Steam - love or hate?

[blind biker]

Do you really think that is a good reason for everyone to be required to use it?

Yeah. If Steam is so freaking good, why isn't it optional?

 

[aatami]

All Steam has done is show that many brilliant Civ players are incredibly uninformed and paranoid about gaming.

This. IMO I love steam.

Why are you so afraid of steam? Why are you making such a big deal about something you would benefit of..?

 

[The_J]

Fear of monopolism, dependence on a third party, dependence on the internet, fear of loss of privacy, forced patching....er...i guess that's the list.

 

[blind biker]

^^The above, plus there have been at least a few cases of people losing their licenses on Steam, after being (allegedly unjustly) accused of cheating in multiplayer. Knowing that Big Bro can revoke all your licenses at the push of a pair of buttons must be unsettling.

And as I said: if Steam is so great, let it win on its own merits and make it optional. Let people have a no-DRM/Steam and a Steamed version both available on Valve, and let's see which one do they chose. I guess the no-DRM/Steam version gets more than just a few votes.

 

[Kerosene31]

Steam is required because they are trying to sell you more PC games. There it is. There is the deep, dark secret of Steam.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Yeah. If Steam is so freaking good, why isn't it optional?

Because you have no idea how much it costs to implement Steam and a non-Steam equivalent technology.

This. IMO I love steam.

Why are you so afraid of steam? Why are you making such a big deal about something you would benefit of..?

Because as said above, they're uninformed, or paranoid.

Fear of monopolism, dependence on a third party, dependence on the internet, fear of loss of privacy, forced patching....er...i guess that's the list.

Hey welcome to the software world. Do you use Windows? Wups, that meets your criteria. Do you use Linux? Unless you sorted through the source, and then compiled it yourself, you meet the criteria. OSX? Don't get me started.

^^The above, plus there have been at least a few cases of people losing their licenses on Steam, after being (allegedly unjustly) accused of cheating in multiplayer. Knowing that Big Bro can revoke all your licenses at the push of a pair of buttons must be unsettling.

And as I said: if Steam is so great, let it win on its own merits and make it optional. Let people have a no-DRM/Steam and a Steamed version both available on Valve, and let's see which one do they chose. I guess the no-DRM/Steam version gets more than just a few votes.

Please point these cases out, I would love to see them. So far I have not heard of a single one where people lose their Steam account because they got caught by VAC.

Why is it not optional? Lets say it takes 1000 man-hours to implement Steam and integrate it into the game (a la Civ 5). Now, each of those man hours costs the company wages for the developers, infrastructure, release delays, etc. Its expensive.

Now, to get the same game without Steam, the developer has to implement the same thing as Steam, but on their own (because if Steam is part of the game, you're gonna have Steam-like features no matter what) they now must expend the time to first develop the framework (Lets go with a conservative 10,000 man-hours) and then the 1000 man-hours to also implement it. So the non-Steam platform costs them 1000% more. I don't know what world you come from where that isnt a bad business decision.

Steam is required because they are trying to sell you more PC games. There it is. There is the deep, dark secret of Steam.

And because it provides saving capability, integrated community features, easy access to patching, easy distribution (practically free even), achievements, multiplayer, list goes on.

 

[blind biker]

Why is it not optional? Lets say it takes 1000 man-hours to implement Steam and integrate it into the game (a la Civ 5). Now, each of those man hours costs the company wages for the developers, infrastructure, release delays, etc. Its expensive.

Now, to get the same game without Steam, the developer has to implement the same thing as Steam, but on their own (because if Steam is part of the game, you're gonna have Steam-like features no matter what) they now must expend the time to first develop the framework (Lets go with a conservative 10,000 man-hours) and then the 1000 man-hours to also implement it. So the non-Steam platform costs them 1000% more. I don't know what world you come from where that isnt a bad business decision.

To Steamify a game, you have to add some API here and there, but no biggie. That's why there is a Civ IV version on Steam, but of course, there is also a non-DRM, non Steam version of it, existing from before. Valve could offer both for download. And if the Steam version of Civ IV was so much better, people would vote with their wallets. But there isn't such option; on Valve you can only download Steamed versions, even when non-Steamed versions exist.

