*Spoiler1* Gotm18-Celts - Full World Map

This is my second GOTM, and I suppose I will learn a lot again by comparing the QSC notes. Last month, I was quite happy with my early years; not quite so this time. I did not manage to do an early war, because I failed to get horses and was late in connecting my iron. :( Also my expansion was sort of slow: only 6 cities by 1000 BC. :(

I did only minimum research (not a single success), but early on sent 3 warriors north, west, and south. I made contacts with everybody by 1790 BC and bought techs from the AIs. In detail:

3000 BC: alphabet, pottery, bronze working
2900 BC: mysticism, masonry
2350 BC: wheel
2150 BC: iron working
1790 BC: horseback, writing (contact with everybody)
1275 BC: map making, mathematics, philosophy, polytheism, everybody's world map
1000 BC: code of law
950 BC: literature
875 BC: construction (goodie hut)
825 BC: currency
510 BC: monarchy
110 BC: engineering, feudalism, monotheism, republic

Being on pangea, Entremont started Pyramids in 1275 BC and finished them in 470 BC. We got no other early wonders. (We also didn't try.)

The pictures show the exploration of our warriors till 1275 BC, when we bought map making. This resulted in us paying 2 gpt, but getting 196g, map making, math, philosophy, polytheism. :D

tao_gotm18_post1.gif


Edit/add: And the Keltoi kingdom upon entering the Middle Ages:
tao_gotm18_ma.gif
 
Originally posted by cracker
Bill,

I am a bit confused here because it sound like you are saying you are doing one thing but the results does not look like you are coming close to succeeding at it.

(lots of peacefull expanding) <> (7 cities)

Sounds like you have some other undeclared or unresolved strategy conflict here.

I'm not sure either, but here is my timeline--there is little thought of early war. Maybe building those extra granaries slowed the expansion, with two or three more towns likely with a capital granary only. It took me until 2390 to build the first settler.

I may have wasted some worker moves clearing one forest tile. I believe I also built a temple in the capital around 1400 BC. AI units did float at my border and I feared an attack as all my early units went exploring. In response, I built a barracks in one city and built some veteran units. Still, with the old QSC scoring system and its emphasis on tech, my QSC score will be my best yet, despite the comparatively slow expansion (as compared to some) and implied strategy conflicts.

QSC 18 Keltoi Monarch level Civ III v 1.29, April 2003

4000 BC Worker move N to shield grass, sees forest. Capitol founded at start position, Warrior queued.

3950 Worker builds road then mines.

3750 Warrior complete, warrior next. Press E for autoexplore option, Warrior moves NW sees fish. After one auto move I take back control of warrior.

3700 Make circles to explore area near capital. Warrior N.

3650 Warrior N sees Gem Mountain north of capital.

3600 Warrior E sees Cow Plain east of capital.

3500 Warrior to hill near cow. Second warrior complete, warrior Q as prebuild will be too early for granary. 2nd warrior SE. Worker completes mining and moves towards fish to road that shield grass. Second city may be on the coast near fish.

3450 Both warriors E. The first warrior will go "long" while the 2nd will sweep around.

3400 Both warriors E.

3350 Third Warrior complete, temple next (prebuild for granary). Third warrior to explore to the dark west.

3300 Iroquois warrior a few tiles from my capital. They are five techs ahead! Research to 70% for Pottery in three turns.

3250 Warriors continue exploring. Nothing interesting.

3200 Wheat grass sighted about eight tiles east of capital.

3150 Pottery done, capital switches to granary. Masonry is only tech that Iroquois lack, so I start that at 1 gpt. Lake fish and plains wheat sighted South and East of the capital.

3050 Looks like a sparse map, as there are no other civs so far. Maybe it is a trick.

3000 Pop three in Entremont. Lux to 20%, res 20%, masonry in 37 turns at 1 gpt research.

2950 Red border of Rome sighted. Trade Pottery and Ceremonial Burial for their 10 gold and Alphabet. I decide to dump the four turns of research in Masonry and switch to Writing. Micromanage Entremont to switch one citizen to the lake to get more gold. Early completion of Granary will not help me until the pop increases.

2900 Another citizen to lake, granary in seven turns, pop growth in eight. Res 10%, lux 10% with the lake gold coming in, 43 gold, 6 per turn.

2800 Worker moves to Forest tile N of Entremont. Chopping forest outside of cultural border will gives shields in time for settler production.

