Spell reworking for FF

[WarKirby]

Actually since you are in Fall Further land you can limit Mind III much better, by making it so that the dominated unit becomes a slave to the caster and prevents any further domination until lost (so basically it works like doing a permanent summon, you can only have 1).

This is an interesting way of doing things, actually.
But it pretty much completely changes the purpose of Mind III. As it is now, it's a spell for building an army in the field. This approach would severely restrict that.

To be honest, I think as you've described here, would be good for a lesser spell. Like a lv2 mind spell. That one could be called Dominate, and the lv3 one could be renamed Convert or somesuch. But on the whole, this approach you've described would be significantly weaker, and I'm not sure it would be good enough to justify lv3 mind magic slot.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The way the master-slave system works, wouldn't that mean the dominated unit would die if the dominator did? I'd much rather it return to its old owner, but of course that would require tracking the owner as well.

You wouldn't have to limit the number of units that can be dominated to 1 though, right? I think it would be better to make it easier to resist the more dominated units a caster controls. You could also try making it so that failing to dominate another unit would allow previously dominated unit to break free. Many archmages could manage to dominate 2 or 3 individuals, but only Perpentach could control a whole nation.

 

[Vehem]

The way the master-slave system works, wouldn't that mean the dominated unit would die if the dominator did? I'd much rather it return to its old owner, but of course that would require tracking the owner as well.

At the moment, yes. In the near future, no. Master/Slave was originally designed for summons only - but there's another system that we've spec'd out that is going to work off of it that requires it to be extended in functionality a fair bit. Once Xienwolf gets some time to play with it, the whole system should be a lot more interesting to use (plus I get to rewrite a section of the game that I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity - both in FfH and in BtS).

 

[ICanHasName?]

Sounds like fun! I especially never liked how the level 1 spells tended to be either awesome or worthless depending on circumstances (like spring or scorch). It will be nice to have some choice and some general purpose combat magic.

 

[WarKirby]

The thought of multiple slaves actually sounds good.
I had contemplated this in general once. It would be good to have a line of promotions ("Control") which increase the number of things a unit can command at once. It would be,ideally, applied globally, to things like skeletons, tigers, etc, as well.

Would work well with this concept.

 

[Sarkyn]

Is this the thread to contribute idea-brainstorming for spells?

 

[WarKirby]

No, that's the other one.

I'm not sure why this one is still going actually.


Edit: I got confused.
It IS this one.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I think we should have a new spell sphere (Elemental Mastery?) for the really powerful elemental spells, which requires the mastery of all elements to unlock - i.e. an archmage would need to have access to Earth, Air, Fire and Water III before he can unlock Elemental Mastery (only 1 tier or if we are creative enough I, II and III).

We could have similar mastery spheres for the divine, alteration and necromancy spells as well. Would add a lot to the game without being too imbalancing IMO, since they would be really hard to get.

BTW, I think mages should gain xp from casting spells, especially offensive ones, based on the total amount of damage their spell inflicts on enemy units.

It is very interesting idea, but hard to implement and even harder to balance...

I very much approve of this I'd love to see a slightly more interesting magic system.

My first thought - If it is your intention that a caster can only be either "Utility" or "Offence" then perhaps just make them two units with two different names?

It would simply move the choice from the point where you take the first upgrade, to the point where you decide what to build.

You could use the Pen-and-paper D&D distinction - Wizard (utility) vs Sorceror (battle).

My second thought was that Summons are offensive, and use up valuable 3rd tier slots for utility mages that would otherwise by taken up by great utility spells. I really like the idea of magic having very visible and viable effects on aspects of the game OTHER THAN combat.

For instance, the spells I think are great ideas are Unyielding Law, Hope, Inspiration, Wall of Stone, etc. Additionally the ones that add useful (but most situational) promotions like Blur, Shadowwalk, etc.


May I suggest either breaking out Summons as a third line (as in FFH about a year of patches ago), or using them very sparingly as 3rd tier. Each "dull" summons stops us from having a brainstorm about a useful spell in it's place.

