Spell reworking for FF

[Thunder_Gr]

how about removing pond entirely and putting spring back.

How about, as a better lv3 water spell, the ability to create a river. A source of fresh water, anywhere you want it. Think of how excellent that would be.

I find that a lot of the cooldowns you're proposing for these lv3 spells, are excessive in general. For instance, the firestorm spell, with it's 3 turn cooldown. Examining that critically, I'd say I wouldn't use it. I'd much rather summon fire elementals 3 turns in a row, and use their collateral damage to weaken stacks, and probably actually get a few direct kills as well.

Fire Elementals can only attack one stack at a time, do not destroy improvements, do not set forests/jungles on fire and do not destroy city defenses. However, If you want to go that way, this is why they are there.

In addition Mages are now much more dangerous. I think you are being unnecessarily offensive. I do not intend to create a gamebreaking spell system. I just want to create a better one than the existing.

Remember that archmages are a very limited unit. You can only ever cast 4 lv3 spells per turn, aside from a few heroes. Putting one of those already-limited resources out of commision for any length of time, is really something I wouldn't want to do. 1-2 turns might be tolerable for something epic, but right now, I can spam ring of fire with ritualists every turn, and do all the fire damage I need to successfully take a city. Why would I tech to strength of will, to get an archmage with a slightly better version of the same, that he can only cast once every 3 turns ?

Sure 4 Archmages + 4 Liches. Ring of fire will be modified, so you will consider to have something else for vast fire damage.

Here's an idea. SPELL cooldowns. Not on the unit, but on a single spell. After casting a big spell, make only that spell uncastable for a few turns, so the archmage isn't left sitting around like a lemon while your blitzing lv20 rosier slaughters thousands, turn after turn.

Interesting, but missing the point. The effort needed to cast spells doing 40% damage or more in a single cast in all units within a range is too high. Again, the Mages and adepts are much more better now. I know how overpowered the high level spells can be. I have read how they did it, I have done it myself. I do not want to allow it.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

But remember also, having earth that accepts seeds and grows crops, is for those who want to survive.

You shouldn't have to go a long way down the magic path, just to get something out of it.

Or how about this. Moving Spring up to a lv2 spell, makes magic weaker on the whole, and less worthwhile. Why would you do that as part of a plan to improve magic.

Because moving a spell where I think it is its place, is an improvement.

Arcane units can get Mobility I, at most.

To be useful, the mage is going to have to stay with the stack. otherwise, you just end up with an army that is not only a sitting duck, but a sitting, split up duck. With your cavalry charging miles ahead into the ocean, they'll just get swallowed by ships.

This is why there is the teleport spell

I pull up alongside you with my arcane barges, which I built ages ago while you devoted your economy to researching SoW. I doublecast maelstrom on your stack a few times, and then I hammer you repeatedly with man-o-wars and frigates, because I went after blasting powder, and other industry/economy techs. And since there is obviously a body of water between our empires, I made it a priority to have a reasonable fleet of ships at the ready.

Maelstorm? I didn't see that in my list. Are you going to install the mod or not?

There isn't much that can stand up to a man-o-war. And if there is, see how long athat holds true after a few ranged bombardments.

As your stack slowly moves across the ocean, I launch hit and run raids on them repeatedly with my ships, who, with longshoremen crew, can run up, hit you, and sail out of your attack range again.

The point here, is that ships make a fleet. If you want to do it with magic, you have to bring something new to the table. A stack of waterwalking units is inferior in many ways, to a stack of units onboard a ship. But mobility is the primary one.

Anyway, you have taken this personally. When I upload the changes, you will see for yourself it is not as easy. Firewall can be cast everywhere, and your ships will get 20% damage before they attack. The movent of the ships is as much as of a mounted unit. If you add haste to it, it can even go further.
And, there will be the Teleport spell. Believe me, waterwalking does deseve to be a 3rd level spell in the presented implementation.

