ST5 - The Wall Must Fall

Wouldn't it be possible to put the squeeze on the mongols. They have a lot of outdated troops milling about, making excellent leaderfishing expeditions possible. Also, would make good territory to place a forbidden palace.

Grimjack
 
I am home early from work today and not feeling well. I can't get to the game tonight but don't want to hold everyone up.

If T-Hawk wants to jump in and play now I can get to a turn later in the week after my cold, aches and pains have subsided. If he can't play I will do my best to play before Thurs.

Sorry for the delay but I just don't feel up to playing this evening.

Hotrod
 
First things first - turn off the music, I'm watching baseball. :)

We'll definitely wait the turn until the three longbows are ready to attack Entremont.

Ivory for Greek Spices is on the table to renew; Alex kicks in some spare change.

We have an alliance with Greece against the Celts for 16 more turns. I'd like to keep our reputation intact, so we'll play that out and leave Mongolia alone for now.

Tweak a couple of build orders - more knights, less longbows (longbows aren't going to get anywhere in time to help now. I'd build some if we were going after Mongolia soon.) Teoti needs shields badly (stuck at +7 surplus food at size 12!) I swap it to a settler to have one around if we need.

==========

560 AD: We start the battle for Entremont. I'm not sure whether to attack with the 5-offense longbows, or the 4-offense knights that can retreat. Since the defender is only a pikeman, the longbows do have the advantage, so I'll use them. After two longbows lose, I switch to the knights instead. :)

Man, these pikemen are still pretty tough - there's four vets and two regulars in the city. Fortunately, our knights pull good luck on retreats, and we capture Entremont at the cost of only one knight after the two longbows.

st5-entremont.jpg


The city gets put on a starvation diet, of course. Thanks to Grimjack for the setup. :goodjob:


570 AD: Babylon's got Banking but we aren't buying it at monopoly to broker.


YAR.

st5-entremont2.jpg



580 AD: We recapture Entremont, but that was a terrible loss of eight units - including the settler that I was dumb enough to leave in the city. :aargh:


590 AD: That bastige Alex signs peace with the Celts. Well, we'll stay at war and see if we can pick up anything else good (like a Great Leader.)


600-620 AD: Nothing happens.


630 AD: The tattered remains of our force do manage to capture the city of Lugdunum, at the cost of one longbow. This city will have silks after a border expansion.


650 AD:

st5-650ad.jpg


I leave the units in Celticland unmoved for the next leader. Brennus is down to three cities; I think we may as well press on until he's eliminated and pray that we get a Great Leader for a FP here. We can rush longbows in the captured cities to replenish the troops enough for that (they have Sunny T's barracks.)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/st5-650ad.zip

Go ahead when you can, Hotrod. Griselda's on deck again. Falsfire, are you out there anywhere?
 
Ouch, that was one evil flip. Good thing I didn't try to pull of a fast one, as I do not think the eight knights I had during the first turn would have been enough to take out the six pikemen.
( Celts built longbows out of Entremont during my turns. )

Grimjack
 
Yeah, the AIs really do seem to prefer longbows over knights with this mod. I think knights are still better, though; the mobility lets them get to their targets much faster, and the retreating reduces losses more than the extra attack point on the longbows. Something to consider if Sirian's still monitoring the mod effects here.
 
Well I've arrived at my new place now, but am still living out of boxes and suitcases. The problem with a getting a really good new job is that you end up working really long hours to learn the company, product, and customers well enough to impress your new bosses and have little or no time to unpack :(

Well at least it is a long weekend thanks to Thanksgiving, so I can get some unpacking done and hopefully find my Civ3 CD-ROM!:rolleyes:

But I probably won't be able to play til Tuesday. My girlfriend is coming in for Thanksgiving on the weekend and I doubt I'll get a chance to play. I'll let you know if I find my Civ3 CD before the weekend, but otherwise I can return to playing after Monday.
 
Welcome back falsfire.

Celts also sprouted some Medievals at me from the other cities. I do not know if they were newly produced, but I suspect that. May be they have some knowledge of production waste ?!?

Like they would know not to build units taking longer than X turns to complete.

Grimjack

For Sirian, still think Longbows should cost 40 instead of 50. As it is now, I would almost always go with a medieval rather than Longbow if I lacked horses. There is also a BIG difference between a 14 spt city and a 17 spt during the early medieval ages.
 
Played and have a short report.

Only was able to capture 1 Celt city. Lost half dozen units trying to move on Richborough. 3 reg pikes managed to retreat or kill our advancing knights on 3 different occasions. New longbows were rushed and completly inffective. Only managed to kill 1 pike with the lone MDI in the area. New knights had arrived only to be defeated either on the pikes or they retreated only to be killed by a longbow attacking from the city. I underestimated the strength of the city and failed to properly stage for the attack and didn't learn as the turns progressed. :(.

On the diplo front we are lagging in tech by Metallurgy, Econ, Astronomy, PP and Music Theory. Did pull a 2fr for Chemistry and Banking. Bought Chemistry for 1070 from Greece and got Banking from the Mongols.

WW is way up 52% and climbing due to the loses at Richborough a size 4 city. Peace will make the Celts a OCC. They and china are way behind in tech.

Disappointing round of turns and sorry I wasted them with little to show for it.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/st5-750ad.zip
 
I do not think they are down to one city. I read it to mean we can get their remaining cities if we sign peace.
If we get a leader, we could set up FP down in Celt lands, and truly(sp?) have two cores. It is however highly uncertain we would get a leader, and then I suggest we build FP close to next front, Greece or Mongols.