The problem with the 2 different units, is that it would handicap the AI. This is why I decided to go for the random approach in the case of multiple mana. I am trying to create a system that the AI will be able to use as well, at least most of it

I do not indent to create a utility vs offensive line. The Normal lines will be mixed, most of the time, while the Offensive lines will be strictly offensive.
Summons can be either offensive or defensive, regarding their abilities and strength. So, sometimes they will be in the Normal Line, and sometimes in the offensive.
The elemental spheres are the most...versatile, and this is why I got them first.

If there's going to be a raise land spell (and there should be), there must also be one to remove peaks. Being able to create unremovable peaks would be a huge problem.

Also, can I suggest calling the spell "Move Mountains" Raise Land sounds a bit mundane

The spell to remove them will be in another sphere. Not an elemental one.

YEs, of course. It would be affected by magic resistance.
I was also thinking, that world units should have a farther inbuilt 50% resistance to this spell, representing the difficulty of claiming their powerful souls, and essentially making it useless as a hero assasination spell.

The main idea, generally, is to give an arcane way to KILL things. Because so many spells have damage caps. Balancing it would be the single-target nature, and the relative unreliability of it, unless the caster is massively more powerful than his victim.

When it works, it should do 100% death damage to the target, essentially killing them instantly. What that means of course, is that a unit with even a slight amount of death resistance, would be unable to be killed by it, only severely injured. Of course, it would also be a spell that only works on living targets.

But I think generic magic resistance should affect the chance of falling victim to it, rather than reducing the damage.


But anyways, on another note. Something that's always bugged me. Why does the Mind III spell, Dominate, make you lose the ability to cast the spell if it fails.
Whenever that happens, I just reload the game, every single time. BEcause I'm not going to tolerate the archmage I've been training for the last few turns, being so horribly croippled because of an illogical and arbitrary design decision.

I'd really like to suggest removing that silly penalty. Reduce the chance of success if necessary.

I will include such spells, propably on the "Necromancy" aligned type of spheres.
The domination is going to be reworked, so that the caster has a cooldown after cast, and will have a miscast chance. The current penalty for the spell being resisted will be removed.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Firewall reworked. It does 20% damage on units attacking the tile. Fire immune units are unharmed. At present I cannot remove it on move, but I am working on it.
Firewalls can be cast everywhere.
I had to implement the mechanics to apply a promotion before combat in the .dll, so that to work properly, and I will have to do something to have it removed when moving as well. This means the new system will be uploaded with a modified .dll

I hope this does not scare you

 

[BenjaminEmbarec]

No, that's the other one.

I'm not sure why this one is still going actually.


Edit: I got confused.
It IS this one.

Neither do I honestly and I started the other one. XD What would be the "propper" way to close my old thread without putting the moderators through any trouble? Just linking to this one at the bottom?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

New spells.

WATER

Normal Line:
Water I: Create Pond. Creates a pond in a city, which gives +1 +3 , the building needs the caster to be present
Water II: Spring. As it is now + will remove the FireWall promotion from units in adjucent tiles.
Water III: Waterwalking. It will give the stack the ability to walk on water for 1 turn. Units left midwater will be stacked there, until another waterwalking is cast or a ship goes there to pick them up. The caster will be unable to cast any spells for 2 turns. This spell will be available to Arcane Units only.

Offensive Line:
Water I Offensive: Summon Frog. Summons a permanent frog. 2 str 1 move, waterwalking.(I hope I can find a frog summon somewhere)
Water II Offensive: Summon Water Elemental. Summons a water elemental 5/6 str, 1 move, water walking, water mana affinity, split.
Water III Offensive: Tsunami. As is tsunami for the OO priests, 45% damage for a max of 95% damage. The caster will be unable to cast any spells for 3 turns. The spell will be available only to arcane units(in this form)

 

[WarKirby]

Hold up a sec.

You can't move spring to water II. I'd have to say that's really not an option.

When you start in a desert area, it's hard enough to research to elementalism. Sorcery is miles away. Even just when there are desert tiles scattered around your empire, limiting your cities.

