ST5 - The Wall Must Fall

[Grimjack]

ST5 Conquer the wall...

2150BC (0) City planning.It is tempting to go for the far horse. Excellent city were you can chose between coast and non coast, but still have two dyes, horses and a cow.
It will take a great while before that city would be productive though, so barring all jungle, it may be the fourth city instead of third.
Scout some jungle with the Teoti Jag, and discover a source of gems in the jungle. So, there are three must haves in the immediate frontline.
Land is very very sparse as well. Much as I would want Gems, that is the last spot to fill, since it is all jungle and/or seawater.
Horse site in the far east looks more and more tempting, as grabbing that would keep mongols from horses. Then the wisdom of standing between a mongol and his horse could of course be debated...

IBT: Tenochtitlan Settler->Jag

2110 Send jag with settler, hunting for horse-site. SCout some more. Whip temple in Teoti. Will be culture war with two Iro cities.

IBT: Teoti Temple->Jag, Iros Start to build Oracle, as do Babs

2070 Western scout jag disperse a barb camp, and we are 25 gold richer.
A bit indecisive about Celts 26 gold. Their gold has not increased, and I would not like them to go buy from someone other than us. Will make the trade. 26 gold now is probably better than perhaps 35 in three turns.
IBT: Nada

2030 MM Teno for both growth and extra shields.
Mongols are up Horseback, Greeks are up Horse and Writing, as is Iros.

IBT: Teno Jag->Jag ( Need someone that can hunt barbs, as we got a barb camp to our north, and I do not want AI forces waltzing around in our hinterlands.

1990 Woops, our eastern scout is almost killed as he tries his luck against a barb camp. Luckily he retreats. Greeks will get that camp now.
3 gpt and 86 gold will not buy Writing.

1950 Flee with our barb hunters after they get ebaten in jungle warfare. Perhaps train them a bit before letting them lose in the jungle.....

IBT: Teno Jag->Settler, Teotis culture expands.

1910: Found Tlatelolco near the horses, and set it on worker.
MOve our southernmost jag close to another barb fleeing one.

4gpt and 70 gold will get us Writing from Babs.
Writing gets us 10 gold, Horseback and Contact with Chinese from Celts
Get 15 gold from Celts for contact with Japanese.
Get 13 gold from China for Contact with Japanese.

IBT: Our wounded jag survives.

1870: Movement. MM cities. All two that are MMable.

1830: More movement. Hunting for barbs in our north.
IBT: Teoti Jag->Worker. Really strapped for workers. If we want a jag war, then veto worker for a barracks.

1790 We may have to change conventional wisdom about when barbs fortify. Seems like they rather fortify than stand exposed on plain land.
Everyone except China is at tech parity. China is three techs behind. ( Iron, Alphabet and Writing. )

1750 Raise lux tax to 30 to support size 5 Teno. Teno will have settler in one if not vetoed. Suggest to fill in with the iron/river site between mainland and horsetown.
We have a fortified Jag in the extreme south, resting. Wake him in case you want to explore before he has healed himself.

Suggested city sites on colored dots. North as lesser priority.

Here there be a save

 

[Sirian]

Are you saying it's not an accident that our neighbors just happen to have ancient age UU's as well?

I didn't produce the map in the editor, if that's what you're asking. You got the first one the game churned out. And no, they don't all have ancient UU's. Some have early middle ages UU's to ripen in the Great Wall combat era.

Evil, man, I tell you!

Who, me? How can you say such a thing?


- Sirian

 

[gormdragan]

@Sirian

You mentioned in "Heart and Seoul"

1)
"4000BC: River start with one food bonus, but the start tile is not on the coast. For a Pelago map, that is not good. I opt to move one tile SE. The worker is moved onto the game."

2)
"They are having their golden age in Democracy? Ha! The laugh is on them! Why, everybody knows that's the worst government to be sitting in for your golden age! (Didn't you get the memo??)"

Can you explain?

