That's an interesting point. I've noticed that the Ottomans don't have a single harbour, so not allowing me to trade luxuries/resources with them.
*Spoiler2* - Gotm21-Melee - End of Medieval Age
- Thread starter cracker
- Start date
I think you have to do it the old fashion way, just sign ROP then send your workers over to build road for them. That was exactly what I did. I built a city near their border and rushed a harbor there while having my workers to build road all the way to the Ottoman nearest town which was about 3 squares away. Once I had road connection to the Ottomans, I used their roads to trade with the Celts and used the Lighthouse of the Celts to trade with the Atlantis people. Of course, I also helpped the Rusians with their road construction project too. I need a back up trade route just in case the Ottomans decide to turn against me.
rabies
Happy Dad
wow...I guess this is the kind of thinking that differentiates the great player from us intermediate players. I am afraid to admit that I have always sat and twiddled my thumbs waiting for the AI to get their act together and build harbors or finish the roadwork for trade routes. I have never thought about taking control of the situation for myself. Thank you for another great tip moonsinger!
hotrod0823
Deity
I have seen Ottoman and Celt galleys along with Persia, Spain and Atlantis, and Egypt. I don't think that is it.
What I do find interesting is the distribution of resources. Iron is scarce and Atlantis and Russia paid handsomely for it for 20 turns during the Middle Ages. My hope is coal and aluminium are just as scarce.
Are the AI suppossed to fight for resources? I haven't seen too many battles. Rome and Atlantis have flared up now and again and Russia is in constant battle with the Ottomans but really there haven't been any true warmongers amoung the group.
As far as trading goes my trade with the Celts in the Early Middle ages went belly up when the road from the harbor was pillaged (I guess by barbs). That has really made buying techs that much harder
.
What I do find interesting is the distribution of resources. Iron is scarce and Atlantis and Russia paid handsomely for it for 20 turns during the Middle Ages. My hope is coal and aluminium are just as scarce.
Are the AI suppossed to fight for resources? I haven't seen too many battles. Rome and Atlantis have flared up now and again and Russia is in constant battle with the Ottomans but really there haven't been any true warmongers amoung the group.
As far as trading goes my trade with the Celts in the Early Middle ages went belly up when the road from the harbor was pillaged (I guess by barbs). That has really made buying techs that much harder
.Looks as if cracker modded some civs and crowded the map to ****** research. Normally with 16 civs you could expect tech to be fairly fast even at monarchy. Even by giving all tech away for free the AI seems awfully slow to get anything in my game. Since the AI was so weak I decided to go to education instead of the cavalry route and I ended up getting all the way to banking before one of the AI got engineering. 
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
The Harbor issue is just one of those "weaknesses" in the AI decision programming that does not let or encourage the AI's to build the first harbor.
I am not sure yet if this will be one of the things that gets fixed in the next expansion pack but it definately ought to be a high priority.
The Harbor improvement should be split in to two improvements: "fishing village" and "harbor". The "fishing village" would increase food production in water and should be coded as a "seafaring" improvement and should cost 40 shields normally and 20 shields for seafaring civs. "The harbor should allow vet boats and trade and should be coded as "seafaring", "Commercial", and "Military" and should cost 40 shields as well with no prerequisite improvement.
The AI needs an adjustment to make it a higher priority to build the first harbor almost one the scale of a small wonder or great wonder level decision.
FYI, nothing has been altered in this Gotm21 game to impact AI harbor production. Sometimes it seems as if the AI is deliberately programmed not to build harbors.
I am not sure yet if this will be one of the things that gets fixed in the next expansion pack but it definately ought to be a high priority.
The Harbor improvement should be split in to two improvements: "fishing village" and "harbor". The "fishing village" would increase food production in water and should be coded as a "seafaring" improvement and should cost 40 shields normally and 20 shields for seafaring civs. "The harbor should allow vet boats and trade and should be coded as "seafaring", "Commercial", and "Military" and should cost 40 shields as well with no prerequisite improvement.
The AI needs an adjustment to make it a higher priority to build the first harbor almost one the scale of a small wonder or great wonder level decision.
FYI, nothing has been altered in this Gotm21 game to impact AI harbor production. Sometimes it seems as if the AI is deliberately programmed not to build harbors.
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
FYI, this is absolutely false and cannot be supported by any reasonable interpretation of the map conditions.