It's not because the Steamed version is better for the consumer: it's because Valve can have a firm grip on the customer's balls when they purchase a Steam game.

 

[Anthropoid]

It's not because the Steamed version is better for the consumer: it's because Valve can have a firm grip on the customer's balls when they purchase a Steam game.

That is so compelling and intuitively accurate it absolutely deserves to be quoted for emphasis.

+!

 

[Karstedt]

I don't like having to use any additional software other than the game. I don't like digital distribution; I want my old fashioned hard copy that I can dust off and reinstall 10 years from now if I so desire. I don't like requiring an internet connection for anything but inherently online games. And I despise any kind of activation.

 

[Genocidicbunny]

To Steamify a game, you have to add some API here and there, but no biggie. That's why there is a Civ IV version on Steam, but of course, there is also a non-DRM, non Steam version of it, existing from before. Valve could offer both for download. And if the Steam version of Civ IV was so much better, people would vote with their wallets. But there isn't such option; on Valve you can only download Steamed versions, even when non-Steamed versions exist.

It's not because the Steamed version is better for the consumer: it's because Valve can have a firm grip on the customer's balls when they purchase a Steam game.

Quite wrong. Civ 4 is distributed on Steam, but it not build on it. Civ 5 is built on it. To simply distribute a game on Steam is fairly simple as you say, which is why many games have a Steam and non-Steam version available. When you build a game using Steam from the ground up though, it is not nearly as easy as "adding some API here and there" (Which by the way is wrong, API is a programming interface, not a specific technology)

Take it from a programmer, it's not nearly as simple and non-time-consuming as you think it is.

As for your second comment there: Which company these days does not want a firm grip on the proverbial balls? All mass-market games are meant to put a strangle on the consumers choices and abilities to use the game however they like. Its the nature of the business. If you are going to vilify Steam for doing it, vilify all of the other major publishers and developers. They're no better.

That is so compelling and intuitively accurate it absolutely deserves to be quoted for emphasis.

+!

No, it's sensationalist, has no supporting evidence and one can almost say blatantly wrong. Quoting it just further spreads the fud, but judging by your posts in this thread, you are content with doing so.

I don't like having to use any additional software other than the game. I don't like digital distribution; I want my old fashioned hard copy that I can dust off and reinstall 10 years from now if I so desire. I don't like requiring an internet connection for anything but inherently online games. And I despise any kind of activation.

Sorry, the 1990's are past. I agree that one should have choices when it comes to their copies of software, but I do not agree that this is an issue with Steam alone. From a relative standpoint, Steam does things pretty well, but if you do not agree with me on that one, you should take a look at the games industry as a whole. The whole lot of it is messed up and heading the same DRM-out-the-wazoo way that people are screaming Steam is. Don't focus the blame on one company, a company that is trying to make the best of the current trends too, when the whole industry is at fault.

 

[Anthropoid]

As for your second comment there: Which company these days does not want a firm grip on the proverbial balls?

I refer you to this:
quote from 2009 interview of Brad Wardell on Gamestop

GameStop recently broke the street date on Demigod, and you've said that it could be a test case for just how rampant piracy is. Is it a problem?
We know that piracy exists in massive levels. We don't put any copy protection on our retail CDs. We do know, because our games connect to our servers, how many people are playing the pirated version. It's huge. I mean HUGE.

Demigod may be the most popular game in a very long time based on the numbers we're seeing. That said, our position has been that 98 percent of those people would never have bought the game. I don't want to do anything that inconveniences our legitimate customers because even if I stop all piracy, I don't agree that it would noticably increase our sales.

Piracy is more of an annoying thing. It's an ego thing. You put your heart and soul into a game and you see someone playing it online who stole it. It pisses you off. You're just really mad. You have to take a step back and say, "if you had stopped them from pirating it, would they have bought it?" The answer is probably no.

Wardell sounds like a smart business man to me. Respectful, reasonable, and gracious too.

