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Starting Luxuries Tier List

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ShadedSkies, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I think I can get a second monopoly in maybe 60% of my games, peacefully. But why should I spend my spare time in hunting another monopoly, if I didn't know which one it will be or maybe not even be able to get another?

    Hexxon is only really helpful, if you go warmongering. If I play this path, (rarely but in the last time a bit more often) Iam sure that I will be able to get more monopoly choices by conquests early enough. At the point in the game, when corporations are unlocked, Iam powerful enough to not care about any military benefit from Hexxon Refinery and instead pick more useful corporations like Centaurs with science and production boost or civilized jewelers which helps to keep me in permanent golden age.

    Hexxon is in any way a useless corporation, for me beaten even by the far underrated Twokay Food.
     
  2. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    You think? I reinstall the whole Civ5 when this happens :)

    On a serious note, I think it is quite difficult to make things balanced while not making them bland in the process. I think it adds to the fun factor that some things are sloghtly better than others. So as long as some luxes don't make certain starts an insta-win, I am fine that some monopolies are better than others (maybe worse yields from the resource tile itself can balance out the better effect of the Monopoly?).
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    These are my thoughts as well. Its okay for some luxuries to be better than others (though only to an extent), otherwise they'd be too similar.

    I kind of think coral does instantly win the game though, and there are too many 2-faith monopolies
     
    vyyt likes this.
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Why?
     
  5. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Strong when unimproved. Strong when improved. It more than doubles your early science while providing a gross amount of faith. God of the Sea is very good. Take progress (you should always take progress on a fishing luxury) and you get culture indirectly.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Coral provides Science only on the Monopoly, though...unless I'm mistaken?

    G
     
  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You can connect the monopoly by turn 50 most of the time on a standard sized map. And it gives faith on improvement, which is just nutty. The only other resource with faith on improvement is incense, which has a ton of weaknesses including terrible pre-improvement yields.
     
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I like that maratime resources in general are strong, because it takes more effort to connect them. I always worry about my fishing boats being pillaged too (and having to invest more hammers to each protect them with naval units, or rebuild them). Granted, it would be nice if Crabs were as strong as Coral.

    I guess coral could do with a minor nerf. I would prefer if the initial yields stayed the same though, I feel that maratime resources need that to balance the potential costs/risks associated.

    And I do think that 'instant win' is overstating the case. I've had games where I've had a very strong start only to find that someone on another continent is ahead of me (and everyone else). That's something I like about VP, that the AI tends to put up a decent competition (in general anyway).
     
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  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Who needs Kunas when you can have coral ?
     
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  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    I mainly dislike maritime luxuries, cause its so expensive hammer wise to establish the monopoly.
    On a standard map, you need atleast 5 of them, to get access to the monopoly benefit, makes together 200 or more production, while a world wonder only costs 185.
    So, I think its ok, if maritime luxuries are yield wise a bit stronger, but they should be stronger after improving, not right from the start.

    I hope we could take a look at all the terrible "gold" plantation luxuries.
    I simply dont see how 2:c5gold: from tobacco or silk and 2:c5gold: from improvement is competitive with +4:c5production: in total from tea or +2:c5gold:+2:c5production: in total from gems.
    Another point is the amount of yields from the buildings.
    2 additional yields from ancient era building (market/forge/stone works) is fine. But all the buildings in the next two eras are also adding only 2 yields. Adding +1:c5food:+1:c5gold: for citrus in the medieval era (by garden) isnt the same as adding +1:c5food:+1:c5gold: for sugar in ancient era (by market). They should give atleast double the amount, to be comparable. And Bank/Grocery shouldnt only give +3 yields, but more likely 5 or 6.
     
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  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Tobacco's strength is that you get 2 faith from the monopoly which is very powerful. I would like to see Silk provide something other than gold (and a single culture point) though.
    I think you are overstating the case a little (e.g. Citrus is very powerful already and Sugar isn't that great, compare the monopoly bonuses), 5 or 6 yields seems kind of silly to me. I agree that luxuries that bonuses which only come into play late in the game could be grant a little more though.
     