The way I am trying to do it, there should be a bit more consideration on which spell spheres to select.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I will allow the units to attack when they have waterwalking

 

[WarKirby]

It is not my intent to be offensive, apologies if I seem rude. I do so love debating things

With the fire elementals, generally what you'll need spells for, is taking big heavily defended cities. I don't see many situations where I'm surrounded by so many enemy stacks, that I'd really need a big area effect spell.

Fire elementals don't destroy city defenses, true. But fireballs do. And they're easier to get. But fire elementals DO cause collateral damage. Using one, it will severely weaken or kill the top defender in the stack, and cause damage to quite a few things in there, too.

Igniting forests and improvements are cool, but really more of a flavour thing. I can't think of too many situations I'd want to do that, as I generally like to keep captured cities.

If making only a specific spell uncastable wouldn't be enough, then how about making the unit unable to cast any lv3 spells for the duration, but still able to use lower levels.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Some random typing-as-I-think:

Air
Civ-wide effect +1 movement to ships/flying creatures per node

Utility Ideas (Buffs, City Improvements)
"Fair Winds" - movement bonus for ships/flying units
"Fly" - as above, grant flying to units/tiles
"Wall of Wind" - city improv- archery units can't attack/ have penalty to attack
"Floating Tower" -city improv - +2/+3 line of sight?
"Flying Citadel" - lift the city off the ground (level 3 perhaps
"Harbour Winds" - sea trade route +%?

Combat Ideas & debuffs
"Downdraft" - ground flying units
"Gust" - Push back a targeted unit backwards one tile
"Wind Storm" - scatter flying and boat units 4-6 tiles away
"Lightning Bolt" - direct damage
"Chain Lightning" - tile attack
"Maelstrom" - AOE attack

Summon ideas
"Zephyr" - Non-combat scouting unit, great range, but permanent, not like hawk - 0(+1/air) str?
"Floating Disc" - slow moving unit with carry space
"Cloud giant" - moderate melee?
"Air Elemental" - high movement, flying combat

Earth Ideas

Civ-wide effect - increase chance of finding gems/metals works well I think

Utility ideas & buffs
"Wall of Stone" - city improvement ain't broke, don't fix it
"Dig In" - improved fortifications/ramparts
"Stoneskin" - as above, great idea for stack-wide
"Prospect" - cast on a mined tile, %-age chance of unearthing gems/metals
"Raise/Lower Land" - as above

Combat ideas & debuffs
"Tunnel Below" - destroy city walls/improvements
"EarthQuake" - as above
"World Crack" - create impassable terrain/tile?
"Pebbledash" - the AOE low level damage spell
"Scouring Sands" - like rust, removes metallic improvements

Summon ideas
"Earth Elemental" - has to be one of them
"Clay Elemental" - summon that can speed production or make a road, then expires?
"Sandstorm" - a unit with collateral damage to the whole stack, but small actual attack?

Fire Ideas

Civ-wide effect - Chance for tiles to change type, eg like global warming in vanilla?

Utility Ideas (buff and city improvement)
"Blaze" - as implemented (though I never use it)
"Flaming Arrows" - should be fire not enchantment imho.
"Wall of Fire" - city improv, does damage to enemies who cross it
"Elemental Lighthouse" - some sort of sea tile improvement?

Combat ideas
"Fire blast" - as above
"Fire ball" - as above
"Meteor Swarm" - as above
"Ring of Fire" -

Summon ideas
"Fire elemental" - obvious, but good

There are some interesting ideas in the list, but most of them are either impossible to implement, or/and impossible for the AI to use.

 

[Iceciro]

If waterwalking is a t3 spell what is teleport?

Because teleport is far better for the same sphere, and unless I have desert, the rest of the spells for the Dimensional sphere will be better at every step than Water.

And of course, I still have to get to Sorcery for water to be useful.

But I am an arguer like Kirby - I have Fall Flat to toy with if I really sit down and decide I can do better than you

 

[Thunder_Gr]

With the fire elementals, generally what you'll need spells for, is taking big heavily defended cities. I don't see many situations where I'm surrounded by so many enemy stacks, that I'd really need a big area effect spell.