2750 Iroquois and Rome, boy, those are two tough early war opponents.

2710 Cow plain sighted approx nine tiles southwest of Entremont.

2610 Granary complete, settler next.

2590 Two volcanoes, one on top of the other sighted to the far north. Dyes sighted approx 13 tiles southwest of capital.

2550 Pop four now, lux to 30%, res 10%, writing in 31 turns, 88 gold in treasury, +4 gpt. One warrior is behind Rome now. Others are also exploring far and wide, still only two civs contacted.

2510 Lime-Green border to the southwest. Ivory tiles behind Rome.

2470 It is Greece, yet another tough early war opponent. They are four techs ahead, as are the Iroquois, Rome is only one tech ahead (that I can see), so I do not feel so bad.

2390 Finally, a setter! Settler next. Move settler next to fish lake nearest capital. Pop to two, 0% lux, 10% res.

2350 Forest cut done to give ten shields to Entremont. After some thinking, move worker to shield grass near new city. Alesia (2nd city) founded near fish lake, citizen works fish tile for more gold and faster growth, though some warriors are badly needed as all cities are empty. Lux 10% now that capital is back to pop three, writing in 26 turns at 1 gpt.

2230 Purple border sighted far to the southeast.

2190 Settler complete, capital to pop one, so res to 30% to maintain 1 gpt research (actually 2 gpt). Settler next. Micromanage so Alesia works mined shield grass for the one turn that that capital can not.

2150 Lux 10%, res 10%, as capital back to pop two. Writing in 21 turns, 134 gold in treasury, +5 gpt. Purple border was Iroquois.

2110 Lugdunum (3rd city) founded three tiles west of capital. Warrior queued. Alesia has switched to a worker.

2070 Elite Roman warrior on mountain near capital. I sure hope he doesn't want to fight as there are still no garrisons in my fledgling empire. Brown border, NeoCarthage contacted to the west. They are two techs ahead, I consider trading, but techs only get cheaper as time goes on.

1990 Roman warrior slides by. Greek regular warrior approaches, again it is time to sweat.

1950 Entremont settler complete, warrior queued.

1910 No enemies enter my borders. With all the open land, Alesia switches to Granary.

1830 I tire of moving the far flung warriors and set some to autoexplore (Press E).

1790 Entremont warrior complete, settler next. Camulodunum (4th city) founded at other lake fish. Granary queued.

1750 Teal Aztec warrior contacted. They are four techs ahead.

1725 Lugnudum warrior complete, warrior next. Elite Roman warrior flirts at the border. Iroquois regular warrior approaches.

1675 Lugnudum switches to barracks. If there is to be war let me be ready.

1625 Autoexploring warriors find France. Lugnudum completes barracks, warrior next.

1600 I get The Wheel from hut (autoexplore). Entremont switches to Temple, I tire of having to crank up research so high to get 1 gpt.

1550 Roman regular archer approaches. Entermont switches to warrior, just in case. Richborough (5th city) founded on river hill near gems. Temple queued to expand borders to get gems.

1525 Lugnudum makes first vet warrior, another queued. Entremont warrior complete.

1475 Writing complete, Literature next at 1 gpt. I make a flurry of trades for techs and contacts. I establish several embassies with the saved gold. It looks like no early war as the nearby opponents are strong with tough Ancient Age unique units.

1425 Alesia granary complete, settler next.

1375 Entremont settler complete. Warrior next. Move settler to iron south of capital.

1325 Greek regular warrior crosses border near Lugnudum.

1300 Lux 10% for pop five Alesia.

1200 Veranuminium (6th city) founded near cow plains east of capital.

1175 Georgia (7th city) founded on top of iron hill seven tiles due south of Entremont.

1125 Most civs are three techs ahead (Mathematics, Philosophy, Map Making).

1025 I make a flurry of trades to catch up on tech.
 
Billchin- I built 2 granaries. But I built a settler first, to allow my worker time to get mines down before starting on the first granary. I built 3 warriors, settler, granary in entremont. I wanted to use the fish right away, because with Alesia using just the fish and 1 bonus grassland, it could keep building a settler, with no granary needed. I lucked out with making contacts, so the slaves I got enabled me to build a granary in Alesia also. Sir Pleb built 3 granaries. We both had 13 cities (of our own-I got one more city through peace negotiations) at 1000 BC. I had a city share the fish, like Sir Pleb, but I didn't put a granary in that second city (that city kind of helped in both military production and settler production).
Alesia used the mined bonus grassland to speed up build of the granary, but once the granary was completed it would work the fish. After each city had 2 mined bonus grassland to work, then I put my worker/slaves to chop forests. This was timed not to help the speed of finishing the granary, but for the settler.
3000-settler (entremont)
2950-Alesia founded
2310-Granary (entremont)
2190-Granary (Alesia)
2150-Settler (entremont)
1990-Settler (Alesia)
 
