Statue of Zeus vs. Knights Templar

[Aceman101]

Well all my workers had railroaded and all the improvements were done. I was at war with 4 civs at a time. And I had a huge army. I am sending troops to all civs at the same time. I know this isn't a good strategy but I got like 400 cavs and 50 cruisers 12 carriers 18 battleships 100 artillery and about 30 infantry.

 

[greygamer]

The main reason is that 3 Crusaders fill out a new Army to become a 7-4-2 and later a 10-6-2 (with Pentagon). If I'm in a warfare based game there's usually a couple of MGLs appearing early in the MA that become armies and I'd rather load them with Crusaders than Knights. The extra movement point allows them to stay with my Knight unit and protects them from virtually all AI counter-attacks. And at 7 (or 10) attacking they can take the top defender (or 2) off most cities up until Infantry arrive on the scene. My other reason is that it's quite rare to have access to ivory, so SoZ just isn't available.

My thinking entirely, also they can act as 'free' MPs in your cities and if you are in Feudalism you are unlikely to be bothered by the unit support costs. Do not underestimate the power of the fortress

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

The Statue of Zeus is extremely useful, because it seems that the ACs get produced more often because of shorter turn times, and they seem to generate more leaders in my experience. However, free 70-shield pikemen/medieval infantry/worker combos are pretty useful too. Use them to protect MIs and artillery, especially during a siege to build forts. Knights are overall better, but free powerful units are never a drag. Their 5 atk can also save you if those muskets just aren't dying. You can also disband them to get free shields. ACs, however, can just rush the enemy before a serious defense is arrayed. They both have their merits, it's just the player's style that will decide which one is better.

Edit: Sorry I just noticed that I bumped this thread. Continue debating if you wish, if not just forget it.

Edit: Sorry again I saw that the last post bumped it, not me.

 

[Desertsnow]

Thread-bumping is always cool if you have something to contribute.
As I said, way back when, I like both, and to have both means you can kick the AI's booty militarily if you have to--or if you just want to --but given the choice I lean toward SoZ and Ancient Cavalry. As one moves up in levels and starts playing at higher difficulty, it becomes more necessary to push back the boundaries by force in the early going.

 

[AznWarlord]

Holy crap, I asked this question as a total noob. I'm slaying Monarchs and now, I've decided that you're gonna need both because A) Your opponents build unit like crazy and B) If you don't build it they will and if they will . . . you might get a heart attack when the Omega stack appears on the horizon.

If they pile up, well do as i said earlier and disband them for precious shields. 17 per crusader and I guess 12 per cav, which is useful if you need to build temples to rack up the culture before captured cities jump back to their nation. Or you need courthouse because you're tired of getting 1 shield when you're making 10+.

 

[pickle]

i think of a couple of things
first the units, speed is king - being able to strike out from the fortifications and come back is really valuable in minimising losses in a defensive/holding war. fortifications are useful but once you get to the stage where you are getting crusaders a pike is just as good for defending the choke point, then there is when you are on the attack, in the earlier ages speed is essential for covering the distance between the empires, if you have a mobile army you can cut off their counter attack well before they get near your cities.

next is the other wonders you could be building, if you can get it pyramids is better than the SoZ, on a sea map Great Lighthouse is great. but for KT you could be building Sun Tzu's or Leo's instead, in both cases there are possibly better options but SoZ edges in as the better there

lastly i the tech, maths is on the way to currency and also gives you cats, chivalry is a dead end tech which can usually be traded for (a civ with a knight UU will research it for you)

SoZ, but i would generally go for something completely different

 

[Dezzilisk]

I'd say SoZ, I recently played a game where i was dominating everyone in the AA with Gallic swordsmen as the celts.

Then the russians declared and I forgot they had SoZ, Ancient cavalry stack came in and got to my capital before i could recall my swordsmen.

I should have built it myself

 

[sercer88]

Yeah, the thing is, though...that you have to have Ivory. I almost never find myself with Ivory for some reason. OTOH, I rarely research Chivalry...

