Stabilising the Democracy.......?

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Quistis

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As far as I've gathered from reading the posts on these forums, advancing rapidly to democracy is quite important. I see the MAJOR growth advantage the WE LOVE THE _ DAY's give.

However, I can never make the transition from Republic to Democracy without lots of unhappiness, and I always have to set Luxuries high (60-70%) to try and prevent this. Even after hundreds of years in Democracy, I have to keep my Luxuries high, which stunts growth quite horribly.

Another problem is I seem to get hardly any WE LOVE THE _ DAY's in Democracy no matter what I do....
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. This kinda defeats the point of moving to Democracy at all.......

All these problems have a serious impact on my technolgical ,as well as economical, advancment. What am I doing wrong?

Quistis

btw. I do have temples, collesiums etc in all my cities (I generally build temples first in a new city).
 
For smooth transition to democracy, you usually need temples and marketplaces in most cities, and have built 1 or 2 happiness wonders (i.e. Mike's Chapel, Hanging Garden). You also should build roads in some of your bigger cities since each road gives 2 trade arrows in a Democracy or Republic.

If you have temple, marketplace, mike's chapel, and roads on some squares, you should be able to run a democracy w/o problem. In my games 30% luxury is usually enough to keep everyone happy. Before you switch to democracy, make sure you move your units back to the cities or fortresses first.
 
That pretty much answers it but
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I think we'll move it over to strategy for little more traffic.
 
I usually build my empire using Monarchy early on, then switch to Republic to expand and fight wars. Fighting needs to be a bit more planned if doing it in a republic, but the income and science you get while kicking the comps butt is great. Once I get settled down I switch to Democracy.

By then I usually have marketplaces and banks in most of my cities and have no real need to have a large military force outside of my cities (although you can do this easily with Shakespear's theatre). From there, I can usually set Lux at around 20-30% and start to get some WLTLD (I call them We Love The Leader Days
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Make sure you have plenty of squares producing trade in the city, marketplaces and banks if possible, and temples and happiness wonders (Michelangelos Chapel is HUGE for this).

I have saved games from the GOTM I just played that can show where I changed Governments and what my cities were like when I did it, if that would help.
 
let's not forget trade routes!!! nice way to bump trade (helping out luxuries among other things) without having to improve the land so much.
 
Originally posted by Magnus:
let's not forget trade routes!!! nice way to bump trade (helping out luxuries among other things) without having to improve the land so much.

A point that cannot be emphasized enough. After all those Trade arrows are the basis of everything. In fact, I usually get by without temples by ensuring maximum available trade through trade routes and the Colossus. Together with Mike's Chapel and Hanging Gardens, trade routes alone are usually enough to boost city growth up to size 8 in Core cities of my civilization, even under a Republiic and without Marketplaces and Banks -- though with cities further away, the corruption factor of the Republic usually inhibits WLT_D growth.

 
A properly planned transition into Republic can be the best thing you can do early on. I often times will have coloseum, temples and Mike's Chapel. If I set my lux's @20 I will rarely have an unhappy citizen. @30 I have some WLTLDays in high trade cities and @40 WLTLDays are rampant.



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<FONT COLOR="red"><FONT size="3">Get your hands off me you damn dirty apes!!!!</FONT s></FONT c>
 
Originally posted by Magnus:
let's not forget trade routes!!! nice way to bump trade (helping out luxuries among other things) without having to improve the land so much.

You're right, I completely forgot trade routes. They are a big part of the mix and can easily double the effect of money, science, and luxuries.

I'm actually a new convert to them and barely used them for the first time in the GOTM. Wow, what a difference.
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Hi all,

Quistis noted he has 'temples, colloseums, etc' in his citys but can't get the WLTK to work.

The thread noted the importance of trade routes but so far didn't discuss the mechanics....

To get WLTK, need a) happy people => content people, and b)no unhappy people.

Temple, Cathedral, collosseum make unhappys content but don't help the happy part.

Marketplace, Bank, and Stock Exchange are the missing improvements in Quistis's game. Each increases luxuries as well as taxes by 50%. Very tough to maintain WLTK w/o at least Mktplace + Bank.

Cheers,
Agni
 
If you are going to move into a democracy you have to prepared not to fight any wars for quite some time. the best way to do this is to build the great wall or the UN, and then force peace treaties.
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I know all of the answers, It's the questions that confuse me.
 
