SSE/WE RAMESSES II Insane BtS Walkthrough
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VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
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- 3,663
We've had this discussion already. You were challenged to provide a save that demonstrated the behavior of a tie. That challenge is still unanswered.
I don't expect that you can answer it, because the code logic doesn't support that model. The 2.13 code doesn't support the theory at all, which leaves only the question of whether city production was dramatically different pre-patch. That strikes me as highly unlikely, but you could demonstrate that it is so by re-installing warlords from an unpatched CD, and comparing the code there.
obsolete
Deity
Gliese, thanks for the link, I'll try to read over the pdf shortly.
VoU..
I re-read your other quote about checking the wonder screen. Now this seems to be a terrible implementation for a GUI. Wasn't the whole point of the message indicator supposed to inform us if the wonder has been completed yet or not?
Why are we supposed to keep checking two screens deep like a maniac each turn just to watch out for this? Come to think of it, when we used to be notified of the wonders being completed in far off lands, why were we still able to work on it for another round? Bug? Or some other reason.
Anyhow, here is a save from one of my deity games. Please note the following.
* Never did I receive any message from the system that the Pyramids have been completed anywhere. This is standard procure (unless they changed it) to inform us of this event.
* We have enough regular hammers to complete the Pyramids by the end of the turn.
* Just incase there is any shred of evidence to this over-flow determiner, we can still whip this (despite we really don't need to), just to be super duper safe.
----
No matter what we do this turn, and yes the pyramids are completed by us 100% by the end of this turn, we will simply find out NEXT turn that we lost to a tie.
But alas, when we do check the wonder screen, DESPITE NO NOTIFICATION WAS SENT TO US, there it is, secretly hiding along with ours on the list. BOTH of our wonders are listed on the top of the wonderlist. Very bizzare and doesn't quite make sense.
Anyhow, again I don't understand why:
A. I was given no notification
B. I was still allowed to build this
Something needs to be fixed here....
Lost Tie
VoU..
I re-read your other quote about checking the wonder screen. Now this seems to be a terrible implementation for a GUI. Wasn't the whole point of the message indicator supposed to inform us if the wonder has been completed yet or not?
Why are we supposed to keep checking two screens deep like a maniac each turn just to watch out for this? Come to think of it, when we used to be notified of the wonders being completed in far off lands, why were we still able to work on it for another round? Bug? Or some other reason.
Anyhow, here is a save from one of my deity games. Please note the following.
* Never did I receive any message from the system that the Pyramids have been completed anywhere. This is standard procure (unless they changed it) to inform us of this event.
* We have enough regular hammers to complete the Pyramids by the end of the turn.
* Just incase there is any shred of evidence to this over-flow determiner, we can still whip this (despite we really don't need to), just to be super duper safe.
----
No matter what we do this turn, and yes the pyramids are completed by us 100% by the end of this turn, we will simply find out NEXT turn that we lost to a tie.
But alas, when we do check the wonder screen, DESPITE NO NOTIFICATION WAS SENT TO US, there it is, secretly hiding along with ours on the list. BOTH of our wonders are listed on the top of the wonderlist. Very bizzare and doesn't quite make sense.
Anyhow, again I don't understand why:
A. I was given no notification
B. I was still allowed to build this
Something needs to be fixed here....
Lost Tie
obsolete, first let me just say I have enjoyed your walkthroughs very much, and learned many things from you. I am kind of a builder at heart, your wonderspamming at higher diff levels inspired me and I've had tons of fun with it.
As far as your tie on the wonder, I've often seen this happen in my games. If you look in your event log you will see that the mids in that save were built in 800BC. The message does not appear until the next turn, so the game does allow you to waste another turn building a wonder that is taken by an opponent. I'd like to look into it more and hear from some people exactly why this happens.
Since it says it was completed in 800bc I would assume you would need to go 1 turn prior to 800 to complete it yourself with a rush. So really, it is not a tie, it's that you didnt get the message that they beat you until later, allowing you to waste 1 or 2 turns before the conversion into gold?