But then, I guess some people actually like having it locked up in a cage

 

[Genocidicbunny]

I refer you to this:
quote from 2009 interview of Brad Wardell on Gamestop



Wardell sounds like a smart business man to me. Respectful, reasonable, and gracious too.

What makes you think that Gabe Newell isn't?

With that being said, the sales numbers on Steam vs Impulse don't lie. Steam is doing a whole lot better. I approve of what Wardell is doing, but a smart businessman he may not be. If you cannot get any exposure, any market share, then your business philosophy is really all for naught. And I can guarantee you that Stardock wants its share of the pie, they're just doing it a different way. They put on a velvet glove before they firmly grip your consumer balls.

But then, I guess some people actually like having it locked up in a cage

And that is just uncalled for. I don't like DRM just as much as you, but I also have the benefit of seeing the other side of the debate instead of blindly dismissing it. With that, Steam is a fairly good compromise.

 

[Anthropoid]

Some people have no sense of humor

 

[Genocidicbunny]

Some people have no sense of humor

Some people have nothing to say

 

[The_J]

Because as said above, they're uninformed, or paranoid.

I think i have to disagree ^^.

Hey welcome to the software world.

OSS .

Do you use Windows? Wups, that meets your criteria.

3rd party...no.
Internet...no.
Forced patching...no.
Fear of monopolism...doesn't count, there's already one.
Fear of loss of privacy...okay, there you have a point.

Why is it not optional? Lets say it takes 1000 man-hours to implement Steam and integrate it into the game (a la Civ 5). Now, each of those man hours costs the company wages for the developers, infrastructure, release delays, etc. Its expensive.

I guess you're talking about Valve, right?
Because usage of Steamworks is for companies free, at least that's what one of the biggest Valve fan ever is always telling me.

And because it provides saving capability, integrated community features, easy access to patching, easy distribution (practically free even), achievements, multiplayer, list goes on.

I think you forgot the disadvantages here...

 

[Maniacal]

Internet...no.

It still asks for an internet activation, if that isn't possible you have to call customer support which isn't always that quick.

Forced patching...no.

Unless I'm completely off my rocker today, I'm pretty sure Windows has forced patches. Yesterday it popped up that STUPID window telling me I have to restart my computer so it can apply the update, and I could only put it off for 15 minutes before it would pop up again.

Fear of monopolism...doesn't count, there's already one.

Fear of loss of privacy...okay, there you have a point.

I guess you're talking about Valve, right?
Because usage of Steamworks is for companies free, at least that's what one of the biggest Valve fan ever is always telling me.

The licensing or whatever to use Steam and Steamworks in your game is free, it costs the developer money since they still have to pay their staff to implement Steamworks into the game (but, because Steamworks has a number of different (and optional, the developer gets to choose which ones they want to use) features built in/supported already it is supposed to save the developer from having to develop all those features themselves. If a game uses Steamworks, than all PC versions of that game are going to use it. It would be stupid to have Steamworks and non-Steamworks versions as for the non-Steamworks one they would have to also develope all the features that were already provided by Steamworks themselves, costing the developer a lot more money in wages and time used.

No idea whom this "valve's biggest fan ever" is supposed to be, everyone I talk to who is a fan certainly has their own dislikes about different things that Valve does *coughtf2hat-economycough*.

 

[The_J]

It still asks for an internet activation, if that isn't possible you have to call customer support which isn't always that quick.

Telefone activation for XP works flawless, and i have two older win version which do not even require this .

Unless I'm completely off my rocker today, I'm pretty sure Windows has forced patches. Yesterday it popped up that STUPID window telling me I have to restart my computer so it can apply the update, and I could only put it off for 15 minutes before it would pop up again.

You can easily disable this.
On XP and Vista just use XPAntiSpy, no idea for 7 .