Or simply keep them at bay... just defensive in case no one accepts your peace offers
 
Originally posted by Goatman:
If you are going to move into a democracy you have to prepared not to fight any wars for quite some time.

Not strictly true. Shakespeare's Theatre in a central, high-shield producing city can be a great way to amass an army. Simply move your troops through your "Warcity"--as I call it--and hit 'support from this city'. Even better as a port city.

But I'd guess that Quistis' problem is a lack of trade routes and marketplaces.
 
I've fought some of my biggest wars while in a Republic or Democracy. As long as you have plenty of cities to spread the units around in a Republic and have Shakespears and Women Suff in a Democracy, it doesn't cause that big of a deal.

You can even add some luxuries to offset the unhappies if needed.
 
I am so glad you posted this topic because I forgot the importance of trade rout's and normally fail with out them

And if you don't want to fight any wars thats when you turn to the lovely state of democ.
 
Originally posted by gia65man:
And if you don't want to fight any wars thats when you turn to the lovely state of democ.

Dude, you're not listening. It's perfectly fine to war in democracy. In fact, it's to be desired for several reasons: 1)The enemy can't subvert your units and cities, 2)Your 'non-committed' cities can still be in Love Days, 3)Your tech development can stay high, 4)You can continue to make oodles of cash to bribe with, etc etc.

My priorities are always to go Monarchy-Republic-Democracy, even bypassing Republic if possible. Only ever turn to Fundamentalism as a last resort. It's a crutch.

As for Communism, I've heard some good arguments as to its benefits, but I've still never really used it. Democracy is the only way to go in the long run.
 
I'm a recent and very enthusiastic convert to democracy. Before I ended my games with either republic or communism (using scientists in my cities in the latter), but democracy allows you to have your cake and eat it too, most of the time.

The only thing that you really have to worry about in latter-game democracy is the senate--which can be overridden 50% of the time if you have the UN (which I almost always do). Even if I'm on a roll offensively and the senate signs peace in the middle of it, there are ways to manipulate the AI into declaring war with you again sooner or later. I don't mind the brief regrouping period if it's forced on me anymore.... And I've found that if one enemy repeatedly sneak-attacks you, the senate eventually looks the other way more frequently when you wish to press on (which is very logical, and was a pleasant surprise to me).

After awhile, trust me, if you do it right you won't even notice much of a difference in conducting warfare in democracy or communism (I've rarely done fundy). By "doing it right" I mean:

--Concentrate on your economy. THAT is the main advantage of democracy, its tremendous help in growing your economy. Exploit it fully, and use all available improvements to enhance it further (and turn content citizens to happy ones!).

--Build the happy wonders--Mike's Chapel, Bach's, Suffrage, Cure for Cancer.... I usually don't even switch to democracy until I have built Mike's Chapel (and sometimes also the Statue, since I lose track of these "oedo" years and I hate going through anarchy out of a republic), and if my military is bigger than normal games I sometimes will wait until after Suffrage, when each away unit only generates ONE unhappy instead of two.

Anyway, the "happy" wonders balance out the equation: economic improvements, trade routes and luxuries generally make the content happy, while happy wonders make the unhappy content. To have WLTP days (or as some people aptly call them, "we love to make babies days"), you MUST do both of these things....

--Build Shake's in a city that will support your navy (as well as many of your offensive units). At first such a city was hard to judge for me (I'd be choosing the site in the midgame, before factories, terrain modifications and offshore platforms), but do a little math and you should figure out a potential very-high-production city. It should be on the coast if at all possible, since navies can never enter fortifications and thus, unless sitting in a port, will always cause discontent. After advanced flight et al, it can also support all those units that are "unhappy" anywhere--bombers, helicopters, missiles... as well as the carriers they will travel on! A city that will end up an 80 or higher production city is ideal for Shake's, but sometimes that's hard to judge in the midgame, though I've had pretty good luck at it....

--Build the SSC (Colossus, Cope's, Newton's). Again, democracy is about economy (and science is also about economy)--exploit it to the hilt! You don't NEED the SSC in democracy (your trade advantages are often enough to accelerate your science way past everyone without it), but a good SSC can do over 1000 beakers per turn in the late game WITH democracy--it sure is something to see!

Hell, with democracy I often find I can build EVERY mid and late game wonder if I want to--simply because I'll have the required techs LONG before anyone else does, and can build them at my leisure without worrying about a race....

Democracy used to kick my ass--now I can kick ass most effectively with it! Try it a few times.... Once you get the hang of it, you'll wonder why you ever did without it....
 