As far as your tie on the wonder, I've often seen this happen in my games. If you look in your event log you will see that the mids in that save were built in 800BC. The message does not appear until the next turn, so the game does allow you to waste another turn building a wonder that is taken by an opponent. I'd like to look into it more and hear from some people exactly why this happens.
Since it says it was completed in 800bc I would assume you would need to go 1 turn prior to 800 to complete it yourself with a rush. So really, it is not a tie, it's that you didnt get the message that they beat you until later, allowing you to waste 1 or 2 turns before the conversion into gold?
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
What, you want me to defend the implementation? Sorry, I'm not going to volunteer for that one.
I notice that you completed Mathematics on the same turn that the Pyramids were finished, which makes me wonder if the splash screen is preventing the message from being shown. Somebody interested in exploring this further (which is to say, not me) might examine that section of the code.
My guess is that the wonder cash in code is supposed to be at the end of turn anyway (for some other reason that I don't immediately see), and the developers never considered that it should also be placed at the beginning of the turn. Hard to say. So much of the game performance is tied up in the graphics that logic optimizations are sort of haphazard (by which I mean absent).
I agree with you that the current implementation doesn't appear to offer any gameplay benefits.
Edit: I just realized that maybe you want to play that game out even tho you lost the Mids.. so put in spoiler tags some future info on that Indian Lost tie save you posted obso with a worldbuilder test on tied wonders.
Ok I played some more and the message for wonders built does not show up until the next turn.
Ok I played some more and the message for wonders built does not show up until the next turn.
Spoiler :
JBossch
King
Well done.
A couple questions:
Why did you have to give Justinian two techs to end a war earlier? Didn't you take one of his cities and bring Izzy in? Why wasn't he begging for peace? The answer may be related to my next question:
What is your power graph like in the early game? I noticed you using war chariots in like 1150 AD. I normally play on Aggressive AI so maybe this is not as much of a problem with default aggressiveness.
Why put Oxford in Madrid? I couldn't really see the whole city but with a +19 shrine I would normally think wall street, no?
Thanks and good win.
A couple questions:
Why did you have to give Justinian two techs to end a war earlier? Didn't you take one of his cities and bring Izzy in? Why wasn't he begging for peace? The answer may be related to my next question:
What is your power graph like in the early game? I noticed you using war chariots in like 1150 AD. I normally play on Aggressive AI so maybe this is not as much of a problem with default aggressiveness.
Why put Oxford in Madrid? I couldn't really see the whole city but with a +19 shrine I would normally think wall street, no?
Thanks and good win.
obsolete
Deity
JBossch, I'm not sure on why Justinian was so against peace. I really am not familiar with him so I can't say. Just I know he jumped on me, and then wouldn't give up for peace unless I gave him TWO major techs. I suppose, even with 2 against 1 he thought he was still stronger than me. Or maybe the AI doesn't even factor in allies of the human player? I noticed them before not making any sense. E.G. You can't bribe an AI to attack a stronger one, but if he vassaled a wimp, you can bribe him to attack the wimp, despite this is the exact same thing as bribing him to attack the stronger one O_o
Anyhow, If you look at all those cities of his I finally took, it would seem he probably had more cities than me and isabella perhaps put together, or was close there, and perhaps that is part to do with the equation.
I believe on Immortal each AI starts off with 3 settlers, 6 archers, and 1 worker. So he probably had quite a few cities up by that point.
I boxed in Isabella, so she really never got far at all. As evident at the point I declared war on her, she only had 5 cities total.
My power graph was probably weak as hell at the beginning of the war, it always is going to be in that spot. And those horse charriots were mostly due to emergency whipping.
And for the Oxford, I am experimenting with putting in my capital, or not. I simply can't put every national wonder in my capital so that's the problem. And the +19 shrine will also benefit through Oxford (assuming use of the slider). Though I have to admit a lot of times I'll put science beaker spending to 0 for long stretches of the game.
Anyhow, If you look at all those cities of his I finally took, it would seem he probably had more cities than me and isabella perhaps put together, or was close there, and perhaps that is part to do with the equation.
