Starting Luxuries Tier List

[CrazyG]

Yes, please! This is probably the only thing that still annoys me about the early game. I don't think it should be at mining, but it currently comes way too late in the game.

I actually meant to type "mining", not bronze working.

 

[pineappledan]

I actually meant to type "mining", not bronze working.

lol, I was so confused. It’s already on bronze working

I actually disagree, I like @black213 ’s slash and burn proposal

 

[CrazyG]

lol, I was so confused. It’s already on bronze working

I actually disagree, I agree with @black213’s slash and burn proposal

I'll take the slash and burn over the current situation.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Don't get me wrong I would never exchange Tea for Cotton I just said that they are not all bad and getting 6-7 Cotton plantations might actually be quite good - certainly not demanding of a restart.

Also gold early is a lot better then people give it credit for. It is not as effective as production, but since you can pool it together it gets a bit better - you can invest it into new cities to get them running faster and 3 cities working a couple of 5-7 gold tiles might give you quite a reasonable military while still working on infrastructure (because of authority).

The pooling effect of gold is of course a big positive point, 5 tea split over 4 cities didn't give you that great option to produce a military unit in each city while you can buy every unit with gold in your capital. But if you do this, it's another drain of resources away from your already weaker satelite cities towards your capital.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

lol, I was so confused. It’s already on bronze working

I actually disagree, I agree with @black213’s slash and burn proposal

Other solution, chopping is always possible, but very slow. Researching calender or bronze working increase the spread and rise the hammers you get by chopping.
(chopping as base needs 13 turns and give 5 hammer, both techs each decrease the time by 3 turns and rise the yields by 10)

 

[JamesNinelives]

I think the Grocer stands fine on its own, just the +1 happiness alone is very important at that point in the game. This is not me saying resource bonuses should be removed from the Grocer...just that I think we have the flexibility to do so without invalidating the building.

Personally I see the happiness as just being a balance to the larger number of people to keep happy as the city grows.

I'm glad other people feel the building is valuable though.

 

[CrazyG]

Actually I find grocers extremely valuable since the changes to food and happiness. In fact, I usually build grocers before customs houses, so I'm not sure if moving the luxury bonuses would really be that efficient.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

I actually meant to type "mining", not bronze working.

Oh sorry I got my techs confused there Anyway my point was more about the fact that I don't think chopping should be on one of the first techs. Maybe it could be moved somewhere closer to plantations (even to Calendar perhaps? - I always found it weird that Jungle and Forest required different techs to clear) but I just feel like chopping might be slightly too good in the very early turns of the game.

 

[MarvelOfRain]

The pooling effect of gold is of course a big positive point, 5 tea split over 4 cities didn't give you that great option to produce a military unit in each city while you can buy every unit with gold in your capital. But if you do this, it's another drain of resources away from your already weaker satelite cities towards your capital.

Not really - you get more units + get some of them earlier. You can use those to tribute city-states/take over your neighbor - the snowball should at least somewhat make up for some of the missing infrastructure (get more units, invest into buildings). Also, you cannot use production to upgrade so good mix of gold satellites and strong production capital might actually put you in a stronger position when it comes to your military, then bunch of high production cities which will spend a bunch of turns developing anyway.

Again it is not as good as Tea, but I don't think the resources need any changes.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I am currently designing a point system to evaluate which luxury should be buffed and which one nerfed. How would you set the value of each yield type in comparison with each other?
Currently I would set:
2
3
4
6
Would you set percentual modifiers the same way you would do with flat yields?
Based for era ancient/classic/medieval.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Oh sorry I got my techs confused there Anyway my point was more about the fact that I don't think chopping should be on one of the first techs. Maybe it could be moved somewhere closer to plantations (even to Calendar perhaps? - I always found it weird that Jungle and Forest required different techs to clear) but I just feel like chopping might be slightly too good in the very early turns of the game.