Fire elementals don't destroy city defenses, true. But fireballs do. And they're easier to get. But fire elementals DO cause collateral damage. Using one, it will severely weaken or kill the top defender in the stack, and cause damage to quite a few things in there, too.

40% damage(if you add some more from empower and metamagic it can be as high as 60% or 70%) in a single cast up to a max of 90% to all units in range(instead of colateral to 4 units as Fire elementals have up to a limited amount) is much more than any fire elementals can do, and at the same time you destroy the city defenses and improvements. After that, you use your mages to cast fireballs, earth elementals, water elementals. KIA. The archmage must be controlled.

Igniting forests and improvements are cool, but really more of a flavour thing. I can't think of too many situations I'd want to do that, as I generally like to keep captured cities.

If making only a specific spell uncastable wouldn't be enough, then how about making the unit unable to cast any lv3 spells for the duration, but still able to use lower levels.

Well, if you are up against the elves are much more than cool. Remember that forests with an improvement cannot be set on fire, but with meteor storm it will. In addition, if someone chooses to go for the fire elemental, will do so at the expence of firebolts and fireballs early on. So, fire elementals must be powerful enough to worth this.
Even more, when having multiple mana sources, the choice is random. I believe that both lines should have strong points to copensate for this.

There is no need to let the archmages cast lower than 3 level spells. You have the mages for that.

 

[Honor]

But I am an arguer like Kirby - I have Fall Flat to toy with if I really sit down and decide I can do better than you

I'll try and pull off an arcane mastery modmodmod (for) myself, incorporating the ideas I mentioned on the first page, as soon as I have the time.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

If waterwalking is a t3 spell what is teleport?

Because teleport is far better for the same sphere, and unless I have desert, the rest of the spells for the Dimensional sphere will be better at every step than Water.

And of course, I still have to get to Sorcery for water to be useful.

But I am an arguer like Kirby - I have Fall Flat to toy with if I really sit down and decide I can do better than you

OK, now. +1 +3 is almost as good as Hope, and this is a level II spell right now! And Summon frog is a level 1 summon with waterwalking. The Water sphere is as good as any other sphere.

Dimensional sphere is a surprise sphere. I am still thinking about that one .

 

[Thunder_Gr]

BTW, I think mages should gain xp from casting spells, especially offensive ones, based on the total amount of damage their spell inflicts on enemy units.

I, too, think this(not tied to the damage, though), but until I decide to get to the trouble needed to implement that, I'll leave it as it is.

The rest of you ideas are very interesting, but modifying the spell system is already a daunting task. Doing it as you propose, is a hell of a work!!

 

[Breez]

Let me start by saying I don't mind longer cast times or cool down effects in general. I would prefer cool down on ONE spell if possible.

Create Pond. Creates a pond in a city, which gives +1 Health, the building needs the caster to be present

I love these types of spells that create buildings in cities. More of those through out please!

_______________________________

I have to agree with WarKirby on 2 points

Moving spring is a MAJOR change... good? bad? I am not sure but it is a major shift. Also keep in mind Lizard workers get Scorch and Spring by default...

I propose a different solution. Leave it at level 1, but change it to take X number of turns to cast and/or Y number of turns cool down. Ideally there would be a way to leave it at level 2 and be castable once per turn but avilable to be cast by an adapt with Either long cast time and recast time, OR a large failure chance.

Is there any way to keep it level 2 but let an adapt buy it early but have a 75% fail chance? That would slow down how fast an adept could do it, but not block it entirely.​

Heck do that on all spells...

Adept - can Buy level 1 (100% success) and level 2 spells (25% success)
Mage - can buy level 1 and level 2 spells (100% success) and also by level 3 spells (25% success)
Archmage - All 3 level spells available with 100% success
​

Hmmm could use channeling effect it? Channeling 1 = 100/25/0, Channeling 2 = 100/100/25, Channeling 3 = 100/100/100

____________________________

Ummm anyway point 2... Water Walking as a Stack spell is a great idea. Level 3 means archmage (unless you take my above idea) which means a limited number of casters. I think your implementation would make it not MUCH better than the current useless version. As WarKirby mentioned the stack has to move the speed of the slowest unit.