Sorry guys...this is off topic

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got and will try to start tonight. Didn't expect to see the fast turn around but it is a good thing

 

[hotrod0823]

1750 Bc (0): No Changes

1725 BC (1): The settler completes and start a jag. Move the Western jag and it reveals a japanese Settler pair sending the settler to the Eastern Iron on the river. Move the Capital jag to the mountain and see a iroquios settler pair about to poach our spot . Not sure we will get that location.

1700 BC (2): Move some jags

1675 BC (3): Move settler into position near the river and iron, the iroquios continued north.

1650 BC (4): Settle Texoco on the river. start a worker. Worker completed in Teoti, started a barracks. Capital builds jag starts a settler. Frag a hut in the south. Barb approach form the north and kill our jag and more push towards our eastern city.

1625 BC (5): Some minor MM.

1600 BC (6): Hiawatha demands 23 of our 87 gold I am tempted to tell him to take a leap but I cave. Tlat-- builds a worker starts a temple.

1575 BC (7): See our first barb Galley. No one has MM but Hammi has a monopoly on math. Surprised that with a galley maps aren't known yet.

1550 BC (8): have to move jag out of capital to protect the worker. Up lux to 30%.

1525 BC (9): Tenoch builds a settler heading north with a now vet escort. Start a jag. Frag a camp in SE and promote to elite. No tech changes still down math to hammi.

1500 BC (10): I hate when last turn there is nothing for trade and then things explode. All have Map Making and Math except China and Mongols. Sell China writing on the cheap 25 gold, we can buy either but there are no trades possibilities. I do try to get Maps however. Trade Current WM to Babylon for TM and 16 gold. WM to Japan for TM and 14 gold. WM to Greece for TM and 11 gold. WM to Brennus for TM and only 5 gold. We now have pretty good map and 183 gold, making 6gpt with 20% lux.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads5/ST5_1500BC.zip

 

[Bam-Bam]

lurker's comment:

Folks--you should be thankful that Sirian did NOT produce the map in the editor--we all now what *ahem* fun things come out of those maps. I would have been surprised if Sirian did NOT give you ancient and early middle age UU opponents for this game--we would have then had to accuse him of going soft in his middle age...

@gormdragon--

The second quote is a heavy bit of Sirian sarcasm--democracy is an ideal gov't to have the golden age.

The first refers is a general preference to put your (likely) most productive city on the coast so that it can produce naval units and wonders that are related to the sea (colossus, lighthouse, magellans). Since the start was just one tile from the coast, it was logical to make a one-turn sacrifice to gain significant additional build options for the capital.

 

[T-hawk]

OK, looking good so far.

NewDestroyer << UP NOW
T-hawk << On Deck

 

[NewDestroyer]

skip me, very occupied w/ skool

 

[T-hawk]

I'd expected that might happen to someone eventually, which is why I went with 6 players, but to sign up on Saturday and have to be skipped by Tuesday?

Anyways, I got it, but don't think I'll manage to play tonight before falling asleep. Tomorrow for sure.

 

[T-hawk]

Inherited turn:

Teoti swaps to granary - we need a second city capable of putting out some workers. Tenoch swaps to a barracks instead of the jaguar - better to make veteran jags, especially for later upgrading.
Little happened. I sent the jags that were around Teoti back north to clear out the barbs.

Three-ferred Code of Laws for Mathematics and Map Making and got Brennus's world map and some change.

Tlatelolco whipped its temple upon reaching size 2. Greece demands 23 gold, paid.

Tlaxcala is in that spot to make usable all the land tiles (including the iron), although it'll be a half-city until rails. The current settler should build right where he is, and then one more city should go on the far north horses.

Teoti is set up to finish the granary right before growing, then build (whip?) a barracks and crank workers and jags. From here, it's just build jaguars and accumulate cash; when we've got 20 vet jags, hook up iron and upgrade them, and the Wall should Fall.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/st5-1250bc.zip

Griselda << Up Now
falsfire << On Deck

 

[Speaker]

Wouldn't it be perfect if Oil Springs actually was sitting next to Oil?

 

[Griselda]

It seems I am still cursed to rule in interesting times when I play ST games. This was certainly an interesting one. [punch]

(0) 1250 BC - My main priorities look like they'll be settling the north and possible poaching that gems site if I can. Oh, and building jags.