Farthermore, spells beyond lv1 are off limits for some civs, notably khazad. And a lot of civs really aren't suited to arcane paths in general. forcing them to go as far as sorcery down the path to get a basic terraforming spell would be a very bad idea

Spring really HAS to be kept on Water I

On a similar note, I'd say water walking isn't good enough to be a third level spell. It's nice, but you can get powerful ships long before archmages, so it doesn't really get much more than nice.

Edit: Actually, I just had a closer look at waterwalking. Your implementation plan makes it horrible. One turn of waterwalking gets you nowhere, and being unable to attack makes it rather ineffectual. There would be no reason to use that instead of a ship. The way it works currently may only affect the caster, but it's permanant.

I think you should reexamine these water spell choices.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Hold up a sec.

You can't move spring to water II. I'd have to say that's really not an option.

When you start in a desert area, it's hard enough to research to elementalism. Sorcery is miles away.

That really HAS to be kept on Water I

I have always thought spring is too powerful for a level I spell. So is scorch. Terraforming shouldn't be available at level I anyway.
There are not many palaces that give water mana, and the water node becomes available at Elementalism. From there, sorcery is close.
Just keeping an overpowered low level spell is not my idea of a balanced spell system.
Plus, spring has now the very importand ability to remove firewalls.

On a similar note, I'd say water walking isn't good enough to be a third level spell. It's nice, but you can get powerful ships long before archmages, so it doesn't really get much more than nice.

The ability to use large stacks of land troops to attack on water, saving you the technology research required to build strong ships and the time/money to build ships in addition to your normal army is much more than nice, IMO .

EDIT: I think I may increase the health bonus of the pond, though. Perhaps +3 would be better.

 

[Iceciro]

Wait a second, I have to agree with Kirby. Not only is Spring necessary if you get stuck on a desert start, but it's not at all overpowered. Not in the least.

I'm not very good at tact so I'll just come out and say it, by the way - the Create Pond spell would be the fundamentally weakest spell in the entire game, additionally.

 

[WarKirby]

I have always thought spring is too powerful for a level I spell. So is scorch. Terraforming shouldn't be available at level I anyway.
There are not many palaces that give water mana, and the water node becomes available at Elementalism. From there, sorcery is close.
Just keeping an overpowered low level spell is not my idea of a balanced spell system.
Plus, spring has now the very importand ability to remove firewalls.

Spring is powerful, but it's also essential.
Sorcery is not close. It's quite an expensive tech. And please remember Khazad cannot get mages.

I've played several games where I got stuck with a crippling start in a desert wasteland. Having to divert early research towards elementalism is bad enough.

The ability to use large stacks of land troops to attack on water, saving you the technology research required to build strong ships and the time/money to build ships in addition to your normal army is much more than nice, IMO .

Your implementation plan here, is useless.
It gives the stack waterwalking for one turn, and then the caster can't cast anymore spells for another two turns.

This means your army is going to be moving 1 space, then stoppping and standing still for two turns, a sitting duck in the middle of the ocean. How can you think that's remotely useful, compared to the average ship with 4-6 movement.

And while you're moving across water at a snail's pace, you're easily vulnerable to enemy ships which scale in strength significantly faster than land troops, and have the movement to make easy hit and run attacks on a large stack.

The single, and only use I could see for this incredibly short lived effect, would be to attack across a lake or a small body of water. But you've taken care of that neatly with the restriction on attacking. So what use would this spell be at all.

Also, what research exactly are we being saved? have you looked at the Tech Cost on Strength of Will recently? You can get good oceangoing ships by optics, which is exponentially earlier than Strength of Will.

If you want waterwalking to be a worthy spell, it has to affect the entire stack permanantly, so long as the caster stays there. And putting a cooldown on it is just excessive. Having your archmages sititng doing nothing for several turns isn't fun.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Wait a second, I have to agree with Kirby. Not only is Spring necessary if you get stuck on a desert start, but it's not at all overpowered. Not in the least.