My counter suggestion is, make water walking like haste, let it not wear off as long as they stay in the stack with the caster. Change the cast time and or cool time as you see fit, but don't leave units sitting out part way stuck unless they lose their mage that isn't fun. It WOULD however make ship units with Marksman hilarious!!!

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Let me start by saying I don't mind longer cast times or cool down effects in general. I would prefer cool down on ONE spell if possible.



I love these types of spells that create buildings in cities. More of those through out please!

The mentioned building is finalised at 1 , 3 for the moment. I have to see if it is overpowered considered than KotE is easy to reach early.

_______________________________

I have to agree with WarKirby on 2 points

Moving spring is a MAJOR change... good? bad? I am not sure but it is a major shift. Also keep in mind Lizard workers get Scorch and Spring by default...

I propose a different solution. Leave it at level 1, but change it to take X number of turns to cast and/or Y number of turns cool down. Ideally there would be a way to leave it at level 2 and be castable once per turn but avilable to be cast by an adapt with Either long cast time and recast time, OR a large failure chance.

Is there any way to keep it level 2 but let an adapt buy it early but have a 75% fail chance? That would slow down how fast an adept could do it, but not block it entirely.​

Heck do that on all spells...

Adept - can Buy level 1 (100% success) and level 2 spells (25% success)
Mage - can buy level 1 and level 2 spells (100% success) and also by level 3 spells (25% success)
Archmage - All 3 level spells available with 100% success
​

Hmmm could use channeling effect it? Channeling 1 = 100/25/0, Channeling 2 = 100/100/25, Channeling 3 = 100/100/100

____________________________

Ummm anyway point 2... Water Walking as a Stack spell is a great idea. Level 3 means archmage (unless you take my above idea) which means a limited number of casters. I think your implementation would make it not MUCH better than the current useless version. As WarKirby mentioned the stack has to move the speed of the slowest unit.

My counter suggestion is, make water walking like haste, let it not wear off as long as they stay in the stack with the caster. Change the cast time and or cool time as you see fit, but don't leave units sitting out part way stuck unless they lose their mage that isn't fun. It WOULD however make ship units with Marksman hilarious!!!

IF I could, I would implement a system that spells are castable with miscast chances from all spellcasters, miscast would decrease as the unit have gained levels, and the power of the spells would increase according to level.

BUT, in order to do that, a Major DLL editing is in order. Imagine that I had to edit the dll to get the firewall working, and still it doesn't work 100% as I want it to.

There is a reason noone has touched the magic system so far, and this thread is an example of it. I just hope that more posts with ideas appear rather that arguments that the system I try to implement is useless.

 

[Iceciro]

My counter suggestion is, make water walking like haste, let it not wear off as long as they stay in the stack with the caster. Change the cast time and or cool time as you see fit, but don't leave units sitting out part way stuck unless they lose their mage that isn't fun. It WOULD however make ship units with Marksman hilarious!!!

Hmmm. Ships with marksman... maybe the Arcane Barge could get that?

 

[Valkrionn]

All in all, I like your changes. Spell delays tend not to bother me, particularly if the spell is powerful. I'm not too sure about the spring/scorch change, but since it is YOUR mod, that doesn't really matter.

Personally, I think spring as you have it is rather weak. Yes, it counters Fire Wall, but that depends on the enemy USING Fire Wall. I'd add some other small boost, maybe a small chance to create a lake? (Oasis clone, reduced yields)

As for water walking, my only complaint is that it WOULD take quite some time to cross an Ocean... Maybe have it grant a movement point or two?

 

[Darksaber1]

All I know is that an additional Spirit 3 spell would be useful. As is, you only need one unit with it (ever), and then it's useless.

 

[Breez]

but since it is YOUR mod, that doesn't really matter.

Oops I was reading these as Proposed FF changes... not a modmodmod

My bad

 

[xienwolf]

Before I forget about it again, I had sat down to think up some non-combat (primarily) summon units once a while ago. Except for a feedback system (slave units grant master unit a promotion while they are alive) which we might code soon here, everything required for them is possible already, or very easily added.