Originally posted by Moonsinger
I think you have to do it the old fashion way, just sign ROP then send your workers over to build road for them. That was exactly what I did. I built a city near their border and rushed a harbor there while having my workers to build road all the way to the Ottoman nearest town which was about 3 squares away. Once I had road connection to the Ottomans, I used their roads to trade with the Celts and used the Lighthouse of the Celts to trade with the Atlantis people. Of course, I also helpped the Rusians with their road construction project too. I need a back up trade route just in case the Ottomans decide to turn against me.
Aw, come on Moonsinger, those roads weren't really built for trade now were they?
Historically which civ was the first to use the practice of building roads as a major part of their military strategy? The Romans?
In my game, the Carthagians and Persians were very good researchers. I followed the Military Tradition path (since I have the Great Library) and one of them followed the Education path. When I finally reached the end of the Middle age, those two guys were just 1 tech behide me. Even though I tried very hard not to sell them any tech, they got caught up own their own.
Maybe we're all still suffering from Deity Paranoia from last month
I suppose that might explain it. I went for Democracy/Economics, and it was ages before the AI's researched Gun Powder/Music Theory. Maybe I kept trading them tech's they had partially researched!
I did really build those road for comercial purposes.
My citizens (just like the historical Romans) need a lot of luxuries. Also a large military does require a lot of upkeep too; therefore, I need to get those trade routes ASAP. Since there are plenty of room to expand in the direction of the Minoans and the Germans and because I thought that the Ottomans was a scientific civ, I had every good intention of becoming their best friend at first and I kept my end of the deal all the way until 500 AD.Originally posted by Moonsinger
In my game, the Carthagians and Persians were very good researchers. I followed the Military Tradition path (since I have the Great Library) and one of them followed the Education path. When I finally reached the end of the Middle age, those two guys were just 1 tech behide me. Even though I tried very hard not to sell them any tech, they got caught up own their own.
I think the difference in what we are seeing is the playstyle. I am too lazy to play correctly and expand as you are. Instead I am expanding slowly and concentrating on research, thereby getting to the end of the age quicker than you but having much less territory. All I am trying to do is get a quick space win without pushing a lot of units around.
hotrod0823
Deity
There has been a lot of talk about the tech pace but I checked back at GOTM 18 and from the looks of things this game is progressing at the same rate. Most were hitting industrial around 700AD give or take. Here some players are getting there even soon 
.
The sizes of the civs are about the same size as 18 I think. Both were crowed maps with a lot of civs.
The bigger question I guess if the effect of Predator vs. Open on the tech rate ??
Hotrod
.The sizes of the civs are about the same size as 18 I think. Both were crowed maps with a lot of civs.
The bigger question I guess if the effect of Predator vs. Open on the tech rate ??
Hotrod
I think a proper reference point is what year is it?
You could very easily outpace the AI at this difficulty so it would seem they are doing nothing. I've been letting the AI get the optional techs while I burn away at the others. And they have not helped me get any of the required techs, but I have been able to get very large gpt deals selling them.
I've only been feeding them techs when I need to renew or just need money and I have kept a steady 500-1000gpt with the AI for some time.
I got to IA around 600AD or so give or take a few.
[edit: me bad grammar.]
You could very easily outpace the AI at this difficulty so it would seem they are doing nothing. I've been letting the AI get the optional techs while I burn away at the others. And they have not helped me get any of the required techs, but I have been able to get very large gpt deals selling them.
I've only been feeding them techs when I need to renew or just need money and I have kept a steady 500-1000gpt with the AI for some time.
I got to IA around 600AD or so give or take a few.
[edit: me bad grammar.]
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
![[civ3]](/images/smilies/civ3.gif "Civ3 Icon [civ3]")
ConquestHere's my log from 1000 BC to the startof the Industrial Age. Any comments and/or criticisms are welcome.
1000 BC Adjusted Science to 50% so I can get Warrior Code in 8 turns.
925 BC Established embassies with the Ottomans and the Germans. Both are well on their way to the pyramids Suleyman in 21 turns, Otto in 16. Also found out that the Ottomans are on the landmass to the NW.
875 BC Founded Mycanae on east side on inland sea. Idea is to secure incense and gold. Started a worker to with an idea of connecting to the Greek Empire. Next Settler will go NE of Delphi.
800 BC Adjusted Science to 80% - Polytheism in 21 turns
690 BC French complete the Pyramids Expect a cascade of wonders to fall.
670 BC Found Plebos Nexia NE of Delphi. Volak sells me contact with the Keltoi for 80 gold. The Ottomans build the Oracle. Built an embassy with the Keltoi. They dont look very strong.
650 BC Brennus sells us The Wheel for 50 gold. He is polite. Checked his techs and he has Iron Working.
630 BC The Russians build The Colossus.
590 BC Minoans build the Great Library. There goes that plan.
450 BC Adjusted science to 10% - Monarchy in 40 turns. Otto threats me. Demands Polythesim. We give in. Im not ready for a war. Need to get ready.