I'm not very good at tact so I'll just come out and say it, by the way - the Create Pond spell would be the fundamentally weakest spell in the entire game, additionally.

Hmmm. OK, I'll give pond +1 as well. Better now?

 

[Sarkyn]

Some random typing-as-I-think:

Air
Civ-wide effect +1 movement to ships/flying creatures per node

Utility Ideas (Buffs, City Improvements)
"Fair Winds" - movement bonus for ships/flying units
"Fly" - as above, grant flying to units/tiles
"Wall of Wind" - city improv- archery units can't attack/ have penalty to attack
"Floating Tower" -city improv - +2/+3 line of sight?
"Flying Citadel" - lift the city off the ground (level 3 perhaps
"Harbour Winds" - sea trade route +%?

Combat Ideas & debuffs
"Downdraft" - ground flying units
"Gust" - Push back a targeted unit backwards one tile
"Wind Storm" - scatter flying and boat units 4-6 tiles away
"Lightning Bolt" - direct damage
"Chain Lightning" - tile attack
"Maelstrom" - AOE attack

Summon ideas
"Zephyr" - Non-combat scouting unit, great range, but permanent, not like hawk - 0(+1/air) str?
"Floating Disc" - slow moving unit with carry space
"Cloud giant" - moderate melee?
"Air Elemental" - high movement, flying combat

Earth Ideas

Civ-wide effect - increase chance of finding gems/metals works well I think

Utility ideas & buffs
"Wall of Stone" - city improvement ain't broke, don't fix it
"Dig In" - improved fortifications/ramparts
"Stoneskin" - as above, great idea for stack-wide
"Prospect" - cast on a mined tile, %-age chance of unearthing gems/metals
"Raise/Lower Land" - as above

Combat ideas & debuffs
"Tunnel Below" - destroy city walls/improvements
"EarthQuake" - as above
"World Crack" - create impassable terrain/tile?
"Pebbledash" - the AOE low level damage spell
"Scouring Sands" - like rust, removes metallic improvements

Summon ideas
"Earth Elemental" - has to be one of them
"Clay Elemental" - summon that can speed production or make a road, then expires?
"Sandstorm" - a unit with collateral damage to the whole stack, but small actual attack?

Fire Ideas

Civ-wide effect - Chance for tiles to change type, eg like global warming in vanilla?

Utility Ideas (buff and city improvement)
"Blaze" - as implemented (though I never use it)
"Flaming Arrows" - should be fire not enchantment imho.
"Wall of Fire" - city improv, does damage to enemies who cross it
"Elemental Lighthouse" - some sort of sea tile improvement?

Combat ideas
"Fire blast" - as above
"Fire ball" - as above
"Meteor Swarm" - as above
"Ring of Fire" -

Summon ideas
"Fire elemental" - obvious, but good

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Spring is powerful, but it's also essential.
Sorcery is not close. It's quite an expensive tech. And please remember Khazad cannot get mages.

I've played several games where I got stuck with a crippling start in a desert wasteland. Having to divert early research towards elementalism is bad enough.

Please remember that magic is for those that want to go with magic. I have also experienced the problem you describe, with no mana nodes anywhere and without any water mana and I survived. I am sure some people may miss spring as level I spell, but I think its place is to level II.

Your implementation plan here, is useless.
It gives the stack waterwalking for one turn, and then the caster can't cast anymore spells for another two turns.

This means your army is going to be moving 1 space, then stoppping and standing still for two turns, a sitting duck in the middle of the ocean. How can you think that's remotely useful, compared to the average ship with 4-6 movement.

Really? I thought that mobility gives +1. Recons have 2 when build. Mounted 3. Recons can get mobility II. This goes for a speed of 1 - 5 instead of just 1 that you describe. And nothing prevents you from having 2 archamages with the stack.

And while you're moving across water at a snail's pace, you're easily vulnerable to enemy ships which scale in strength significantly faster than land troops, and have the movement to make easy hit and run attacks on a large stack.

The single, and only use I could see for this incredibly short lived effect, would be to attack across a lake or a small body of water. But you've taken care of that neatly with the restriction on attacking. So what use would this spell be at all.