 

[Desertsnow]

Yes, the AI will outexpand you oftener at Monarch unless you have a good start. It wasn't until I tried Regent that I really learned war tactics (I play Monarch nowadays). You'll need to expand your territory more often by the 'pointy stick' method, and military wonders help immensely.
I do usually try to get both, if possible, to prevent the AI from getting them if nothing else. I use Sun Tzu usually as a placeholder for KT (by the time it comes around I usually have plenty of barracks). Failing that, I build Leo's so that I can upgrade my knights to cavalry on the cheap. Knights are expensive to train, but well worth it, and even without Leo's they are upgraded to Cavalry for 30g. You do the math.
As you move up, you will have to be more careful and prudent as to which Wonders you build. Knights Templar, Sun Tzu, and Leo's Workshop all become available in the early medieval era, and the player will have to decide which one is best under the circumstances. If you've expanded quickly and lack barracks in your frontierland, then go with Sun Tzu. If you're short on cash and need to upgrade, or plan on doing heavy mass upgrading, go with Leo's. If you need actual combat units, go with KT.

 

[Optional]

I find this thread has led to some interesting observations, although I always found the initial question: 'Statue of Zeus or Knights Templar?' a bit silly. That question doesn't come up in the game!
Are there players that have Ivory and do not build Statue of Zeus? Maybe if your neighbor builds it, not too far away, you will let him build it, while you are building some military to grab it away from him once it's completed, yes. But you do want it if you can get it.

I'm far less certain about the Knights Templar. I tend to build it if I don't have iron, so that at least I've got some punch. I'm not even sure it I should. What is best if you don't have iron? Researching Chivalry and building Knights Templar or beelining to Invention so that you can build Longbowmen as soon as possible?

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Actually, just try to get them both if you can, and SoZ instead of TK if it comes down to that.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

actually, the AI will often research chivalry.

The AI will usually prefer chivalry over theology, though after both invention and gunpowder. You can steer them that way by giving an AI with monotheism fuedalism or vice versa. as long as they dont' have engineering, they will usually go for chivalry.

 

[Nergal]

I've noticed that a lot at the higher levels, AI with Chiv and then KT. I dont mind, its easy enough to obsolete it aoon enough. Providing you have Ivory then SoZ is a must but one thing that puzzles me, do AC have some kind of a bonus vs spears and pikes. I've seen AC mince city defenses that have stopped proper Cavalry.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

That extra HP makes all the difference, and once again, the RNG can , so don't expect too much from them .

 

[azzaman333]

KT only if I don't have iron, SoZ every time I have Ivory.

 

[MAS]

Actually, if you compare the win/loss rate, you'll see that one extra HP is roughly the same as +1 to both att and def.

So a full health 3/2/2 AC can be considered a 4/3/2 unit. Consider that!
The SoZ is 200 shields, roughly 3 knights, (3*70=210) but it can potentially build many knights. If you have ivory, its worth a shot.

 

[Light-Giver]

Templar all the way, they are powerfull for their time and they can build a castle if their boged down, if you have enough of them the castle usaly comes in 1-2 turns, who cairs if their slow i can handle a war thats a few turns longer cant you?

 

[Desertsnow]

Actually, if you compare the win/loss rate, you'll see that one extra HP is roughly the same as +1 to both att and def.

So a full health 3/2/2 AC can be considered a 4/3/2 unit. Consider that!
The SoZ is 200 shields, roughly 3 knights, (3*70=210) but it can potentially build many knights. If you have ivory, its worth a shot.

Which makes them roughly equivalent to the Crusaders of KT (5/3/1), just about an age earlier.
I do like the Crusaders (distaste for the actual historical ones notwithstanding); they're the best attacker available until Cavalry come along. On the other hand, I like fast units.

 

[anaxagoras]

I just don't think there's much doubt that SoZ is better - if you happen to have Ivory. SoZ can be a game-breaker. KT is nice to have, but hardly a game-breaker.

Given the choice between KT and Sun-Tzu, I'll take Sun-Tzu. (Yes, obviously, I'd rather have both. Dare to dream.) Yes, your core cities should have barracks by the time you get Sun-Tzu. But at higher difficulties, it is really nice to have one-turn healing in every city. Also, those highly corrupt cities can now help you crank out military units instead of cannon. If you hit cavalry and then put the breaks on research, you can cash rush a veteran cav or two close to the front every single turn. Conquest goes really fast at that point. This strategy works great at Emperor. Not sure about higher than that.

Of course, it is usually better to capture Sun-Tzu's, if you can, but that's a different issue.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Actually, if you compare the win/loss rate, you'll see that one extra HP is roughly the same as +1 to both att and def.

So a full health 3/2/2 AC can be considered a 4/3/2 unit. Consider that!
The SoZ is 200 shields, roughly 3 knights, (3*70=210) but it can potentially build many knights. If you have ivory, its worth a shot.

The only thing is that they'll lose more HP, so they're not as effective. An army loaded up with them is however, a beast (up to 5/3/3 w/o MI and 6/4/3 w/ MI).