I believe on Immortal each AI starts off with 3 settlers, 6 archers, and 1 worker. So he probably had quite a few cities up by that point.
I boxed in Isabella, so she really never got far at all. As evident at the point I declared war on her, she only had 5 cities total.
My power graph was probably weak as hell at the beginning of the war, it always is going to be in that spot. And those horse charriots were mostly due to emergency whipping.
And for the Oxford, I am experimenting with putting in my capital, or not. I simply can't put every national wonder in my capital so that's the problem. And the +19 shrine will also benefit through Oxford (assuming use of the slider). Though I have to admit a lot of times I'll put science beaker spending to 0 for long stretches of the game.
To set some facts straight:
the Immortal AI s (BtS 3.13) starts with 1 worker, 3 archers and 1 scout (and the usual 1 settler), according to the XML file. Only on Deity it gets a free settler, and even then it's only one extra.
The shrine income will never work towards your research. Shrine income is cash, just like what you get from merchants and some super specialists, not raw commerce. When a city gets a large part of its income from a shrine, it may be a great candidate for Wall Street, but not for Oxford.
Thanks for the writeup, it sure is impressive how powerful wonders can be, and how it is possible to get a large amount even on Immortal.
the Immortal AI s (BtS 3.13) starts with 1 worker, 3 archers and 1 scout (and the usual 1 settler), according to the XML file. Only on Deity it gets a free settler, and even then it's only one extra.
The shrine income will never work towards your research. Shrine income is cash, just like what you get from merchants and some super specialists, not raw commerce. When a city gets a large part of its income from a shrine, it may be a great candidate for Wall Street, but not for Oxford.
Thanks for the writeup, it sure is impressive how powerful wonders can be, and how it is possible to get a large amount even on Immortal.
MyOtherName
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,526
I've noticed that the GUI tends to scroll through the event channel fairly slowly, and I've been half-way through a turn (or more) and 'new' events are still being reported. (but they're not really new)
Is it possible that the "wonder has been built" message was deep in the queue, and y'all just blitz through the turn before it appears? (I can't currently test the save)
Is it possible that the "wonder has been built" message was deep in the queue, and y'all just blitz through the turn before it appears? (I can't currently test the save)
MyOtherName, I know exactly what you mean about it scrolling slowly, this is not the case however. When testing it I made very sure that the event scrolling was completed. The event does Not list in the Event Log or the scrolling until the turn after the wonder was built. As I said I believe that it must be this way because of turn order, which is also probably why the human player will win a Tie with the AI. Obso's tie was not actually a tie, the AI completed it the turn prior (in that one example save). It's not too hard to test with worldbuilder, but I would sure love if someone with more knowledge of the code to chime in 
obsolete
Deity
It is possible I played too much deity in the past and am too used to such lopsidedness. However, even on Immortal it seemed damn positive this was the case, when doing a very early imp rush. No mater how fast you are there always seems to be at least 3 cities awaiting with at least 2 archers apiece.
Anyhow, I just did a quick test in worldbuilder, seems the 3 archers 1 setter is right, but my civs were showing 2 scouts not just one (at least in the latest patch). I suppose it could be I just happened to randomly draw AI's that came with an extra scout. Does Peter start off with an extra scout?
--
As for the Shrine income not counting towards research, maybe you got something there too.
Assuming if a city only has 2 commerce. Now I know that if you have a library and university, thats +25% + 25%.
Lets say you have your slider up to 100%
You now get 100% x 2 commerce = 2 beakers
(25% +25%) x commerce = 1 breaker
2 + 1 = 3 so we get 3 beakers total.
Now when I put in Oxford, it changes to..
(25% + 25% + 100%) x commerce = 3 breakers
2 + 3 = 5 Beakers.
The question is, how do shrines factor in? I suppose because they are GOLD and not Commerce there could be differences and you may be right. I normally don't build shrines so haven't paid too close to numbers. But if what you say is true, then I really hate shrines even more now!