OK, imagine the scenario: Units(30) in the middle of the ocean. They have stoneskin and firewall. Water Elementals summoned. Even Earth elementals summoned.(Both level 2 now). Where is the vulnurability?
Also, what research exactly are we being saved? have you looked at the Tech Cost on Strength of Will recently? You can get good oceangoing ships by optics, which is exponentially earlier than Strength of Will.

If you want waterwalking to be a worthy spell, it has to affect the entire stack permanantly, so long as the caster stays there. And putting a cooldown on it is just excessive. Having your archmages sititng doing nothing for several turns isn't fun.[/QUOTE]

 

[WarKirby]

Hmmm. OK, I'll give pond +1 as well. Better now?

how about removing pond entirely and putting spring back.

How about, as a better lv3 water spell, the ability to create a river. A source of fresh water, anywhere you want it. Think of how excellent that would be.

I find that a lot of the cooldowns you're proposing for these lv3 spells, are excessive in general. For instance, the firestorm spell, with it's 3 turn cooldown. Examining that critically, I'd say I wouldn't use it. I'd much rather summon fire elementals 3 turns in a row, and use their collateral damage to weaken stacks, and probably actually get a few direct kills as well.

Remember that archmages are a very limited unit. You can only ever cast 4 lv3 spells per turn, aside from a few heroes. Putting one of those already-limited resources out of commision for any length of time, is really something I wouldn't want to do. 1-2 turns might be tolerable for something epic, but right now, I can spam ring of fire with ritualists every turn, and do all the fire damage I need to successfully take a city. Why would I tech to strength of will, to get an archmage with a slightly better version of the same, that he can only cast once every 3 turns ?

Here's an idea. SPELL cooldowns. Not on the unit, but on a single spell. After casting a big spell, make only that spell uncastable for a few turns, so the archmage isn't left sitting around like a lemon while your blitzing lv20 rosier slaughters thousands, turn after turn.

 

[WarKirby]

Please remember that magic is for those that want to go with magic. I have also experienced the problem you describe, with no mana nodes anywhere and without any water mana and I survived. I am sure some people may miss spring as level I spell, but I think its place is to level II.

But remember also, having earth that accepts seeds and grows crops, is for those who want to survive.

You shouldn't have to go a long way down the magic path, just to get something out of it.

Or how about this. Moving Spring up to a lv2 spell, makes magic weaker on the whole, and less worthwhile. Why would you do that as part of a plan to improve magic.

Really? I thought that mobility gives +1. Recons have 2 when build. Mounted 3. Recons can get mobility II. This goes for a speed of 1 - 5 instead of just 1 that you describe. And nothing prevents you from having 2 archamages with the stack.

Arcane units can get Mobility I, at most.
To be useful, the mage is going to have to stay with the stack. otherwise, you just end up with an army that is not only a sitting duck, but a sitting, split up duck. With your cavalry charging miles ahead into the ocean, they'll just get swallowed by ships.

OK, imagine the scenario: Units(30) in the middle of the ocean. They have stoneskin and firewall. Water Elementals summoned. Even Earth elementals summoned.(Both level 2 now). Where is the vulnurability?

I pull up alongside you with my arcane barges, which I built ages ago while you devoted your economy to researching SoW. I doublecast maelstrom on your stack a few times, and then I hammer you repeatedly with man-o-wars and frigates, because I went after blasting powder, and other industry/economy techs. And since there is obviously a body of water between our empires, I made it a priority to have a reasonable fleet of ships at the ready.

There isn't much that can stand up to a man-o-war. And if there is, see how long athat holds true after a few ranged bombardments.

As your stack slowly moves across the ocean, I launch hit and run raids on them repeatedly with my ships, who, with longshoremen crew, can run up, hit you, and sail out of your attack range again.

The point here, is that ships make a fleet. If you want to do it with magic, you have to bring something new to the table. A stack of waterwalking units is inferior in many ways, to a stack of units onboard a ship. But mobility is the primary one.