Hmm, I built early Workers in both Entremont and Alesia. While that slowed my core down in the QSC period, and must have cost some points, I'm not regretting the investment. My slaves were far away, improving Carthage / Paris / Orleans, preparing new sites and connecting my core with those cities and the luxuries. :)

How many years was I behind when Alesia's second Settler settled (Richborough)?

3000-Settler (Entremont)
2950-Alesia
2670-Worker (Entremont)
2630-Worker (Alesia)
2110-Temple (Entremont) (starts on The Pyramids)
1910-Granary (Alesia, next turn size 3)
1675-Settler (Alesia)
(1600-Lugdunum near Carthage)
1575-Camulodonium
1500-Settler (Alesia)
1425-Richborough
.
.
1025-The Pyramids (Entremont), sold Alesia's Granary
 
Well, I tried it with a capital granary only and it came out to ten cities and one settler (vs. seven cities, and one settler). Better but still not up to the elite players. Both BamSpeedy and Ribannah poached some early workers/cities in their initial contact/war phase, but there still seems to be something else missing, that I have not be able to reproduce even after reading the old QSC timelines. I did manage 13 cities, with no granary, but that is still well behind a player with two granaries and a similar base of cities.
+ Bill
 
Here's my meager growth.

4000BC Entremont founded
3000BC Settler from Entremont after 3 warriors
2900BC Alesia founded
2310BC Granary in Entremont
2070BC Settler from Entremont after warrior and granary
2030BC Settler from Alesia after warrior
1950BC Lugdunum founded
1920BC Camulodunum founded
1475BC Settler from Entremont after 2 warriors, barracks, warrior
1450BC Settler from Alesia after worker, warrior
1400BC Richborough founded
1275BC Verulamium founded
1250BC Settler from Entremont after warrior
1000BC Leocantores founded

I was hoping for a mass warrior upgrade but my commerce was a bit shy for the Gallic force I originally planned. Rome was taken with all horsemen. Carthage (the city) consumed alot of GSs before finally falling.
 
Originally posted by ControlFreak
Here's my meager growth.
1000BC Leocantores founded
What! You had a Lionsinger town? ;)

I was hoping for a mass warrior upgrade but my commerce was a bit shy for the Gallic force I originally planned. Rome was taken with all horsemen.
Nothing wrong with that. I've never done a massive Warrior upgrade in any of my games. (Somehow I can't bring myself to use such 'cheap' tactics. I know - there is no compelling reason to feel that way. I just do.)
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
Nothing wrong with that. I've never done a massive Warrior upgrade in any of my games. (Somehow I can't bring myself to use such 'cheap' tactics. I know - there is no compelling reason to feel that way. I just do.)

I wouldn't call that 'cheap'. For the cost of 80 gold per swordman upgrade, it's much cheaper to build than to upgrade.
 
Originally posted by Ribannah

What! You had a Lionsinger town? ;)
I renamed Lleorycantores to Leocantores in honor of Moonsinger whom I always think of as a great lioness (rather than a moon);) Just kidding. I had a bit of a typo in my post.:lol:

Originally posted by Ribannah
I've never done a massive Warrior upgrade in any of my games. (Somehow I can't bring myself to use such 'cheap' tactics. I know - there is no compelling reason to feel that way. I just do.)
This was my second. It was hardly a cheap tactic at 80g/Gallic Sword. I much prefer the legionary despite the retreat ability.
 
Originally posted by Ribannah
How many years was I behind when Alesia's second Settler settled (Richborough)?

I founded Richborough at 1700 BC.
1625-Verulamium founded (I think this one was by the horse, as I didn't found the city until 3 turns after building the settler).
1500-Gergovia founded
1450-LLeorycantores founded
Brempovia founded.
1300-Syrplebonum founded.
Augustodurum founded.
1150-Agedincum founded.
Eboracum founded.
1050-Get an aztec city for peace.
1000-I have a settler in transit.
 
