid cities and science cities (if I build forge at all in these cities for )

The way I see it: Specialization nets me a 600-700 per turn Oxford bureau capital (in CE games) and more like 800 per turn in a Golden Age. 3 other science cities can push out 175-200 per turn before getting Assembly Line. HE city churns out units every 1-2 turns on Marathon speed, IW city can churn out a similar #s, hybrid cities can push them out in 4-7 turns (usually 4-5 cities doing that in war prep).

Specialized cities allow me to do fast research while simultaneously building fairly huge armies and supporting a VERY large empire.

Non-Specialization has always been crippling to my empires. I'm sure there are ways to work it very well, but I just have never been able to implement such tactics successfully in my mid-high level games.

 

[Wodan]

Excellent illustration, PoM.

 

[Wodan]

I thought you want your city to build wealth, with AP buildings, 4 base hammer = 4 more gold/turn, is it that hard to understand this math? 140/4=35 turns you make your investment back (without a forge).

It's worse than that because that's 35 turns you delay getting the Library. So if you're generating 100 , that's 3500/4 = 875 lost

And you dont think I whip my cities? do you know that Forge makes whipping/chopping 25% more efficient? and with added base hammer, you will be able to whip faster and with fewer pop. Base hammer only enhance whatever you are Already doing to build things.

Yes and yes. Let me point out that whipping a lot more because of making a lot of unnecessary buildings is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

lol. How about build a granary and build warriors and run HR so your cities can get to size 20 100 turns faster? (warning no exact math here but hope you get the idea)

HR prevents from running Representation or Universal Suffrage. lol: bakatcha)

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

HR prevents from running Representation or Universal Suffrage. ( bakatcha)

He's probably talking about the earlier eras (ie build warriors/granary) like when you first get access to HR.

If you mean with 'Mids, then I see what ur saying (although running US in the early game seems a bit useless without much gold to play with and very sparse towns for the bonus).

 

[Wodan]

He's probably talking about the earlier eras (ie build warriors/granary) like when you first get access to HR.

If you mean with 'Mids, then I see what ur saying (although running US in the early game seems a bit useless without much gold to play with and very sparse towns for the bonus).

I agree with both your points but we're talking about the strategies as a whole. It's good to point out an exception or where a strategy needs to be adjusted based upon situational conditions. But, by no means does that qualify it as a shotgun to shoot down the strategy as a whole.

Edit: that wasn't intended as a criticism of either you or ABCF. Just an observation to keep us on track.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

No doubt. Kudos to you guys who are winning games on Immortal while not specializing cities. I may give it a try in the future (on Emperor of course), but judging from previous results, will probably fail miserably and return to specializing

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I will cut you all off without caring for the last 7 pages to point something out.
It is in my personal opinion that Specialization is crucial to a good civ development.


It is also my opinion that the title of this thread is absolutely right.
Specialization IS for insects.

If you look up your paleontology you will see that insects were on this earth long before we were and in all likelihood they will be here long after we are gone.

A good person, and a good civ player has a lot to learn from them.


Than again, this is all in my personal opinion.

 

[Wodan]

It is in my personal opinion that Specialization is crucial to a good civ development.

Than again, this is all in my personal opinion.

Okay are you just tossing rocks, or do you care to back up your statements? Why do you have that opinion? And, what do you mean by "good civ development"? I could interpret that several different ways.

 

[ABigCivFan]

It's worse than that because that's 35 turns you delay getting the Library. So if you're generating 100 , that's 3500/4 = 875 lost

My bad. I did not know that you play games with 13 grassland gems (100 without a library) in your cities.

I prefer to play randomly generated games. So I rest my case.

 

[Wodan]

My bad. I did not know that you play games with 13 grassland gems (100 without a library) in your cities.

I prefer to play randomly generated games. So I rest my case.

20 Towns under Free Speech is 140, so 100 is conservative, actually. No gems required.

You're really reaching, aren't you. A sure sign you don't have much to stand on.

 

[ABigCivFan]

20 Towns under Free Speech is 140, so 100 is conservative, actually. No gems required.

Wow, I did not know you can:

be at 1500BC just finished researching writing (no library yet)

and grow your pop to 20 without a granary (since you don't like it)

and have 20 Towns (what a generous map you play that allows 20 cottagable tiles )

and running Free Speech (oh so you got Liberalism before Writing?? i got it)

talk about learning something new everyday!!

 

[r_rolo1]

The only impossible thing above is getting Lib before writing ( atleast without worldbuilder ) The rest can be done with the magic of advanced starts

 

[Wodan]

Who was talking about 1500BC? I was talking about a whole-game strategy.

 

[naterator]

Who was talking about 1500BC? I was talking about a whole-game strategy.

Even late game, it's pretty tough to get to size 20, and build and grow 20 cottages to towns BEFORE you even begin a library though. Even with emancipation and a really rocking sushi corp, you'd have to make some bad decisions on build order to achieve that.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Originally Posted by Wodan View Post
It's worse than that because that's 35 turns you delay getting the Library. So if you're generating 100 , that's 3500/4 = 875 lost

Because you were talking about the time frame of building a library. I typically start building my libraries around 1500BC, but I did not know that you wait until you have 20 towns and Liberalism before building your libraries.

 

[IAM]

I will cut you all off without caring for the last 7 pages to point something out.
It is in my personal opinion that Specialization is crucial to a good civ development.


It is also my opinion that the title of this thread is absolutely right.
Specialization IS for insects.

If you look up your paleontology you will see that insects were on this earth long before we were and in all likelihood they will be here long after we are gone.

A good person, and a good civ player has a lot to learn from them.


Than again, this is all in my personal opinion.

Insects may well be here after we are gone... they also are a protein rich food source.

Humans can explore the space, write poetry, create pornography, cure disease and step on bugs. Being a non-specialized human is better than a specialized insect. In the opinion of the gods.

 

[Wodan]

Even late game, it's pretty tough to get to size 20, and build and grow 20 cottages to towns BEFORE you even begin a library though. Even with emancipation and a really rocking sushi corp, you'd have to make some bad decisions on build order to achieve that.

Exactly my point. The proposed alternative has the city delaying the Library in order to make a Forge.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Okay are you just tossing rocks, or do you care to back up your statements? Why do you have that opinion? And, what do you mean by "good civ development"? I could interpret that several different ways.

The good developement of a civilisation during the game.

And do I care to back it up?
No, I don't.

But thank you for your interest.

 

[Darad'en]

Ah trolling topic. I fell for it.

You most certainly did. lol