I raise lux to 40% to keep Tenoch from rioting.

BT - Iro swap to Pyramids.

(1) 1225 BC - Calixtahuaca founded on the ivory, and starts a temple. Tenoch can't grow until after an aqueduct, so the worker heads northwards.

BT - Tenoch settler - jag

(2) 1200 BC - Settler heads north towards horses. Start forest chop by Tenoch that could bring LoI north. Lux to 30%.

BT - Teoti granary - rax (due in 4, so no point in whipping)

(3) 1175 BC - It's quiet. Too quiet.

BT - Mongol archers come into sight. Tenoch jag - settler (figuring I could build a settler for gem poaching, and finish just in time to put the forest chop shields to a temple).

(4) 1150 BC - Mongols aren't in our territory yet, but there's not many other places they could be going. I start moving our jags southwards. I also move the jag in Tenoch south to Teoti.

BT - More Mongols! There's 5 archers now in the Teoti/Texcoco area, and they are in our borders now.

(5) 1125 BC - Texcoco worker sent towards our backlands for now. Tenoch swapped to spear. Looking back, a jag might have saved us, but I didn't want to risk our capitol.

(6) 1100 BC - Six archers now.

BT - Mongols move to Teoti. Japan demands some gold, and we cave.

Tenoch spear - archer. Teoti rax - jag.

(7) 1075 BC - OK, three archers are now in range to attack Teoti this turn. They're clearly going to attack, so I demand they leave so we can at least get a hit in first.

We have two jags in Teoti.

I attack with an elite jag and win (I'd have delayed the golden age, but we don't exactly have a plethora of units to choose from). I'd attacked the stack of two, so I'd end up back in the city.

I had sent a second jag to Texcoco when I wasn't sure what the Mongols were targeting. That jag can attack one of the archers, so that Teoti can't be taken this turn, but that would use all its movement and leave it exposed. I figure that's worth it, since diverting the attack from Teoti might be good anyway. We kill a second archer, 2 hp's left on our jag.

In our golden age, Tenoch can build jags in 1.

BT - Teoti attacked, and we lose one jag. Only our wounded elite is left in there.

Our exposed jag is attacked also. He wins one, and loses one.

Polytheism is in, start monarchy (Do we actually want republic, or what?)

Tenoch jag - jag

Iro complete the Pyramids.

(8) 1050 BC - Three Mongol archers are in range of Teoti this turn. Its defense, as I mentioned, is now a 2-hp jag.

Available units - the new jag from Tenochtitlan, and a jag that's been brought down from the north. Neither can get into Teoti this turn, although one could if it went through the Mongol archer 1N of the city.

1st jag attacks that archer N of Teoti, loses.
2nd jag attacks the same archer, wins, and moves into Teoti.

There's now two wounded defenders (3/4 and 2/5), and two non-vet attackers. Of course, archers vs. jags isn't a pretty sight.

I pull the spear from Tenoch, leaving it undefended. If Teoti holds this turn, the spear can get there by next turn.

Babs and Greece have polytheism.

I can still get a two-fer, though. Polytheism to Iro for philosophy and 73 gold.

BT - Celts demand philosophy. Cave, situation already ugly enough.

Teoti attacked twice, and loses twice. It's now a Mongol city.

Tenoch jag- jag.

Tex rax - jag

Tlaxcala harbor - rax.

(9) Build Xochicalo - jag.

Spear back towards Tenoch.

Establish embassy with Celts, possible alliance? Entremont guarded by 2 reg spears. It has a granary, and temple due in 2. They have horses, their iron isn't hooked up yet.

We couldn't afford an alliance anyway.

BT - Teno jag - jag
Tlatelolco rax - walls.

I haven't seen any more Mongol units.

-Tenoch chop due in 2.
- Tex might want to build or whip a spear?
- Calix could be whipped next turn.

Interesting times, indeed.

Sorry if this sounds rushed; it's either post now or not for hours.

-Griselda

SAVE US!

 

[falsfire]

got it. hmmm...let's see if we can get out of this...