As Bamspeedy noted I started with the same sequence: three warriors, settler, granary. But Bamspeedy's dates are a bit ahead of me all the way and ended up a city ahead of me (plus another from a peace deal). My towns were at these dates:

4000: Entremont in start position
2950: Alesia NE of the fish on the NE lake
2030: Lugdunum S of the same fish
1750: Camulodunum SW of the northern gems
1625: Richborough N of the southern iron
1575: Verulamium N of the southern fish
1375: Gergovia on coast, between river and cattle
1375: LLeorycantores NE,NE,N from Entremont
1225: Brempovia E,E,SE from Entremont
1175: Syrplebonum SW of the eastern horses
1150: Augustodurum W,NW,NW from Lugdunum
1000: Agedincum 3 tiles NW of Syrplebonum

Entremont finished granary at 2310, Alesia at 2070, Lugdunum at 1400.
 
I got 11, I only built one granary, and popped another worker out right after Entremont finished its granary. At the start I built 4+ warriors, while I was building mines. Prebuilt with barracks for the granary, in hindsight I think just building a settler instead may have better filled that spot, although I would lose the time and pop for the early worker. (But with that fish there it would be worth to settle that quickly.)

I'm at least 3 cities off Plebs and Bamspeedy, I did capture carthage though. I'll have to say all those lakes did slow down the initial settling process, not to mention that they were obstacles.

Here is the brief timeline:
4000 BC founded Entremont
2750 BC took Carthage
2590 BC *(first settler build) Entremont finished worker now building settler
2270 BC founded Alesia
1675 BC founded Lugdunum
1550 BC founded Camulodunum
1475 BC founded Richborough
1300 BC founded Verulamium
1250 BC founded Gergovia
1225 BC founded Leorycantores
1025 BC founded Brempovia
1000 BC founded Syrplebonum

I also had another settler on route at 1000 BC.
 
I think having less (but well-improved) cities early on worked to my advantage (given my yet unrevealed goal for this game ;)). Corruption was so low that Carthage had an easy time building the Forbidden Palace. Even faraway Orleans contributed.
Nonetheless, I eventually came to the end of the city list and founded Dublin in 90 AD. :)

A strange thing happened to Paris in my game (still within this thread's scope). It started to oscillate on and off WLTK, one turn producing two shields (even less than Orleans), the other six. I had never seen WLTK make that much difference before.
 
Didn't put this in my first post because I hadn't read the whole thread yet, but something does seem odd with the flips in this game. You can see from the minimap I just edited into the last post (page 9 I think; there'll be another one below, too), that the Greeks settled a town just four tiles from my capital (at least 15 from theirs). Their town was still with unexpanded borders for turns and turns after Entremont had temple and Pyramids and it wasn't heavily defended either, as I had occasion later to find out (*cough* :p ). I've never seen a town in that situation last that long without flipping before.

At any rate, on to the rest of the ancient ages.

- Horses finally hooked up in 825BC.
- War against Rome starting in 450BC and going past the end of this thread (wasn't the most efficient war I've ever fought :lol: ). I did get the dyes and the ivory by 270 BC, which helped a great deal.
- Bought all my techs in this era - no self-research. Got currency in 530BC, construction in 450BC, and republic in 310BC (with immediate revolt).
- Got iron hooked up in 290 BC from the source up north - gallic swords kept retreating, though, and I didn't get my golden age until 150 BC.
- No great leaders ... in this thread's time period anyway .... ;)
- In 30BC coughed up some cash for feudalism and traded for engineering, getting me officially into the middle ages. Rome was down to 2 cities.

Here's the minimap from a bit later (190 AD) when I finally got rid of Rome (told you it wasn't the most efficient of wars)

190ADminimap.jpg


Felt like the tech pace was very very slow through this period, although I guess it wasn't compared to some games. I couldn't research myself, so I had to rely on the AI. Yet more giving away of techs, and buying early and inefficiently just to increase the odds of civs researching different things. It worked fairly well - construction and currency showed up about the same time, and so did republic and monarchy. Still feels horribly slow, though.

Now I need to get my QSC timeline reformatted and get it submitted before the deadline! :lol:

Renata
 
WoundedKnight,
I am very interested to see how you moved your first archer(s). When did you first attack with the archer, and how many times before it became elite? What opposition were you facing? When the archer was elite, how many times did you attack before you got your first great leader?
I was thinking the archer may have received elite status by defending against barbarians, but I can't imagine where and when.

Ribannah,
that start you had is very similar to my replay game. Nice.
 