I don't usually have a worker in the very early turns of the game unless I delay something else important. I guess if you start on forest and can get the hammers back quickly it might be exploitable. I don't know that would happen all that often though.

Granted, I'm relatively happy with how things are now. I just don't see moving the chopping tech earlier as a big deal. My only complaint would be that chopping jungle would be such a pain by comparison lol.

 

[Stalker0]

Something to keep in mind is the stone works type luxuries come with an added bonus. Being able to build a stone works, especially in satellite cities, allows for prod ITRs early in the game. This can be great for wonder rushing.

Its another reason I think Salt is a very good luxury to start with.

 

[Tantro]

I would be happy if chop tree/jungle was combined into a the same action and placed into the same tech as 'improve plantation'. Remove the hammers for all I care, I just want to be able to improve plantation resources locked behind forest at a reasonable rate. I think that would fix some of the imbalances discussed and cut down on my restartatis.

 

[Stalker0]

I do think the most intuitive solution is to make calendar take care of all chopping. Simple and easy.

Now the main counter is that this makes bronze working even weaker than it is now. I agree with that, but I think the answer lies in some other adjustment...keeping chopping in an unintuitive place that creates weird scenarios with luxuries is not the right answer.

 

[pineappledan]

Now the main counter is that this makes bronze working even weaker than it is now. I agree with that, but I think the answer lies in some other adjustment...keeping chopping in an unintuitive place that creates weird scenarios with luxuries is not the right answer.

What about the proposal to make chopping come earlier, but only the production from chopping is unlocked at bronze?

Maybe make chopping unlock at turn 0 (agriculture), with no bonus, but then give a stronger bonus than we currently have at bronze? Maybe 40 in your territory/25 outside?

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

What about the proposal to make chopping come earlier, but only the production from chopping is unlocked at bronze?

Maybe make chopping unlock at turn 0 (agriculture), with no bonus, but then give a stronger bonus than we currently have at bronze? Maybe 40 in your territory/25 outside?

I'd love to try that, production from jungles would still be at calender ?

 

[Stalker0]

What about the proposal to make chopping come earlier, but only the production from chopping is unlocked at bronze?

Maybe make chopping unlock at turn 0 (agriculture), with no bonus, but then give a stronger bonus than we currently have at bronze? Maybe 40 in your territory/25 outside?

I don't have a strong opposition to that, though you yourself mentioned concerns about more mechanics being added and how new players already have to learn a lot. A slash/burn mechanic would take a bit more understanding than a "get this tech and chop all stuff" idea. Ultimately the slash/burn still has my same concern about bronze working being weakened, so I'm not sure if the mechanic really gives me that much more than just letting workers chop all at calendar.

 

[pineappledan]

how would it be complicated? It sounds less complicated to me. Both forest and jungle would be cleared from turn 0. The chop wouldn't be split between calendar and bronze working anymore. Only marsh clearing would be on its own.

- can clear forest/jungle at turn 0
- can get production from clearing forest/jungle at bronze

I can't think what you would give bronze working instead while still keeping bronze worthwhile to research. If you move both chops to calendar then bronze is worthless, but if you move both chops to bronze then a jungle plantation start is even more of a reroll than forests plantations. If chop was made stronger then maybe it becomes enough of a carrot on its own for rushing tech for wonders/early conquest?

Am I making this difficult to understand?

 

[Tantro]

What about the proposal to make chopping come earlier, but only the production from chopping is unlocked at bronze?

Maybe make chopping unlock at turn 0 (agriculture), with no bonus, but then give a stronger bonus than we currently have at bronze? Maybe 40 in your territory/25 outside?

I like this. Call the first action "slash-and-burn", later techs refines land clearing and utilizes the material. Historically appropriate. Everybody wins.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I'm not a big fan of the slash-and-burn idea, and suggest that it still requires at least one tech to unlock (e.g. mining).

That said, I would be willing to try it out. I'm glad that we are looking at options.