There used to be a lot of post-game (walkthroughs) around the forums and I remember people constantly wanting to put Oxford in their shrine cities. I suppose either they also over-looked the commerce vs gold output of the city, or there have been changes since then. Probably the former as that would be a pretty big change?
Anyhow, that's what I get for reading silly prince games, and now I'm guilty of doing the same crime.
obsolete
Deity
I remember when this was a BIG problem in Vanilla. It was not too uncommon to get messages after 3 turns, even 5 turns have gone by! I even made posts complaining about that.
That was very annoying but by the time we got into Warlords the event threading was supposed to have been fixed up quite a bit.
obsolete
Deity
obsolete
Deity
Special Features::
"No peace unless you pay me off BIG..."
Just another day of stealing techs... Erm, I mean sabotaging.
And this is how may times I often had to try...
This trade is such a scam...
We are a go, at 100%...
Score Graph.
"No peace unless you pay me off BIG..."
Spoiler :
Just another day of stealing techs... Erm, I mean sabotaging.
Spoiler :
And this is how may times I often had to try...
Spoiler :
This trade is such a scam...
Spoiler :
We are a go, at 100%...
Spoiler :
Score Graph.
Spoiler :
About the scouts you're mentioning...I suppose the XML data is what the AI gets *in addition* to the normal stuff.
All AIs start with Hunting anyway on Immortal, so they'll get one scout just like the human when he starts with hunting, and a settler of course. Add to that the worker, 3 archers and extra scout from difficulty, and you get what you've been observing.
About the shrine, don't forget that you can still multiply its income with market/grocer/bank/wall street! If you get all of these in place, that's 3x as much as the basic income, and independent of the slider, no need for science multipliers too!
Later, you can found corps in that city as well (if you want to found any), and you will have lots of guaranteed money, no matter your science/culture/espionage slider setting!
All AIs start with Hunting anyway on Immortal, so they'll get one scout just like the human when he starts with hunting, and a settler of course. Add to that the worker, 3 archers and extra scout from difficulty, and you get what you've been observing.
About the shrine, don't forget that you can still multiply its income with market/grocer/bank/wall street! If you get all of these in place, that's 3x as much as the basic income, and independent of the slider, no need for science multipliers too!
Later, you can found corps in that city as well (if you want to found any), and you will have lots of guaranteed money, no matter your science/culture/espionage slider setting!
Obsolete,
your SSE/WE kind of playing is indeed very strong. I myself am a Immortal level player too, only I play with AggAI turned on (and recently won my first vic yey!). I really wonder if this strategy can work with AggAI on, since you really seem to lack on your militairy early on (a single warrior in your capital!) and the AI just seems to jump right on you in such cases.
So my question is, will this strategy work for instance with AggAI on, on a huge fractal map, with 15 AI's?
Cheers
your SSE/WE kind of playing is indeed very strong. I myself am a Immortal level player too, only I play with AggAI turned on (and recently won my first vic yey!). I really wonder if this strategy can work with AggAI on, since you really seem to lack on your militairy early on (a single warrior in your capital!) and the AI just seems to jump right on you in such cases.
So my question is, will this strategy work for instance with AggAI on, on a huge fractal map, with 15 AI's?
Cheers
obsolete
Deity
Will it work on a huge fractal map? I haven't played HUGE maps before, but don't plan to as larger maps really slow down this comp, even with the improved graphics card. I can't say I'm experienced enough to say yes or no. But probably those who do answere it aren't experienced enough either.
As for my warrior in the capital, he often is there till the end of the space race. Well, actually the replacement. Most my early warriors seem to get pounced on by lions & other junk then dissapear off to the land of Valhalla. But such is the risk one must pay in order to scout for good resources early.
As for my warrior in the capital, he often is there till the end of the space race. Well, actually the replacement. Most my early warriors seem to get pounced on by lions & other junk then dissapear off to the land of Valhalla. But such is the risk one must pay in order to scout for good resources early.
obsolete
Deity
Adenum::
Some last thoughts to close this story. I originally found some stone down south from my capital, the problem was it was too far away to ever get the borders to pop, so I had to rush a settler down there. To make things easy, I dropped down right ontop of it, and had two rivers combine through a river-side tile to connect to my capital (though I had to road ONE tile).