I think the probability for getting elite promotion or a great leader is very simple. For a certain number of win, you will get a promotion or a great leader. Let's say you have only one vet unit around 1 AD and you have never at war with anyone before until now. During your very first battle, your unit may instantly become elite and a great leader come after the second battle. Why? Although it was really your first battle, it wasn't really the first battle ever fought on earth. While you are peacefully resting during the last 4000 years, the AIs have fought and won many battles before you. Because for a certain number of win, a promtion or a great leader will come. In this case, you just rob a great leader from the AIs. Therefore, the more battle going on else where in your world, the more chance for every one (both you and the AI) to get great leader. In my game, the Chinese got two armies of swordman very early, that was why I didn't dare to reject their demand until I had something I could throw at their armies.
 
Really? I didn't know about that, but now that you say it, it makes sense from my own experience. So WoundedKnight stole the veteran and elite promotion, and later also stole the great leader. That would make him much less lucky than I first thought he was.
 
If the program actually uses a Random Number Generator, it is far more likely that each victory rolls a die and determines if its a promotion/leader. The odd of promotions will alway be the same (higher if your militaristic). I forget the exact numbers but there was a thread on this somewhere. Note that the chance of getting a leader is not increaced by the militaristic trait, only by completing the Heroic epic.

I think WoundedKnight had a kind RNG.
 
Found an entry by Catt
Originally posted by Catt
Checking the FAQs or doing a thread search is always a good idea -- many of your questions can be answered in one easy search.

Some of the basics on Great Leader generation:

* GLs are generated only from elite units winning a battle against an AI, not a barbarian. This battle can take place in the open, against a city, even on a transport (in the case of a marine attacking amphibiously -- which happened to me once )
* The base odds of GL generation from a successful battle are 1/16 when the elite unit is attacking, 1/32 when defending.
* The base odds are improved to 1/12 on offense and 1/24 on defense after you have built the Heroic Epic small wonder. The Heroic Epic may only be built if you have achieved at least one victorious battle with an army (and since a GL is needed for an army, you can only ever hope to build the Heroic Epic to increase your chances for a second GL).
* Militaristic civs do not benefit from any modification to the base odds -- they do however generate unit promotions more quickly (i.e., regular -> veteran -> elite) which generally means more elites and therefore more "battle chances" with elites to try and generate a GL.
* Each specific unit can generate only one GL -- for example, an elite chariot can generate a GL, but will not generate another one - ever (other chariots could still do so). If, however, you upgrade that chariot to a horseman, then the newly created horseman can get a promotion to elite and thereafter generate a GL, but won't generate another one - ever. If however you upgrade . . . and so on.
* You cannot have more than one GL at any time. As long as he hangs around unused, you will not generate another.
* Armies cannot generate GLs.

I have gone through some 30 or so "leader eligible" elite unit victories without generating a GL; I have also generated GLs on back-to-back battles (immediately used the first GL to build an army -- next battle GL#2). If you fight and win enough battles with elite units, you will generate GLs -- but it can be frustrating sometimes.

How to improve your chances? Several tactics that I and others use: You must fight, and potentially fight a lot. You must also fight wisely -- sometimes your motives for fighting will be leader generation rather than taking cities, killing units, etc. What does fighting wisely mean? Preserve your elite units. Try to conduct your battles so that your elite units are attacking wounded defnders (preferably weaker units as well), and never risk an elite unit if it's wounded and facing a battle it could lose. You never want to lose an elite unit in battle. By carefully husbanding your elite units, and using them when the time is right, you should be on your way to leader generation. Just remember, 1/16 odds aren't great -- if I recall etj4Eagle's thread correctly, I think that translates into a roughly 50/50 chance of a leader in your first 11 elite victories.

One other hint (provided you have the patience to do this -- I often don't): Some players will use barbarian villages as unit "training grounds" -- stationing their units nearby but not attacking the barbarian village -- when a barb comes out every 10 or so turns, the player will attack the unit but leave the village untouched -- all in the hopes of causing unit promotions to "elite" through barbarian fighting (these elites will then be used against AI troops to try and generate a leader).
 
Yes, it has nothing to do with earlier AI fighting. Also, the RNG used for getting a leader is not the same as the general RNG sequence that determines hits, promotions and hut results.

With so many of us playing, there is a good chance that at least one of us gets lucky. This time it was WoundedKnight. Next month it will be, er ...

:ninja: :ninja: :sheep: :ninja: :ninja:
 
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