Put off going to democracy as long as possible monarchy is your best bet. Plus you cant be over ruled by the senate either which is good. When you do go to democracy make sure your city's have all the luxury buildings and sanatition buildings and good military protection as well and this should keep them happy and the luxury rate at about 20%(How do you afford above that?)
 
Monarchy SUCKS! I mean, it's good in the early game (when your only alternative is despotism), and I always try to get it quickly to reduce the resource penalties and corruption of despotism, BUT once you can move out of it, you definitely should, because otherwise the corruption is so damned high that your outer empire won't have ANY trade (and as we all should know, trade=science, and trade=happy (as versus content) citizens!), and it won't grow that well....

I change to republic as soon as I can, and put luxuries at 20%--happiness usually INCREASES then, since corruption is reduced and some of that extra revenue (along with the trade bonus on trade squares) can thus be channeled to luxuries. 20% should offset away unit unhappiness, as long as you distribute support of units fairly evenly to all cities (until you build Shakespeare's, then since you have a city that will NEVER have unhappy citizens, you can have that city support as many away units as you want). Try it--your science will go from one discovery every ten turns to one every four, EVEN if you have to reduce the science rate a little to provide luxuries). AND when your cities start celebrating because of increased trade (and luxuries), they gain one pop every turn, and as they grow, they produce even MORE trade (and thus more science).... Then it's a discovery every three turns, or every two....

Democracy is a little trickier transition from republic than republic was from monarchy, and like I said I usually wait until I have Mike's Chapel at least (if I don't already) before I move on to that. But now, since democracy ELIMINATES corruption, all THAT extra money goes into my treasury--and I find I can easily bump luxuries up to 30%, keep science at around 50%, and bump taxes down to 20% and still pay all the bills... and my science rate jumps to two turns per discovery, eventually even one.... In late game I'll even go as high as 40 or 50% luxury and let all my cities max. And once my cities have built everything they need to build (VERY late game), and I turn their 50 or more shields apiece to capitalization, I can set luxuries at 60 or 70 percent, ELIMINATE taxes, and STILL pay all the bills with the capitalization alone (of course, I usually have Adam Smith's to help me with that, too).... I do this mainly to increase my score (since happy citizens give you two points each). I also love seeing those solid lines of goblets representing the magnificent decadence of my citizens living in splendid luxury....

Not to mention, none of my units or cities can be bribed at ANY price....

As for the senate, well, they're just a minor irritation. If you want a war, just keep telling your enemy to withdraw his troops (even if he has none in your territory), or send a freight into the middle of his empire and have it sit there as a big, juicy, tempting target--sooner or later they'll bite, then you can PARTY! Oh, and if you have the UN, oftentimes they'll allow you to continue your "peacekeeping mission" and ravage the sh*t out of your rival, even in democracy <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/smile.gif" border=0>.

Read what I said above--others here have posted similar things before, and at first I was skeptical too. But pay attention to your economy, build the suggested wonders (especially Mike's, Bach's, and Suffrage, but also Shake's to support most of your "away" units and your navy), and soon you'll be wondering why you EVER avoided democracy.... It simply kicks ass like nothing else!

[This message has been edited by allan (edited August 23, 2001).]
 
In democracy, I recently kicked the sh*t out of a very large and aggressive fundy civ (with more cities than I had, even!). When they got down to about half the size they were, they switched to democracy themselves! They must have finally seen (too late) the light.... I used a little bribery (which they couldn't reciprocate), but most of my conquest came from deploying advanced stuff like stealth fighters and bombers, howitzers, and other stuff they'd NEVER have (athough they DID have a lot of alpine troops)....

So it can be done. You can't sneak attack or play too many dirty tricks, but so what? I never liked doing those things anyway....

Also, you'll often notice that when you conquer an enemy city, after the obligatory "disorder" in that city for the remainder of that turn, the very next turn it will often celebrate your new leadership with WLTP days--and soon surpass the enemy capital or largest enemy city in size! Even with few improvements left over from the attack. It really feels like you've "liberated" those people from their former oppressors!

 
I've been thinking of your topic over the past few days. I think that laying the ground work and building all the wonders and things early is important. Also you'll need to have your cities irrigated and connected with roads so A) They have food and B) Caravans get there easier. Also make sure they are well defended with a city wall and as early in the game as possible build all the luxury buildings coliseum and cathedral ect.
Cheers.
 
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