 

[falsfire]

1000 BC [0] - Grim situation, not alot of military. Five jags and one spear. Only two vets available in Teno, they could get to Teoti this turn, but I think I'll wait til next turn when we have a third available. I do make one pre-emptive move this turn, I move the spear one tile out of Teno, so if I can retake Teoti next turn, the spear will be able to reach it to garrison.

IT - Frickin Mongols whipped Teoti, must be another unit guarding it now. I will wait til next turn when I have one more jag to attack with.

975 BC [1] - Teno Jag->Jag.

IT - Two archers move toward Texcoco.

950 BC [2] - Teno Jag->Jag. I hate to do this, but I whip a spear to defend in Texcoco. It'll be built next turn and can fortify just before the attack.

Attack on Teoti:
Vet jag vs. 4/4 archer: Knock 2hp off archer, dies
Vet jag vs. 4/4 archer: Does NO damage, dies
Vet jag vs. 4/4 archer: retreats doing NO DAMAGE!!! I hate the frickin' RNG!!!
Vet jag vs. 4/4 archer: Redlines archer, promotes to 2/5, dies. Now they have a 2/5 and a 2/5 archer in there, and we're all outta attackers. Vet spear moves in to cover our 1/4 jag.

IT - vet archer attacks our spear, does no damage and dies. Chinese begin the Colossus.

925 BC [3] - Texcoco spear->Jag. Teno Jag->Jag. Wounded jag retreats to Teno to heal. Spear guardian retreats back into our territory. We know the rax survived the takeover of Teoti, as the Mongol 2/5 archers are fully healed now. We will have two elites to contend with, that is, IF we can retake the town. Next time I will try using 7+ jags. Stupid PrNG.

900 BC [4] - Teno Jag->Jag. It takes two jags (0 lost), but we kill a reg Mongol archer in the Jungle near Teno. Continue to regroup our forces in Teno for the assault on Teoti.

IT - Reg Mongol archer attacks Texcoco across the river, our vet spear defends losing only 2hp, no promotion.

875 BC [5] - Teno Jag->Jag. Calix Temple->Jag. We get a double palace improvement. Celts start the GrWall!!! Mongols will talk now, but they want Polytheism AND 170g for peace! No frickin way! I could trade the Celts 3gpt, 177g, Polytheism for Construction...hmmm...they'll definately HAVE Polytheism by next turn...what the heck, and I can still afford peace with the Mongols if things get desperate, I could throw them a bone of Poly & Construction now...if I have to. We can trade resources with the Japanese, but they have nothing to offer for our wines. I check, and we can get peace with the Mongols for Construction and 16g, if we so desire. I hold off for now...we have four jags, I want to get to seven (three more turns) then attack Teoti, THEN sue for peace...Two spears are menacing Tlatelolco, which has only a reg Jag (but behind walls). Let's hope they just pillage, BUT, just in case, I whip a spearman for extra defense, and if Mongolia does get it, let 'em have it with bad whip memory.

IT - Babylon builds the Colossus. The Mongol spears move past Tlatelolco, to pillage our horses I bet. Let 'em, we'll hook 'em back up and we don't need 'em yet.

850 BC [6] - Tlatelolco spear->Jag. Tlaxcala Rax->Jag.

825 BC [7] - Teno Jag->Jag. Okay, we have six vets and one regular jag for the attack now.

3/3 Jag vs. 5/5 archer: takes off 2hp, retreats.
4/4 Jag vs. 5/5 archer: takes off 2hp, retreats.
4/4 Jag vs. 3/5 archer: takes off 1hp, retreats.
4/4 Jag vs. 3/5 archer: takes off 1hp, retreats.
Grrr...thats 4hp left, and we have 3 attackers...
4/4 Jag vs. 2/5 archer: SLAYS him, losing 1hp. 2hp of damage to go...
4/4 Jag vs. 2/5 archer: SLAYS him, losing 1hp, and the city is ours again!
Just for posterity sake, our elite jag trapped down south attacks the 3/3 spear in Hovd:
5/5 jag vs. 3/3 spear: does 1dmg, retreats. Pooey.

I call up Temujin, and we get peace, his WM, and 32g for us chipping in Construction. Go ahead, you prick. Build the great wall! See if it helps you.