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  13. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Take for example the Carthago UA.
    Would say, gaining 125 :c5gold: by founding a city in ancient era is comparable with gaining 125 :c5gold: for founding a city in medieval era? I don't think so.

    Here are some numbers:
    The Spearman is unlocked at the same tech tier than the market and costs 70:c5production:. The pikeman is unlocked at the same tech tier than the garden and cost 135:c5production:.
    Double the cost (taken from the wiki page), but the yields for luxuries from buildings are the same.

    Iam not even taking into account, that the market is a core building and the garden not, and that the market is generating yields a long time before the benefit from the garden/bank starts.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the idea behind Tobacco is you get a great monopoly, in exchange for a terrible tile. The problem is, other luxuries get good tiles and good monopolies. Wine is pretty much directly superior.

    Tobacco is one of the only luxuries I can actually struggle to succeed one. Like yea you can bash gems because the bank is late, but I don't find succeeding on gems difficult.
     
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  15. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Gems are not that bad imo, it's just inferior to the rest of mining resources that it looks so terrible compared to silver, copper, gold or even salt that yields food on a mine.
     
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  16. Tantro

    Tantro Chieftain

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    Post medieval buildings that add to luxury improvements could definitely use some juicing up a bit to make them more attractive to the player and make city locations more meaningful.

    Looking at you.. gems.
     
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  17. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Yeah, mining resources in general are pretty decent. I'm not saying I'd object to a buff to gems, but it doesn't need to be a big one.

    IMO Ivory is the resource in most need of a buff. I mentioned that I like war elephants a lot, I only need one ivory for that (which I can often trade for), so having it as my monopoly is unrewarding.

    I think Crabs, Silk, and Amber could all benefit from small tweaks as well.
     
  18. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Warlord

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    Not to be completely off topic, but

    At first I thought these were just typos but I've noticed you specifically type it this way in every single post you make, so I have to ask...you know "I am" is two words, right?

    On topic: buff Ivory, Silk, and Amber, and boats would probably all be in a better place if God of the Sea got a nerf. But I agree that aiming for 100% equal balance is boring and unrealistic anyway.
     
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  19. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    If you look at the resources site of the VP wiki, the only thought is, someone has used a random generator and has set gold appearance to 50%.

    I find it strange, that some luxuries add only 1 yield as base and some up to 3. Same for the yields with an improvement, some add 1, some 3. Some give only 2:c5gold:, others add +1:c5production:1:c5culture:, which isn't comparable.

    Maybe for some people this is an interesting flavor aspect, but I find it irritating and not really balanced. Couldnt we set a rule set to find an acceptable balance?

    1. Define :c5food::c5gold::c5production: as weak yields and :c5culture::c5science::c5faith:  as strong yields
    2. Each monopoly gets 2 components, a flat yield and a percentual modifier, both have to be picked from the 2 different yield definitions (+2:c5food: and +5%:c5culture: / +2:c5science: and +5%:c5gold:)
    3. Each luxury add 2 base and 2 improvement yields
    4. Plantation luxuries either appear always in jungle or on flat land; no luxury, except furs and truffles appear behind forests
    5. Forest and jungle luxuries always get 2 weak yields as base (cause natural +1:c5production: by forest/jungle)
    6. Plantation on open terrain and quarry luxuries always get atleast 1 strong yield as base (cause they have the longest tech path to be unlocked)
    7. Maritime luxuries have atleast 1 strong yield as base and 1 with an improvement, (cause their improvement is expensive)
    8. Yields from buildings for luxuries are based on the relative production cost of the standard melee unit at the same time frame; +1 weak yield for non-core buildings (circus, garden...)
     
  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I'm reminded of you showing off your orderly farms with roads running in straight lines :).

    I appreciate where you are coming from, but I think such a methodological approach might make luxuries all feel a bit same-y rather than being something unique or special.

    For example, I like that there are luxuries that some peole feel are strong and other people feel are weak. That's ideal to me. It reflects that people have different attitudes toward the game and favour different playstyles, so we value different things.

    Perhaps we can find a middle ground? There seems to be some concensus that certain luxuries should be a bit stronger.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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