Anyway, nearly implemented all of these a while back, bu then I started to get too complicated with the design so I tabled it till my head had cooled off and I could approach it in a more balanced and enjoyable manner. Since that time won't come soon, and you are messing with spells... take what you like

Spoiler Familiars :

01- imp (Twincast, but very weak spells, so mostly useful for casting Haste/Spring/Loyalty type spells)
02- efreeti (casting ability on par with the mage, so basically it is like having Twincast, but it can learn new spells seperately)
03- Mistlinx (Guardsman promoted protector)
04- phantom steed (Cargo: 1, high mobility)
05- Tar Beast (decent attack, inflicts a temporary Held promotion, cannot kill)
06- Hellion (solid attack strength, but damage inflicted on it is also inflicted on the mage)
07- Void Reaver, invisible to most all units, 1 move point, flying (but still just 1 move, so actually 0 movement base rate) and dies after combat, but does VERY heavy collateral damage and has a pretty decent base attack strength. Cannot reveal new map area
08- Sprite (City Bonuses, Culture/Science type)
09- Erdgeist (Defense & Production Bonuses for City)
10- Quintel (Can build Mana Nodes, nice workrate)
11- Watchdog (High Visibility, can see all invisible types, feedback promotion for Strength bonus to caster)
12 -Flurry (High Withdrawal, heals at start of combat, Blitz and good move rate, but weak)
13 -Spirit Projection (Creates a Spirit Projection (copy of all caster's abilities, can cast at same skill, can also cast "Split" spell which duplicates itself, but applies a 10% miscast chance, -5 Spell Power + debuff summons promotion to both self and split self.)
14- Cornucopia (Grants food & health to the city)
15- Drone (TradeRoutes to City, need to remove the limit on number of traderoutes per city though)
16- Drill Instructor (+2 XP to City, 30 Gold upkeep)
17- Disector (Science from Win, decent combat)
18 -Living Arrows (Good ranged attack capability)
19- Phylactery (Grants caster Immortality, but applies a large CityBonus penalty to you/team)
20- Mystical Tools (Can cast a spell to provide lots of production in a city, but has a long cast delay)
21- Mind Projection (Invisible_all, can eneter rival borders, CitySpy)
22- Chicken Legs (Can pick up any non-limited class building in the city and relocate it to another city (Needs significant code work still))




Promotion: Bound-State - Forces the units to move together, much like having Cargo, but not quite the same, mainly meant for the phantom steed
Promotion: Concentration - Cannot cast spells, applied by most of the casting type of familiars so that the mage can't cast, only the familiar

EDIT: Oh, and the miscast thing wouldn't require any DLL modification. Just give all of the rank 2 spells a 75% miscast chance, and all the rank 3 spells a 150% miscast chance. Then allow Channeling II to reduce miscast chances by 75, and channeling 3 reduce it by 150%. Then just remove the channeling prereqs from all the spells (they only require the lower level spellsphere) and you are set. Though any spells shared by non-caster units would require that you set them up with some counter-miscast capability then.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Before I forget about it again, I had sat down to think up some non-combat (primarily) summon units once a while ago. Except for a feedback system (slave units grant master unit a promotion while they are alive) which we might code soon here, everything required for them is possible already, or very easily added.

Anyway, nearly implemented all of these a while back, bu then I started to get too complicated with the design so I tabled it till my head had cooled off and I could approach it in a more balanced and enjoyable manner. Since that time won't come soon, and you are messing with spells... take what you like

Spoiler Familiars :