IT: We witness a Greek horse dying in the assault on the new Iro capitol of Grand River. Have you ever seen the greeks this aggressive before? They're getting a little scary...

800 BC [8] - Texcoco Jag->Jag. We need aLOT of these little guys to upgrade to swords when somebody builds the GrWall, right?

775 BC [9] - Teno spear->Jag. Iro's have lost Grand River, their last remaining city is Oil Springs up in the north. Alex is sure hammering him hard...he may eliminate him before 10AD!!

750 BC [10] - Teno Jag->Jag. Tlax Jag->Jag. Mongols start the GrWall.

Umm...guys...

Please tell me Alex is just passing thru on his way to Hiawatha's remote northern capitol, and please tell me those Mongols aren't getting frisky again ALREADY!

We're in rough shape. REALLY hurting for workers, and needing a fair military to hold off all these bloodthirsty AIs. The GrWall will be springing up any time now, I fully expect us to be on our crusade before my turn next comes around.

The save

 

[T-hawk]

Wow. Well, looks like that idea of getting us in more wars sooner with these map settings certainly worked. Didn't even need the variant rule, but we'll stick to it anyway.

Build jags like mad, but be ready to hook up iron and start upgrading if we get a good chance to do so...

Grimjack << Up Now
hotrod << On Deck

 

[Grimjack]

Got it.
Looks like interesting times

Grimjack

 

[Sirian]

So... this means you find the map suitable after all?


- Sirian

 

[Grimjack]

ST5, 750BC,
SitRep: We have peace, but there are Greek horses in our country.
A whole bunch of Mongol archers are camping our borders as well.

Spend 65 gold building an embassy in Athens. ( Want to see if they are at war with someone. )
They have horses roaded up, but no iron. 3 luxes. Granary in capital, and they are running 90% science.
City is awesome, producing 13 spt, building horseman. ( Size 7 )
As one might have guessed, greeks are at war with Iros, and are heading for iros last city.
I would very much like Oil Springs as our city, since I would guess there are oil or Salt there. No other reason for the AI to prioritize settling desert.
Need intelligence badly on the mongols as well, so I spend some more of our hard earned cash on a Mongol embassy.
Karakorum is size 1, and is building Great Wall. They have 54 turns left. Mongols have NO resources. WIll try to remember not to leave spare resources laying about, as he will likely demand them.
He has no improvements, but has managed to road two luxes.
Garrison three spears and a settler.
Notice Mongols are at war with Japs. This might be good, as we may be able to wrangle a deal with one or the other of them for a discount on a tech.

Switch Tenoch to settler. Want to poach a site badly. Need money.

IBT: Tlatel Jag->Worker
Babs start Great Lighthouse.

730BC Continue irrigating up to our northern parts. Move a bunch of jags towards Oil Springs.
Make 10 gold selling our maps. Am sorely tempted to sign a few RoPs just to make AIs more friendly.

IBT: Tlaxcala Jag->Jag Calix Jag->Barracks,

710Bc Move jags forwards.
Japs have monopoly on Currency. Get it for our treasury and two techs.
Sell it around a bit for 260 gold. 260 gold and 12 gpt is not sufficient for lifting Monarchy from Greeks.
Bah. Will hope he trades it around some.

IBT: Celts and Japan signs missive. Death to the Iros.
Tenoch Settler->Jag ( May veto myself for a market.)
Texcoco Jag->Jag

690 Babs have Monotheism, Greeks still hold onto their monopoly on Monarchy. Suspect Babs will lower cost when they use MOno for buying it. ( They will do that right ? )
Sigh, press an 8 instead of nine, and will lose a worker turn irrigating, or road a desert that didn't need roading..
Start to retreat our elite jag by Hovd.

IBT: Tenoch Jag->Jag, Tlax Jag->Jag,

670BC Cannot get Monarchy from Greeks for Currency,Construction and 12 gpt and 280 gold and alliance against Iros. sigh
Get 22 gold from Celts to declare instead.
OUr six Jags are sufficient for capturing OilSprings together with a ship and a worker.
It is however autorazed. Thought you got culture from capitol. Good thing I have a settler heading to this part of the land.
I predict next target will be Japs, as I would not want them to see Chivalry. Move forces accordingly.