Grimjack
 
Another turn where I feel like I'm being a bit too heavy-handed. Short version- we have peace with the Celts, and built the FP in Teoti-whatever. I thought about holding for comment, especially about the FP, but this was the time I had available to play, and I wanted to take advantage of it.

(0) 750 AD - I opened the save fully expecting to remain at war with the Celts. But, I hadn't quite realized how many losses we'd taken in the south. In that area, our entire offensive force consisted of 3 knights, 2 longbows, and 1 horse. Some of those were wounded, and all were spread out. Many cities have only one defender, such as a knight or even a horseman. I'm thinking we should quit while we're ahead. We have a few units up north that could move down, but we can move them during peacetime anyway, since it will take 6-8 turns for them to arrive.

Making peace would eliminate our chances for a great leader for the FP. But, to pop a leader we'd need elite victories, and that doesn't look promising at the moment.

But, it's late. We need a FP. Teoti-whatever can build it in 10 turns. I chose that over Tlaxcala because it's a little more centrally located, so it can benefit us if we move towards Greece or Mongolia. If we do get a leader, we can use it for a palace. I hope that choice is OK with you all.

So, I sign peace with the Celts for Gergovia and 2 gold.

I rush a temple in Agedincum, and a pike in Gergovia. I also start moving the northern units down.

I do some MM back home, mostly trying to gain shields in size 12 cities. I swap to granaries in newly-growing cities, and decide to build units instead of banks at our core (we do need banks, but I figure we should be building units somewhere, and I swapped some cities off units for granaries)

Fear the heavy hand of Gris! :hammer: :mischief: :lol:

(1) 760 AD - Move our exposed units into southern cities for flip suppression. We no longer have a good city for our lone scientist, and all the AI have printing press, except China and maybe the Celts. I note that China will pay less for education than for chemistry. So, I trade ed to China for printing press, 2 gpt, and some change.

BT - The Greeks now want 29 gpt for incense. I decide to let the deal expire, since we need gold more than happiness. BTW, our rep is most definitely shot, which could make catching up on tech interesting.

(2) 770 AD - Rush temple in Gergovia

BT - Greece declares war on Babylon. Calix granary - musket. Gergovia temple - harbor. Greeks complete Magellan's, Mongols to Smith's.

(3) 780 AD - Misc. movement southwards

BT - Texcoco musket. Tlacopan harbor - knight.

(4) 790 AD

BT - Babs demand wines. I consider refusing, since they're having enough trouble with the Greeks, but we're still *very* short in the south, so I cave. It's not like anyone has enough gpt right now to pay us for them.

Tenoch musket. Tzin aqueduct - granary.

(5) 800 AD - We now have just over 1000 gold. We could buy astronomy for 980, but, with bad credit, we wouldn't be able to make a possible two-fer for physics and something else happen. I decide to hold off on trades and build up cash for our next leader.

Trading our way up will be hard, and normally pointy-stick research would be a no-brainer from this position. But, all we have to look forward to in the near future is knights vs. rifles. Still, going for metallurgy and then mil tradition might be a good bet.

I realize I forgot starvation diets in our newly captured cities. Since they're all corrupt with no hope for a FP, I figure we have time to do it right now. So, starvation diets ordered.

BT - Tlaxcala granary - knight

(6) 810 AD - The roads are horribly clogged, and the Greeks are being pesky about wanting a lot of gold for a ROP. I'm glad I wasn't counting on these reinforcements arriving, because they're caught in traffic.

(7) 820 AD

BT - Atz aqueduct - granary. Tex musket. Palace expands.

(8) 830 AD

BT - Babs have cavs. Tlatel bank - knight. Xo aqueduct - granary.

(9) 840 AD - Units start to arrive in south.

BT - China asks us to move. I agree, in hopes of getting some gold for RoP next turn. Tenoch musket - knight (we like cavs, right?). Teoti FP completes! Palace expands again.

(10) Sign ROP with China, but we can't get any gold from them.

Mother, did it need to be so high?
 
Good progress. I actually had some captured workers building extra roads through Mongolian territory as was possible. Dang gridlock. :)

Remember the trick that you can pay per-turn for tech in a renegotiated peace treaty regardless of your reputation. I think the unofficial RBCiv position was that that's okay, as long as you fully observe the promised peace treaty. It lets you get around a reputation betrayal in a way that is limited, not subject to further abuse, and does impose a constraint.

Anyway, we've got the upper hand; we aren't going to lose from this position. We can win any way we want (except diplomatic, heh), so may as well see what we can do with some cavalry soon. :) :hammer:
 
So that's what those workers were doing! If I'd have realized that, I'd have let them stay and build more roads. I sent some of our core workers south in a stack to work the new lands, so when I saw some extra workers down there, I figured they were part of my stack that had been stuck in traffic and taken a wrong turn.

While we could choose several different ways to win, my vote goes for :hammer: ! In the spirit of the mod, it would be fun to :hammer: as much as possible before tanks. It might mean more losses, but, at least we're giving the AI a fighting chance, right? :crazyeye:

-Griselda
 
Falsfire, have you found your discs yet, or should I grab it tonight instead ?

Grimjack
 
That the AI prefers longbows to knights now would be out of my control. That could weaken them by leaving them less cavs come upgrade time. We'd probably have to run an AW game to really see. Getting too close to Conquests release to worry about that now, though. However, if longbows were undone, the rest of the military tweaks would lose balance, too, as longbow vs musket would then be too ineffective, and the muskets would be too strong.


- Sirian
 
will play (and hopefully post) tomorrow night. still slogging through the "i'm sure it's slow for everyone since i have a p4 and turns take 10 mins for me" (that's ten minutes between pressing "End Turn" til I get control again on the following turn) final era of my epic36 game, too :(
 
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