The licensing or whatever to use Steam and Steamworks in your game is free, it costs the developer money since they still have to pay their staff to implement Steamworks into the game (but, because Steamworks has a number of different (and optional, the developer gets to choose which ones they want to use) features built in/supported already it is supposed to save the developer from having to develop all those features themselves. If a game uses Steamworks, than all PC versions of that game are going to use it. It would be stupid to have Steamworks and non-Steamworks versions as for the non-Steamworks one they would have to also develope all the features that were already provided by Steamworks themselves, costing the developer a lot more money in wages and time used.

But if then implementing the framework needs 1000 man hours, then they must have done something really wrong. You don't create an easily usable DRM system, which is, claimed, incredibly great, which then needs 4 months to get integrated.

No idea whom this "valve's biggest fan ever" is supposed to be, everyone I talk to who is a fan certainly has their own dislikes about different things that Valve does *coughtf2hat-economycough*.

Sorry, meant another person, not here, which has actually a valve product fansite, and who insists on that.

 

[Maniacal]

Telefone activation for XP works flawless, and i have to older win version which do not even require this .

Good to know. I've never tried installing an OS yet myself (been procrastinating).

You can easily disable this.
On XP and Vista just use XPAntiSpy, no idea for 7 .

Is that a 3rd party application? Windows 7 at least gives up much lnoger time windows, it can be put off for up to 4 hours.

But if then implementing the framework needs 1000 man hours, then they must have done something really wrong. You don't create an easily usable DRM system, which is, claimed, incredibly great, which then needs 4 months to get integrated.

A guess I'd assume, but I highly doubt you just "plug it into the game". Games are software programs, not a piece of hardware (where a lot of stuff is plug, quickly install drivers and play!). The coders/programmers/whatever would still have to implement the features and Steamworks into the game, but it would be faster than building all the features from scratch. Someone who actually does programming can probably answer it better. I assume they would still be doing a similar amount of similar work to implement the features if they built them themselves anyways.

Sorry, meant another person, not here, which has actually a valve product fansite, and who insists on that.

Good to know, I didn't think you were making a snide comment but I wasn't sure (it is the internet).

 

[The_J]

Edit: I never noticed you as "fan", and i try to follow the rules which i have to enforce myself .

Good to know. I've never tried installing an OS yet myself (been procrastinating).

Not really different to other software, just always click "continue" .

Is that a 3rd party application?

Via msconfig you can disable the service for the auto update, but i can't look the exact names up, i don't have admin rights on my account for surfing.
I think there are multiple applications involved in the whole thing.

A guess I'd assume, but I highly doubt you just "plug it into the game". Games are software programs, not a piece of hardware (where a lot of stuff is plug, quickly install drivers and play!). The coders/programmers/whatever would still have to implement the features and Steamworks into the game, but it would be faster than building all the features from scratch. Someone who actually does programming can probably answer it better. I assume they would still be doing a similar amount of similar work to implement the features if they built them themselves anyways.

I'm a programmer, and i would never ever use a third party component when just adding it will cost months. If the basic setup isn't done in 2 weeks, then the documentation is probably...not worth the name, and this shouldn't be the case for a such widely used framework.

 

[Senethro]

Edit: Oh wow, I must have been looking at some history version of this thread as suddenly a days worth of posts appeared after replying everythings been replied to already.

plus there have been at least a few cases of people losing their licenses on Steam, after being (allegedly unjustly) accused of cheating in multiplayer.

Hacking a game and getting caught loses you the ability to play on cheat protected multiplayer servers of all games on the same engine, hacking Steam will lose your account.

Would you like to provide an example of someone losing their game license due to hacking or is this particular piece of misinformation going to keep coming up?

And as I said: if Steam is so great, let it win on its own merits and make it optional. Let people have a no-DRM/Steam and a Steamed version both available on Valve, and let's see which one do they chose. I guess the no-DRM/Steam version gets more than just a few votes.

Yeah, how does the no-Steam version get multiplayer or other networked features, the tech support costs of explaining to people who don't read the box that their version doesn't do multiplayer, doubling the QA and extra costs associated with maintaining 2 versions and oh you know all the rest, its been said often enough.

Unless you can present bigger financial costs to a company than those associated with having multiple versions, your hopes are not going to be realised.