IBT: Tenoch Jag->Jag, Teoti Temple->Jag, Greeks start Hanging Guardens.

650BC Tlatel get a taxman for a turn.
Best deal I can get on Monarchy is 'doubt'. Sigh.

IBT: Tenoch Jag->Jag, Tlatel Worker->Jag, Tlaxcala Jag->Jag,

630BC Notice Edo would be razed by the mongols 15 archers, so I veto jag in Tenoch for a settler.
We need to start using our troops real soon now, as we are starting to pay maintenance.

IBT: Edo survives first round of combat against four archers.
Teoti Jag->Jag, Texcoco Jag->Spear. Celts statr Great Library.

610BC Start to road iron. Found Tlacopan on some grass. Set it to barracks.
No longer in GA. Not much of a difference in income though.

IBT: Mongols inexplicably move their SoD away from Edo. So much for poaching Edo. WIll see about poaching desert instead.
We can start building our FP now as well.

590 BC Have our jags somewhat spread out along the front, as I do not know where Great Wall will be built.
Road along our empire will soon be built.

570BC Not much happening. Starting to regret buying currency from Japs, as we are locked in a peace deal.
Celts have monopoly on Lit, Babs on Mono, and Greeks on Monarchy. I do not feel confident enough to make any deals. Much rather use money for swordsmen and pointy stick against greeks.

IBT Tenoch Settler->Jag Tlaxcala Jag->Temple, Calix Barracks->Jag,
Entremont completes Great Wall and earn our enmity forever.

550BC Declare on Celts.
Buy worker from Greece for Currency and 66 gold. He gets Engineering as his free tech.
Could possibly trade currency to Mongols for Alliance against the Celts, but I leave that decision to HotRod.

I will also leave settler with movement. MOngols have once again moved up against Edo, and if they manage to raze that, it may be better to settle on Jungle gems by Edo than to settle in the desert to our far east.
Most of of troops are in Teoti, but we have some in our far east as well. In 7 turns, iron is roaded. Do not know if this can be speeded up by building a worker nearby.
Recommend starting Forbidden Palace in Texcoco or Teoti depending on where troops go. Try to make sure Celts do not buy in Mongols or Greeks.

Grimjack.

Save

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got it but will check later tonight for any insights before playing.

 

[falsfire]

First of all, 5 workers is not nearly enough. I know we have to gear up for war and everything, but 5 just is *not* enough. Our lands are disjointed and disconnected, we need to get our military roadnet up ASAP.

Also, if we're going to hook up iron and upgrade our jags, MDI's would be better than swords. MDI's is only one tech (feudalism) away, and don't forget to bring along plenty of pikes for escorts and to garrison the new lands.

See if we can get an alliance/RoP with the Mongols, (wait til we're geared up and ready to go before buying the RoP) so we can pass thru their lands quicker to reach the Celts once we are ready to go. Swords/MDI's move slowly, too slowly to go through Mongolia at 1 tile per turn. Plus, we'd never make it all the way, we'd keep getting booted out.

Another possibility is to crank out some galleys and send the MDI's down by boat. Not sure what would be quicker, though...an RoP thru Mongolia or to go by boat along the coast.

Once we have Entremont and/or any other Celtic lands in our fold, hopefully we will have a GrLeader for a F.P. down south there, otherwise those lands will be forever hopelessly corrupt. And if we opt to ally with the Mongols, be careful...if they conquer Entremont we will be forced to declare on them, and in doing so, breaking an alliance which is one of the WORST reputation-tarnisher's in the whole game. We'll never get to buy on gpt again and all civs will be Furious/Annoyed for the rest of the game.

With that said, we may just want to RoP with the Mongols but not ally with them. And please, don't send the whole military down south! We may need some left at home if the Mongols/Greeks get frisky with us!

Will probably take one or two other players' turns to gear up for war, at any rate, so I may just get to see the start of the actual offensive on my turn.

Just my $0.02 worth...