01- imp (Twincast, but very weak spells, so mostly useful for casting Haste/Spring/Loyalty type spells)
02- efreeti (casting ability on par with the mage, so basically it is like having Twincast, but it can learn new spells seperately)
03- Mistlinx (Guardsman promoted protector)
04- phantom steed (Cargo: 1, high mobility)
05- Tar Beast (decent attack, inflicts a temporary Held promotion, cannot kill)
06- Hellion (solid attack strength, but damage inflicted on it is also inflicted on the mage)
07- Void Reaver, invisible to most all units, 1 move point, flying (but still just 1 move, so actually 0 movement base rate) and dies after combat, but does VERY heavy collateral damage and has a pretty decent base attack strength. Cannot reveal new map area
08- Sprite (City Bonuses, Culture/Science type)
09- Erdgeist (Defense & Production Bonuses for City)
10- Quintel (Can build Mana Nodes, nice workrate)
11- Watchdog (High Visibility, can see all invisible types, feedback promotion for Strength bonus to caster)
12 -Flurry (High Withdrawal, heals at start of combat, Blitz and good move rate, but weak)
13 -Spirit Projection (Creates a Spirit Projection (copy of all caster's abilities, can cast at same skill, can also cast "Split" spell which duplicates itself, but applies a 10% miscast chance, -5 Spell Power + debuff summons promotion to both self and split self.)
14- Cornucopia (Grants food & health to the city)
15- Drone (TradeRoutes to City, need to remove the limit on number of traderoutes per city though)
16- Drill Instructor (+2 XP to City, 30 Gold upkeep)
17- Disector (Science from Win, decent combat)
18 -Living Arrows (Good ranged attack capability)
19- Phylactery (Grants caster Immortality, but applies a large CityBonus penalty to you/team)
20- Mystical Tools (Can cast a spell to provide lots of production in a city, but has a long cast delay)
21- Mind Projection (Invisible_all, can eneter rival borders, CitySpy)
22- Chicken Legs (Can pick up any non-limited class building in the city and relocate it to another city (Needs significant code work still))




Promotion: Bound-State - Forces the units to move together, much like having Cargo, but not quite the same, mainly meant for the phantom steed
Promotion: Concentration - Cannot cast spells, applied by most of the casting type of familiars so that the mage can't cast, only the familiar

EDIT: Oh, and the miscast thing wouldn't require any DLL modification. Just give all of the rank 2 spells a 75% miscast chance, and all the rank 3 spells a 150% miscast chance. Then allow Channeling II to reduce miscast chances by 75, and channeling 3 reduce it by 150%. Then just remove the channeling prereqs from all the spells (they only require the lower level spellsphere) and you are set. Though any spells shared by non-caster units would require that you set them up with some counter-miscast capability then.

Thank you! And I finally got your point about having spells scattered around the technology tree. Better late than never, I guess
I am currently thinking about changing the spell system to include miscasts, power increase with level and experience gain for the caster from casting a spell.
I will remove the offensive lines and, instead, I will just allow the spheres have more than one spell available at each level.
I will also implement denying spheres. e.g. picking the fire sphere will deny your caster ever getting the water sphere and so on.
I am also trying to figuer out something smart to allow for an illusion of "training" for a specific spell. Now that are going to be many, I do not really want to just give them all for free.
And, of course, one spell or two spells will come for free on KotE, but the others will have different tech requirments and they will need to be trained. For example, I think about having Spring available at sailing.

Oops I was reading these as Proposed FF changes... not a modmodmod

My bad

You ideas are quite interesting. And every contribution to the way things should feel better are very welcome. It is not that I have my mind fixed at the moment. Only the spells I post have been given some consideration.

 

[Breez]

I will also implement denying spheres. e.g. picking the fire sphere will deny your caster ever getting the water sphere and so on.

Others may hate that idea, but I like it a lot.

And, of course, one spell or two spells will come for free on KotE, but the others will have different tech requirments and they will need to be trained. For example, I think about having Spring available at sailing.

That would be a great way to do it.

 

[WarKirby]

Oops I was reading these as Proposed FF changes... not a modmodmod

My bad

Well, sometimes modmodmods get absorbed into FF, particularly if they're things everyone likes and can agree on. Jotnar, for example

 

[Breez]

Well, sometimes modmodmods get absorbed into FF, particularly if they're things everyone likes and can agree on. Jotnar, for example

*Cough*nameofthread*cough*