Also having Isabella build the A. Palace turned out great. I was able to use the extra hammer bonuses, and it gave me a free city as well.
One big blunder early was I swapped to pacifism, yet was in the middle of a war with 2 big stacks. I sort of didn’t realize how big my stacks were, and while I knew I was paying extra maintenance in that civic, it wasn’t until I hit revolution that I really thought (oh boy I shouldn’t have done this). Oh well, lesson learned, always check your F2 screen before you do anything. This one ran me into bankruptcy pretty quick.
Also, not once did I lightbulb. And while some critics may say it’s a crazy gamble cause if you lose the liberalism race it’s over, this game proves other wise. Losing a liberalism race doesn’t mean defeat. In a way I’m glad that happened, because now another “myth” can be disproven.
Also, I didn’t build cottages EXCEPT for the city that was given to me, as it already had one IIRC and it was all grassland with no river so the only thing I could put there was a cottage, my hands were tied. At least it paid for some maintenance of my cavalry later on.
It’s been a while since I’ve done major cavalry battles, but it sure feels good. When my capital wasn’t taking wonders I was making cav with Strength I & II with Pinch despite not running any promotion civics. I have no problems throwing tons of these at stacks of riflemen, infantry, and even marines. Of course, it helps to have air-ships soften up those units before hand. These new ships really are one of my favourite units now, and very good for many different occasions, such as scouting.
Anyhow, this probably is my last walkthrough for 2007. I’m going to get back to other things but will probably keep an eye on the forums for the rest of December (or at least try). Hopefully some others can do some Immortal game WTs (or deity) because we definitely are lacking them.
Some last thoughts to close this story. I originally found some stone down south from my capital, the problem was it was too far away to ever get the borders to pop, so I had to rush a settler down there. To make things easy, I dropped down right ontop of it, and had two rivers combine through a river-side tile to connect to my capital (though I had to road ONE tile).
Also having Isabella build the A. Palace turned out great. I was able to use the extra hammer bonuses, and it gave me a free city as well.
One big blunder early was I swapped to pacifism, yet was in the middle of a war with 2 big stacks. I sort of didn’t realize how big my stacks were, and while I knew I was paying extra maintenance in that civic, it wasn’t until I hit revolution that I really thought (oh boy I shouldn’t have done this). Oh well, lesson learned, always check your F2 screen before you do anything. This one ran me into bankruptcy pretty quick.
Also, not once did I lightbulb. And while some critics may say it’s a crazy gamble cause if you lose the liberalism race it’s over, this game proves other wise. Losing a liberalism race doesn’t mean defeat. In a way I’m glad that happened, because now another “myth” can be disproven.
Also, I didn’t build cottages EXCEPT for the city that was given to me, as it already had one IIRC and it was all grassland with no river so the only thing I could put there was a cottage, my hands were tied. At least it paid for some maintenance of my cavalry later on.
It’s been a while since I’ve done major cavalry battles, but it sure feels good. When my capital wasn’t taking wonders I was making cav with Strength I & II with Pinch despite not running any promotion civics. I have no problems throwing tons of these at stacks of riflemen, infantry, and even marines. Of course, it helps to have air-ships soften up those units before hand. These new ships really are one of my favourite units now, and very good for many different occasions, such as scouting.
Anyhow, this probably is my last walkthrough for 2007. I’m going to get back to other things but will probably keep an eye on the forums for the rest of December (or at least try). Hopefully some others can do some Immortal game WTs (or deity) because we definitely are lacking them.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
OBSOLETE, as I have said before I am a fan of your walkthrough's and use your strat when the situation arises. But I would certainly like to see how you would utilize a leader WITHOUT industrious or philosophical, the two strongest for your strategy. Also a coast start would ne nice as I would say more than half of random starts are on a coast. Dropping to difficulty to emperor or Monarchy would be fine by me.
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