430 BC Found Herakleia on southern point. Minoans have a settling party headed my way. Plan on delaying them with a wedge. Founded Qitaiodea in center of Empire.
410 BC Minoan settler not heading towards Empire anymore. Probably heading towards Argos.
350 BC Racing Minoans for Settling last spot east of inland sea.
310 BC Minoans declared war on Ottomans. Lets try not to get caught up in this. Zulus got the Great Lighthouse. No wonders for Bugsy.
290 BC France & Minoans have an alliance against Suleyman and Joan has joined the war. If I can stay out of this maybe I can catch up in techs.
270 BC I win the settling race and found Brempalonica between Argos and Mycanae.
190 BC Found Epheus on the northern point. Cathy joins the war against the Ottomans. Lets try some trade with Suleyman. Maybe he needs the gold.
170 BC Trade Iron Working for 130G plus World Map. Then Horseback Riding for 130G.
130 BC The Kelts join the war, but Joan sues for peace. Time for more negotiating with Suleyman.
110 BC Got Math from Suleyman for 130G & WM. Traded Brennen for Currency in exchange for WM, 15GPT, and 61G. Otto joins the war on Suleymans side.
90 BC Founded Thessalonica just west of Hamburg. Minoans and Ottomans sign a peace treaty, but continues fighting Otto.
70 BC Cleo joins the war against the Minoans.
30 BC Spain joins the war on the side of the Minoans. Hope I can stay out of this till Monarchy. I dont want a GA till then.
10BC founded Rhodes near Minoans. One more city and then consolidate. Ottomans and Spain are fighting the Egyptians.
30 AD Minoans took Konigburg.
50 AD Konigburg changes hands twice. Germans then Minoans.
70 AD Spain joins the war on the side of Germany. Keep fighting boys. 14 turns till Monarchy. 16-17 till out of Despotism. Persia joins against Minoans. Konigburg swaps twice again Germans then Minoans.
90 AD French complete Great Wall. I need to start meeting more people.
110 AD Trade Volak contact with the Altantians for WM and 140G. Found Etreia on a hill NW of Konigburg. Establish embassy in Atlantis for 45G. Theyre doing well.
130 AD Meet Atlas. He looks like the Aztec dude. He wants to trade TMs plus 29G. Find out hes just south of me. I also know that hes the guy who wiped out the Romans. Atlas joins the war against Volak. Hittites and Minoans go to war against the Kelts. Here comes a Minoan settling party looking to settle in the middle of my empire. I try to stop him with a wedge until I can settle it.
150 AD Brennan wants me to join against the Minoans with a ROP. I give him a ROP, my WM and 15G to stay out of the war. Volak and Cleo sign a peace treaty.
170 AD Egypt and the Ottomans sign a peace treaty. Using my N-S road I should be able to form a human shield against the settler.
210 AD Volak demands TM and 21G. I give in.
250 AD Looks like the Germans are going to settle just south of Sparta. I set up a block with workers and a treasure. Otto wants to swap TMs plus 30G from me. After trying for a lesser amount, I give it to him. The Germans lose their settler galley to a squid after they cant land. The war rages over my lands. Now I know how the Belgians felt in WWII.
260 AD Egypt comes in on the side of the Minoans against the Kelts.
270 AD Germany is fighting the Ottomans now. I dont think any knows who is on their side anymore. I think there are three different factions. The Ottomans built the Hanging Gardens. The Minoans have two settlers heading north. My human wall should keep them out.
290 AD Monarchy finally! Our civilization descends into AnarchyL. The Minoan settler clear my land and head east. Thank you Zeus! Im not in Monotheism yet.
310 AD Cathy and Suleyman sign a peace treaty. Still not out of Anarchy. Suleyman demands TM and 26G. So I give in. I try for contact with Miss Arc but it costs 130G and he wont take a gpt deal.
320 AD - Finally out of anarchy. Begin the reign of King Alexander I!! Found Troy in the center of the Empire. A much better location than the original Troy. One last place to settle in the Empire. Hanover is razed by the Minoans.
340 AD Looks like the Minoans are trying to settle where Hanover was. Germany and the Ottomans sign a peace treaty.
360 AD Now it is Germany and the Kelts and against the Hittites. Keep fighting boys!
380 AD Babylon and Kelts against Egypt.
410 AD Trade Volak Construction for Iron. He is Gracious.
450 AD The war rages and I found Marathon at the former Hanover location.
590 AD Minoan city of Nirou joins up to become Greek.
620 AD Made contact with Cleo. She is cautious and wont trade maps. The only tech she is ahead is the Republic and she wont even trade that.
680 AD Germans & Minoans finally sign a peace treaty, almost 800 years.
700 AD Found Halicarnassus.
750 AD Found Pergamon on the Ottoman side of the straits.
800 AD The Hittites have been destroyed. Another civ Ill never meet.
810 AD Make contact with the X-man. Hes polite but wont trade for anything.
820 AD A second city, Miletos is founded on the Ottoman side.
870 AD Founded Artesium.
920 AD Made contact with Spain. Ferdy was annoyed and wouldnt trade anything.
1000 AD Met Shaka. Traded Iron for Invention. Wouldnt trade maps or any tech. But I offered him Incense and I got contact with Cathy, his TM and Music Theory. Lets talk to Cathy. Cathy wouldnt trade WM, but for incense I got contact with the Babs, her TM and 2G. Now for the Babs. Hammy was polite but wouldnt trade anything. I have contact with neo-Carthage too. Hannabaline (who looks a bit lke Joan) traded spices and the Printing Press for Incense. Must be powerful stuff. For Cotton, I got her TM and The Republic. She was polite.
New Plan Corruption is killing me. Need to switch to Democracy or Republic ASAP. Keep trading. Set up MPP and ROP against Minoans. Ask them to leave spark a war that they declare so I wont get war weariness. Spark GA.
1010 AD The Republican Revolution begins.
1070 AD Now begins the Greek Republic.
1080 AD Suleyman wants an alliance against the Russians plus a ROP. Well go for it.
1210 AD Made an alliance with Atlantis against the Spanish. We then declared war. This could be bad. But they are far away. I get Navigation from Atlas for my WM and 490G. Lets see if I can sell it.
1220 AD I finally get the WM. There are a few small gaps, but now I know whats out there. On to war. Better make it short. Lerapytna overthrows their oppressors and joins the Greek Republic.
1320 AD Pergamon goes over to the Ottomans.
1355 AD Industrial Age.
This snapshot was taken at the end of my Middle Age (around 1100 AD - give or take a few turns). My ROP with Russia just expired and I asked Cathy to leave, she declared war. By the next turn, Persia demanded Spices from me, I said no; he declared war too. Therefore, I had no choice but to give Nagivation to the rest of the world to seal an alliance against Persia.
By the next turn, Persia demanded Spices from me, I said no; he declared war too. Therefore, I had no choice but to give Nagivation to the rest of the world to seal an alliance against Persia.Moonsinger: I did something like that at one point in my game too. Persia declared war on me, and I had some techs to sell and most of the AI didn't have much to offer, so I figured I might as well at least have them jump in against Persia.
At the time I was small though (this was umm, early middle ages I think), and Persia had their island to themselves. As near as I could tell, nothing ever came of all of these supposed "wars". I know I never saw a single Persian unit prior to declaring peace.
Unfortunately I did something similar when Spain declared against me, and then I declared peace with Spain too early and everyone now hates me for breaking our alliances against Spain. So now that I'd actually want to do something useful like have neighbors fight up on the large northern continent to open a two front war against Germany or Russia, I can't due to everyone being furious with me. Dang it
At the time I was small though (this was umm, early middle ages I think), and Persia had their island to themselves. As near as I could tell, nothing ever came of all of these supposed "wars". I know I never saw a single Persian unit prior to declaring peace.
Unfortunately I did something similar when Spain declared against me, and then I declared peace with Spain too early and everyone now hates me for breaking our alliances against Spain. So now that I'd actually want to do something useful like have neighbors fight up on the large northern continent to open a two front war against Germany or Russia, I can't due to everyone being furious with me. Dang it
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Yeti,
I had a war with Brennus against Russia. He never showed a single unit. I got all but Kiev and Moscow. Cathy sued for peace and gave me Moscow, and all she had left was Kiev. Then Brennus was forever pissed off at me.
Go figure the AI mindset.
I had a war with Brennus against Russia. He never showed a single unit. I got all but Kiev and Moscow. Cathy sued for peace and gave me Moscow, and all she had left was Kiev. Then Brennus was forever pissed off at me.
Go figure the AI mindset.
Although they never really killed each others, just as long as they are at war to each other, the tech pace will be slow quite a bit. In this case, since Persia was the most advance AI civ in the game, that would leave me as their only tech supplier for the rest of the civs.
Btw, immediately 1 turn after that alliance was signed, I was able to sell my tech for a lot of gpt.
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